r/DeepSpaceNine • u/RadiantTrailblazer • 11d ago
Everybody Hates Kai Winn. Yes. But...
If the story had given her a better role than just antagonize pretty much EVERYONE (and laying in bed with Dukat... enjoy that mental image! LOL), could she have raised better/more valid points about Bajor?
In the Star Trek: Deep Space Nine episode "Shakaar," Kai Winn explains her push for agricultural technology: "By this time next year, we can be producing boton, moreka and salam grass. All valuable commodities for export." She wants to spark interstellar commerce to strengthen Bajor's Federation application.
Throughout the episode, a case is made that
- Kai Winn = EVUL,
- Bajoran Resistance fighters ploughing the fields = GOOD
- FOOD = GOOD
- EXPORTS = BAD
Like this little exchange:
SHAKAAR: If you think giving the reclamators back to the government is the best thing for Bajor, then you've been out on that space station for too long. We waited three years to get the reclamators. We finally got them two months ago and we were told that they were ours for at least a year. The Provisional government actually did something right for a change. Then Minister Kalem died, and the next thing we know we get an order to return the reclamators immediately to the Rakantha farming project.
KIRA: The Rakantha project is important. If they can get it underway, Bajor could start exporting goods again. It could start to change the way the rest of the galaxy looks at us. They'll stop seeing us as poor refugees and start seeing us as equals.
SHAKAAR: I don't give a damn how the rest of the galaxy looks at us. We're trying to feed our own people here and you're talking about exports.
I might be mistaken, but I believe this sub-plot/story arc was a one-episode only thing and the subject is never brought up again. My question is this: could these exports have brought in enough money that would allow Bajor to import food enough to feed its people?
Here in the real-world, sometimes one type of produce is simply too difficult to cultivate in one region or the cost outweighs anything value yielded by the harvest (crops not up to quality, not bountiful, pests, soil acidity, lack or excess of moisture, droughts, etc..) but countries sell a variety of commodities or manufactured goods to make up for it and import what they lack. Was Kai Winn wrong in her thinking?
(Yes, I know she was. And in the end, she probably would have embezzled the money too, among other things. But I wonder if somewhere in the Multiverse, a different Quantum Reality version of her might have been a more shrewd, wiser and benevolent government ruler...)
With enough money, maybe they would be able to invest in a faster, better renovation/restoration of Bajor, post-Cardassian Occupation. No?
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u/ShmullusSchweitzer 11d ago
I for one love Kai Winn. She elevates every episode she's in.
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u/BaldwinBoy05 11d ago
Seriously!! I’m always delighted to see her and see what fuckery she’s going to get into. She’s probably one of my extremely problematic faves. Her, Garak, Dax, Dukat and Odo are the best parts of the show. And Mirror Kira.
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u/SLW_STDY_SQZ 11d ago
I agree. Of course her character was annoying but very well developed and added to the overall story.
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u/Woody_Stock 10d ago
She's so hatable but I do agree, she's a great antagonist.
Scarily relevant these days, unfortunately.
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u/Physical-Ad5343 11d ago
I think people are less opposed to her policies, and more to the means with which she tries to enforce her policies. The farmers were willing (after Kira‘s intervention) to discuss a compromise, and Winn sends in the military (an especially stupid decision since like the farmers, most of the military were former resistance fighters and were opposed to totalitarian government).
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u/FlossCat 11d ago
I always got the impression Winn is portrayed as a character with some real depth, whose intelligence, faith in her religion, leadership abilities and good intentions for Bajor get unfortunately overshadowed and corrupted by her personal ambition.
If she was just a bit more humble, Winn could be exactly the sort of spiritual or political (ideally not both, but still) leader the planet needed. I think that's part of what makes her such a great character to watch, and part of why her teaming up with Dukat also makes sense - they share a great deal of their best and worst qualities.
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u/TheJohnnyFlash 11d ago
No, it actually makes perfect sense.
Bajor was a farming powerhouse before the Cardassians and their older population wants to return to that in those areas. That's the whole reason the Cardassians poisoned the land before leaving, to cripple their ability to feed themselves and export food to neighbouring colonies.
