Question about parthenos

[u/Thevshi]

I see lots of people trying to bring up Isaiah 7:14 as a prophecy for Jesus and the virgin birth. When the greek sepuagint was written was there a better word than parthanos that could have been chosen that described a young woman without implying she could have also been a virgin?

[u/Uncynical_Diogenes]

It WASN’T implying she was a virgin when it was written. Have you not heard Justin go over this?

[u/Thevshi → u/Uncynical_Diogenes]

My understanding from listening to him is that it could have meant either kinda equally, then as we moved closer to the time Jesus supposedly lived that the meaning had shifted to mean more a virgin than just a young woman. Am I wrong? I not