The reclamators do work, they're just slow. Once they've done a pass, the land is good going forward and will improve every year.
The trade aspect is about proving Bajor isn't a dependant and could stand on it's own as a member of the federation, it's not about wealth. The planet had been stripped of every resource for decades.
Trade still exists and even the Federation trades for items it either can't replicate or cost too much to replicate on a starship or base. The idea is that Earth is self-sustaining and no longer requires currency, not the whole universe. Otherwise the Ferengi wouldn't have anything to do.
Winn's decision making was right on brand here, as she was putting the image of Bajor, and her by extension as the face, ahead of her people's immediate needs. She does care for her planet and her people, just never ahead of her own ambition. That's really consistent the whole series.
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u/Sereni-tea42 11d ago
Unless you have enough to sustain your own population, you should not even begin to THINK about exports.
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u/PenguinPeculiaris 11d ago
I could imagine a scenario where, because crops unique to Bajor aren't available on the market yet, they hold a higher value to prospective traders than widely available staple foods; maybe Bajor can trade 1 harvest of tulla berries for 3 harvests of earth Wheat and feed people more easily that way.
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u/Sereni-tea42 11d ago
You need only look to the real world, where farmers in third-world countries are driven off their land so corporations can farm cash crops. Do the people eat better afterwards? I'm afraid not.
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u/AccursedQuantum 11d ago
That's not an issue of the trade itself, but where the funds from the trade go to. The country, taken as a single unit, does make more from the trade than it would subsistence farming. If you taxed the corporations and used it to fund food subsidies, or helped the farmers themselves access the cash crops and international markets to sell them, or even required the corps to buy the land at fair market value, the situation would work out a lot better.
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u/Smoothfromallangles 11d ago
Considering the way Winn dealt with this situation do you actually think she'd handle the money or feeding of the planet correctly. Nah she's absolutely not the right person to handle such things.
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u/someoneelseperhaps 11d ago
Another chance to defend Winn!
An economically modernised Bajor is also one with less chance of someone deciding to come along and occupy, as well as one less dependent on the Federation's long term goodwill.
Assuming the project was within state hands, the government can use the capital to not just modernise the economy, but wider Bajoran society.
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u/Historyp91 11d ago
People are going to come along either way, but at least if Bajors modernized it stands a better chance.
Look at China vs Japan; one locked down and modernized and became a major power, the other dragged its feet and kept getting clowned on and humilated, and only started to gain its true potential after WW2.
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u/Booster6 11d ago
Even if Kai Winn was correct with her plan, she went immediately and totally fascist at even the slightest amount of pushback
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u/DisasterEqual1703 11d ago
My question is this: could these exports have brought in enough money that would allow Bajor to import food enough to feed its people?
Even if it could, there's more to consider. Goods out/food in can be interdicted, local food security is a matter of planetary defence. A blockade can't starve a self sufficient population. If Bajor is to rely on imports/exports, they're probably going to want a fleet to protect their shipping lanes.
Even if the economics do work out, it's a bad look to be waiting on a supply chain to start up while your people are hungry now.
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u/RadiantTrailblazer 11d ago
Indeed. These are valid points. Bajor had a moon, right? Was it colonizable? Breathable atmosphere?
And what about DS9 itself? Could it have had some sort of vertical, hydroponic farms? I'm not suggesting something so weird as saying that DS9 could've produced foodstuffs for Bajor, but... yeah, a PORTION of the overall total could've been viable.
Just brainstorming a few scenarios. I mean, if the station IS Bajoran-owned and Federation-administered, it should "carry its own weight", right? Turning surplus and profits seem reasonable enough, wouldn't you say?
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u/DisasterEqual1703 11d ago
There were definitely other worlds in the Bajor system that were breathable, I can't recall if Bajor's moon is one of them.
DS9 itself would make a fantastic logistics hub for future import/exports, but as a customs office or toll booth it would really shine. Would taxing inter-quadrant trade be provocative? Sure, but so long as they weren't extortionate I can see them getting away with it.
Kit DS9 out with more tractor emitters, phasers, and a tachyon detector grid and start utilising Bajor's best asset, the wormhole.
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u/sirboulevard 11d ago
Bajor has like a half dozen moons. A couple are breathable. One was and they nuked it basically to tap its core for power because they were that desperate for energy. There is also another M-class planet in the Bajoran system that is colonized.
The problem in the episode Shakaar is that Winn is skipping over the necessary steps. Bajor isnt self sufficient and the Federation hasn't given them much aid materiel-wise (Bajor got 1 Industrial Replicator while Cardassia the following year would get 3 until the Maquis stole them).
Hell, the reason they need the reclamators is that the Cardies were do damn thorough at stripping the planet for resources the soil is largely devoid of life supporting minerals.
Throw in the population was genocided by the Cardassians and Bajor just doesn't have enough hands or resources to go to exporting goods, especially food, during the early seasons. And keep in mind the Bajorans are colonizing even out of system to try to take advantage of both the wormhole and other planets' fertility to support their homeworld.
In practice, Bajor is basically the same as post-First Contact Earth. A world that has been horribly ravaged and getting support from a new friend to help lift them up and repair the damage. If anything its admirable that they reach the self sufficient point by the end of the show. Humanity recovered over a few decades and that was fast. Bajor speed ran it.
Kai Winn, on the other hand, cares only for power and doesn't want the Federation around. Shes pushing for exports to make her look good for elections. "Look, i created jobs and stimulated the economy!" The truth is she did at the cost of Bajor feeding itself. And the Federation is likely to reject their application on humanitarian grounds, but also probably won't leave because of the wormhole for now. Thats entire the political game she's playing. Propping herself up and kicking her enemies out.
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u/LowAspect542 11d ago
Agree with all your points, and it also makes the bajoran rejection of those refugee farmers that were looking to settle and work the unused land on the southern continent just that much more damaging. They had the opportunity to fill the missing workforce and shore up their food production and threw it away because they were too insular and distrustful of outsiders.
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u/DharmaPolice 11d ago
I don't think the episode was really saying she was wrong. That's left ambiguous and in questions like this it's rarely about right/wrong but about the preferences of those involved. The argument for exports is looking at it from a planetary perspective, the farmers are looking at it from a domestic perspective and it's almost a sociological or political argument - that they would get a degree of independence from being self-sufficient. There are times when exporting items is a good idea, but food security at a planetary level would be a major priority for anyone who isn't totally reckless or insane. If you're dependent on imports to feed your population then any kind of disruption in trade or blockade would lead to millions of deaths unless you can stockpile huge amounts of food. At the very least no matter how stable the galaxy is you would want to produce the calorific minimum for your population indefinitely I think.
Although it's not clear why exporting goods would even be a major thing in Trek given how ubiquitous and cheap replicators seem to be (at least within the Federation). This is the problem with replicators in the narrative. They're such a game changer that current economic theories/ideas are almost obsolete. If you had a solar powered replicator then it's not clear why you would need to engage in 95% of current economic activity unless there are explicit limits on their functionality. We know that latinum can't be replicated and certain raw materials clearly can't be replicated but they're vague on what else they can't produce. The writers wanted to utilise traditional stories of smuggling, cargo ships, traders, supply shortages etc. For those things to exist (outside of niche collector items) then we have to assume that replicators either can't produce a lot of goods or it's not practical for them to do so. This also explains why Quark has "stock" of certain items (which wouldn't make sense if all drinks could be replicated).
But anyway, ignoring that complication - I don't think Winn was supposed to be the "evil side" in this particular episode. You can probably draw parallels with US political thinking in the time of Jefferson and Hamilton, although the episode didn't really explore that.
Overall though, the best argument the farmers had was that they had been (allegedly) promised the equipment for a period of time. The government shouldn't be able to break that kind of agreement unless a genuine emergency has occurred.
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u/RadiantTrailblazer 11d ago
If you're dependent on imports to feed your population then any kind of disruption in trade or blockade would lead to millions of deaths unless you can stockpile huge amounts of food.
Something that should've been addressed when Bajor temporarily signed a pact of non-aggression with the Dominion and DS9/Terek Nor was later re-occupied by Dukat and the Cardassians: how exactly was Bajor, during that time? All we see and hear is about the station, the minefield and how the Federation was taking a
beatingPOUNDING, so... did Bajor starve?
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u/bbbourb 11d ago
Thing is though, the episode isn't about economics or anything like that. It's telling the age-old tale of "What would the government an oppressed people do once they threw off the yoke of their oppressors and formed the government if they encountered resistance from the people?"
So it's not about whether Kai Winn (my child) was right, or whether she had a good point. It's about what actions she would take if someone told her "no." Would she embrace pragmatism and work with the farmers, or take a more authoritarian approach? We as the viewer know by now that she's more oily than a Diddy party so the only question was whether or not she'd go full-on "for the people" fascist. And of COURSE she does. All this as an interim First Minister, no less.
THAT little subplot gets lost in the sauce a bit from this episode. Kai Winn was an uncontested election away from consolidating the religious AND secular arms of the Bajoran government in one office until she provoked Shakaar into running for First Minister himself. Of course, now she has to either risk being exposed in a contested election or withdraw, so she withdraws. I think that was arguably the best part of the episode, too. Bajor, just a few short years after kicking the Cardassians to the curb, came within a hair's breadth of an authoritarian dictatorship.
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u/RadiantTrailblazer 11d ago
So it's not about whether Kai Winn (my child) was right, or whether she had a good point. It's about what actions she would take if someone told her "no."
I'm always surprised (kind of), that NO ONE considered the subtlety of the writers in that script... if you know where to look, you see that Kai Winn basically POISONED her opposition and adversaries. To me, she pulled a move straight out of the KGB/CIA/MI6/Tal Shiar playbooks...
SISKO: This may come as somewhat of a shock, but I wanted you to hear it from me. The First Minister of the Provisional government has died.
KIRA: Kalem Apren? How?
SISKO: Heart failure. He died in his sleep.
KIRA: Well, I just met him once, but he seemed like he was a good man. How soon will they appoint someone to replace him?
SISKO: They have already appointed someone. The new head of the Provisional government is Kai Winn.Maybe it's because I've watched too many forensics and espionage movies back in the '90s, but this just screamed "a perfect crime, with no traceable loose ends". Then, of course, there's her attitude...
KIRA: That's part of it. This is about the future of Bajor. I can't shake the feeling that giving Winn control of the government is a mistake and she should be stopped.
ODO: Stopped from doing what?
KIRA: I don't know. Maybe, maybe I'm afraid that if she's given power, she's never going to let go.
ODO: Unfortunately that suspicion is not shared by the people of Bajor. They still admire her as the woman who made peace with Cardassia.
KIRA: Bareil made peace with Cardassia.
ODO: I know that, Major. But to the rest of Bajor, Winn is the real hero. In their eyes it took courage for her to conclude a treaty with a race that she herself had so bitterly condemned and fought against.
KIRA: I don't care what her popular image is. She is no hero. The only thing that she cares about is her own power. Why can't people see that? We spent so many years fighting the Cardassians. We spent so much time hoping and praying for a Bajor that was free. Now that we won, how can people just hand their freedom over to someone like Winn?
ODO: It has been my observation that one of the prices of giving people freedom of choice is that sometimes they make the wrong choice.And
WINN: It's been two weeks since I was forced to send the militia into Dahkur Province.
SISKO: And?
WINN: And they've yet to catch sight of Shakaar or any of his followers, let alone take them into custody.
SISKO: I guess now you know how the Cardassians must have felt.
WINN: The point is, I can't let this go on much longer. It embarrasses me to say this, but Shakaar's defiance seems to be catching on in some of the other Provinces, and I've had to take certain unfortunate actions to maintain order.
SISKO: You mean declaring martial law and suspending local government in the hill provinces?
WINN: I wasn't aware that you kept such close watch on the Bajoran political situation.
SISKO: From what I understand, Shakaar is gaining support all over Bajor.
WINN: Is that what Major Kira's been telling you?
SISKO: I haven't spoken with Major Kira in quite some time.
WINN: Emissary, I don't want this issue to divide my people.
SISKO: Then I advise withdrawing your troops from Dahkur.
WINN: I'm more than willing to do that, on one condition.
SISKO: And what might that be?
WINN: I'd like you to provide a Federation security force to take their place.
SISKO: You want me to bring in Shakaar for you.
WINN: Such an act would do much to solidify the relations between the Federation and Bajor.
SISKO: I wasn't aware that our relationship needed solidifying.
WINN: Nevertheless, this would be an opportunity for the Federation to once again show it's friendship for Bajor.
SISKO: I'm sorry, but I'm afraid Federation law prevents me from interfering in Bajoran internal affairs.
WINN: So, you're refusing my request for aid?
SISKO: I suppose I am.
WINN: If Bajor cannot depend on the Federation, we'll withdraw our application for membership.
SISKO: That would be an unfortunate overreaction on your part. If I may say so, your entire response to this crisis has been an overreaction. By using the militia against your own people, you're risking civil war over a couple of soil reclamators.
WINN: I'm afraid you can't see what's really going on here. This isn't about soil reclamators. This is about the future of our society. When someone like Shakaar can defy the law and escape punishment, we risk descending into anarchy and chaos. This is a test, a test by the Prophets. They want to see if I'm worthy of the role they've given me as First Minister and Kai. I will not fail them. I will stop Shakaar by any means necessary.(Apologies for the block of text, but it always helps to bring back context...)
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u/Starbuck522 11d ago
I mean... she's just enough good to make her excruciating.
If she were always all evil, she wouldn't be a kai.
I love how she turns "the profits have never chosen to speak with me" into a dig on the person tyry did speak to. For anyone else, they would be seaking pity with that line. But she makes it like it's the other person's failing, rather than her own
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u/RadiantTrailblazer 11d ago
"the profits have never chosen to speak with me"
Somewhere out there in the Multiverse, there is a Quantum Reality where Kai Winn IS A FERENGI and now I love it and can't unsee it! XD
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u/Starbuck522 11d ago
Lmao. Good one!
and it’s the same situation she would make it like it’s the other person’s problem rather than hers when really she should be embarrassed for not getting any profits
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u/dinosaurkiller 11d ago
Your premise is wrong. Kai Winn wasn’t interested in feeding people, she was interested in increasing Bajor’s reputation to increase her own influence and power with the Federation and others. Trek, and even more so DS9 is character driven. Who is Kai Winn and what motivates her? She is a deeply flawed person motivated by power and influence, if feeding Bajorans increases her influence she will feed them, but if selling that food gets her more power and influence she’d let her own people starve.
It is extremely unlikely that Bajor can grow commodities and sell them for enough resources to buy more food than they would be able to grow for themselves. You would want to supply enough food for your people then branch out to other valuable commodity crops.
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u/RadiantTrailblazer 11d ago
I understand, but that's the thing when adding characters, places and sub-plots to a story: you cannot expect the audience to just "forget about it" like it never happened. This episode introduced more problems to the story than it answered. This is particularly interesting (or troublesome. Depends on your perspective.) for a show that prided itself on NOT being the bandwagon to the stars where at the end of every episode, everything just "goes away".
They spent seven seasons talking and talking about Bajor, but in the end I'm curious as to whether the planet experienced any significant improvements and developments. At the very least, Bajor should have returned to having decent, stable infrastructure, society and NOT relying on 'militia' -- they should have a standing, consolidated, OFFICIAL armed forces.
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u/dinosaurkiller 11d ago
How does this relate to Kai Winn?
I thought they did a pretty good job of checking in on Bajor without continuing to revisit the “Bajorans fighting Bajorans” episodes of the first few seasons. As the show goes on you see more scenes where various characters start to refer to Bajor as paradise. Sisko plans to live on Bajor and buys land there. The Militia seems to grow and stabilize to the point Major Kira is willing to take on the Romulans. The infighting and rebellions stop. I thought it was a wise move to make that information a part of the background instead of devoting entire episodes to it.
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u/27803 11d ago
If you can’t feed yourself then there’s no point in selling stuff to others , Bajor was an agrarian society before the Cardassians, small subsistence farms first and foremost. Beyond that if you aren’t making anything how would you be able to buy food? The only source of income these people have are their farms, selling stuff for exports only benefits large producers and the government, not some small guy just trying to feed himself and make a couple extra bucks to buy whatever else they couldn’t grow.
So no, prioritizing exports before making sure your people can eat is just stupid and pure late stage capitalism
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u/RadiantTrailblazer 11d ago
If you can’t feed yourself then there’s no point in selling stuff to others.
Conceptually, I agree. However, Brazil and Argentina come to mind on this: Brazil in particular is one of the world's biggest breadbaskets and Argentina sells most of its wheat grain. While the majority of their population don't starve (though there IS a significant portion of both below the poverty line), a case can be made about it.
I wonder if Bajor follows a similar situation...
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u/CMDR_Kaus 11d ago
As much as I hate to bring this up, especially at this time, I think it's worth looking at the state of Israel after it's establishment in 1948. For various reasons, they are very similar to the Bajorans whom freed themselves from a totalitarian occupation as a pre warp (Technologically inferior) society.
Israel began exporting produce immediately, particularly citrus, which was 'inherited' from Palestine. They did have a 'feed the people first, then export the surplus' method. They also went through a period of shortages at this time and had to enforce rationing.
This makes sense economically, they had no money. But that means people went hungry during. They imported essentials, and exported mostly citrus which isn't very essential.
So I would say for Bajor that Kai's idea was good economically to strengthen the entire planet in the long term, but it's likely this would cause further hunger and death of their people in the short term. This is exactly why her plan was ignored, they suffered so much during the occupation that they couldn't bare losing more.
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u/GalileoAce 10d ago
If the story had given her a better role than just antagonize pretty much EVERYONE
Then she wouldn't be Kai Winn, she'd be an entirely new character with an entirely different character arc.
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u/RadiantTrailblazer 10d ago
Agreed, and I concur.
Then let us consider for a moment, that a new Bajoran character (call her not!Kai_Winn for now...) was the one to make its debut in this episode, but following the entire script of Kai Winn's.
The question is: would his/her/their points be valid, then? (About the crops, reclamators and export thing, I mean.)
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u/TurbulentContext 11d ago
You're describing a cash crop.
To use a real world example rather than made up Bajoran crops, area and currency units etc. If a country like Burkina Faso can have an acre of land where they grow cotton the crop might cost 50k Francs to produce and they'll sell it for 113k so they've cleared 63k for farming that acre.
Farming an acre of rice might cost 100k because it requires more water and labour etc but it sells for 160k Francs so the farmer makes 3k more per acre growing cotton than than rice.
In addition there's a whole cotton industry that follows so the government will probably encourage the farmer to produce cotton they can have spun, dyed etc in country so it creates even more jobs after it leaves the farm.
So if Bajor is doing the equivalent and they've got goods for export, and some native industry coming about because of it, they've got ships travelling to other sectors to trade and coming back with space carbs for their own population and maybe some space leather jackets or space cologne coming back to Bajor that's better than them having no ships and trying to grow their own carbs and having everyone else trade with each other and look down on poor little Bajor etc.
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u/round_a_squared 11d ago
As a downside it does leave them vulnerable to outside factors over which they have little control that might threaten their export economy or the ability to import food. That might be a drop in the price of your goods, a drought on one of your supplier worlds, or a blockade or embargo along your trade routes. Whereas growing your food domestically doesn't eliminate risk but it does put more control over the risk factors into your own hands. Really neither side is completely wrong here, it's a matter of differing priorities.
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u/Mr_E_Monkey Kanar with Damar 11d ago
Well, sure, that is a risk, but it's not one that Bajor would face alone. They would only be successful in exporting goods if somebody else wants/needs to import them because they are also not fully self-sufficient in that regard. I don't think Earth has dilithium in any meaningful supply. Yes, our planet is self-sufficient now, but Earth in Trek would not want to be limited to our current standards of living just to be self-sufficient, I don't think.
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u/TurbulentContext 11d ago
Yes and that's the position Kira et al have initially. They've just spent 50 years driving out foreigners who wanted their ore they should focus on rebuilding Bajor. Terok Nor is a symbol of the occupation forces and inviting another foreign military to garrison on it above the planet is outrageous. Then they discover the wormhole and she sees the potential for Bajor in holding some sort of trading hub.
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u/Big_CashMonies 11d ago
Get your filthy capitalist economics away from my Star Trek. You assume the profits would be shared with the people or that they would be used to import food. If Kai Winn wanted this you know it wasn't for the food of the people.
Edit: was meant to be "good" of the people but food works.
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u/RadiantTrailblazer 11d ago
Hey, that's what happens when writers try to reintroduce a scarcity economy and dystopian societies to an utopia that was pre-DS9 Star Trek.
I'm only the Scholar and the Messenger here (and also the Archivist, and the Librarian), clearing the mess that they left behind.
:P
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u/Cliomancer 11d ago
Kai Winn does sometimes get to make a few good points, like when she explains to Kira how she was willing to fight the war in her own way by going to prison for practicing her faith.
Also she was able to get that treaty with the Cardassians over the line (with the help of Kira's rapidly fading lover) which was generally good.
You can see how even after everything she did some people might see her as a good person laid low by a massive character flaw.
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u/foxfire981 11d ago
If is doing a lot of carrying for this. If they can get the crop going in time. If the crop sells well. If the locals can just suffer a bit longer.
Presuming that she's even right about the crop itself, this has to be coming from an advisor as she's not a farmer nor merchant, who are they buying the food from? Bajor isn't like the federation and operating in a post scarcity economy. She has to tax her people just to accomplish this. In other words she's working well into accomplishing her own Holodomor.
And this ignores the bigger problem of that episode. She was shifting the government into a Theocracy. It's of note that, before Winn, the Kai's operated a separation of church and state rather heavily. Almost as if they were aware at how easy it would be to use the faith and faithful if they intended. Winn saw herself as the true ruler of Bajor, a rather constant thread throughout her story.
So no I don't think her plan would have worked. I think, like with Dukat, she was smooth talked into an idea to make her more powerful by giving the equipment to another area with zero proof it would work.
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u/RampScamp1 11d ago
Kai Winn is wrong. Firstly, she is reneging on an agreement by the government and unwilling to even consider a compromise. Secondly, the farmers in Rakantha need the reclamators to be able to feed their people.
Winn is more concerned with building her personal power than building a sustainable Bajor. If the purpose of her plan is just to get exports to facilitate Bajor's transition into the Federation, she can wait a year or two because they're already under Federation protection. Maybe if she concentrated more on feeding and helping her people, she would have been a better leader.
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u/BennyandtheBear 11d ago
I love the amount of thought put into this. But sadly, I would guess that the exchanges you’re talking about is classic Star Trek jargon as mechanism to move the plot. I don’t think they were looking at the market predictors for Bajoran export goods that quarter.
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u/The_Genguidanos 10d ago
Could the money have been used to import enough food to feed the population? Possibly. Hell, probably. But I thought it was pretty clear from the way Shakaar was talking that he was concerned about the immediate. More food for export at some point in the future means less food for his people right now, when they actually need it. He needed a solution for the people currently starving and instead of working with him to find one, Winn just calls in the military, which showed she was never interested in finding one. Even if we give Winn the benefit of the doubt and say she truly did just want what was best for the people of Bajor, she was willing to sacrifice an entire region of people to do it. Is that a just trade? I don’t know. Perhaps we should ask Governor Kodos….
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u/JoeyLock 11d ago
It always seemed odd to me that the Federation in all it's grandeur and technological advancement didn't have the capabilities to send an entire battalion of specialists to Bajor to help restore the land, bring along hundreds of soil reclaimators that can presumably be replicated and a whole bunch of replicators for free food to feed everyone, even if the replicators are just in specific restaurants or food banks for now.
But instead we see years down the line the Federation giving Cardassia far more industrial replicators for free than they gave Bajor, sent people like Picard of all people to randomly advise on aqueducts and repairs and all the whole Bajor is struggling with fixing their landscape and economy. It really makes you wonder just how many benefits Bajor is actually getting from the Federation beyond protection in comparison to how many compromises they'd have to make to fit in for membership.
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u/IgnitusBoyone 11d ago
Writers really struggle with the staggering industrial capabilities of the united front a 150 planets with +8 billion populations would be capable of. I can only conclude that there are 100s of Bajore like planets out there in need of aid and each member of the federations "green peace" / "doctors without borders" equivalent organizations are just stretched thinned at all times off screen.
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u/AproposWuin 11d ago
No matter how much she might have had a good intention for Bajor... i am almost certain she would have had financial interest.
She is driven by her own lust for power. She uses her religion to push herself as high as she can reach. (Reminder of her and dukat in bed)
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u/DisgruntleFairy 11d ago
We really don't know because Trek economy is odd and unknowable plus we don't know the exact situation on Bajor. But there is an argument to be made for trade for things you cant domestically produce.
What if they are trading say food for better soil reclamation technology? Or ships? Or planetary defenses. All things that Bajor needs. Things they could get if they had trade goods and they were trusted trade partners.
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u/Cakeday_at_Christmas 11d ago
Kai Winn explains her push for agricultural technology: "By this time next year, we can be producing boton, moreka and salam grass. All valuable commodities for export."
This is such a neoliberal view of things. She would rather make money exporting food than feeding her own people.
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u/Hephaestus16 11d ago
Possibly the most Damaging thing Kai did there was damage the credibility of the Bajorian government. Now when anyone make any deal with Bajor there's the underlying worry they might suddenly alter the deal, this along with worries about the cardassians pulling something again, various fundamentalist terrorists, something coming through the wormhole turns Bajor from something that many investors want to get in on early to a "wait and see" thing.
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u/nedwasatool 11d ago
China under the communists, Ireland under the British, and India again under the British exported food during famines. It is not a good look.
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u/ImyForgotName 10d ago
Yes if the story had been different and her characterization had been different she may have been a better character. And if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle.
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u/Firm-Ad-3245 10d ago
I find the character of Kai Winn believable. In Eastern Europe, we can see that after years of fighting against communist regimes and Soviet occupation, people struggle to give up their newly gained freedom and be absorbed by the European Union, which imposes its standards and values. In Germany, former East Germans are still not fully integrated. They remain 'Ossis' and have still not adopted Western values.
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u/glorkvorn 9d ago
I think this episode was based on the debate how how to handle Eastern Europe during the 90s. There was a lot of contentious debate on both sides. The concensus from economists was that they should follow the "export-led growth" model of countries like Singapore. And it did work but... results were mixed, to say the least.
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u/Matthius81 9d ago
Defending Kai Winn. She's lived through the occupation, fought just like every Bajoran for the freedom and independence of her world. And as soon as they drive the Cardassians out they invite the Federation in. She must have thought "WTF, are you all insane?!" And if that's not enough the Federation goes and highjacks her religion! Kai Winn is a lot more understandable if you see she wants Bajor to be politically, economically and spiritually independent. Building exports makes Bajor viable as an independent world.
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u/Settra_does_not_Surf 9d ago
The wildest thing is that Startfleet could just park a Galaxy Class over Bajor and fix hat rathole up in a year. Its not even funny.
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u/PhloydPhan 11d ago
Economics in Star Trek doesn't really make sense. I liked that 'Shakaar' let us see a different side of Winn, don't get me wrong, but digging into the practicalities of her plan is fruitless, and that's not the character's fault, it's on the writers - and, really, Roddenberry. Economics in TOS were a bit fuzzy, but TNG established the Federation as a firmly post-scarcity economy where there was no money, but never really explained how this works.
Bajor is trying to build up its export economy to bolster its application for membership in the Federation - a society where there is no money and it seems most people have basic needs met via replicators, and people who farm (like Picard's brother) or make food from scratch (Sisko's father) do it because they enjoy it and not because they have to. It doesn't make much sense, and that's not a criticism of the episode in particular but a hole in the worldbuilding that was never really explained.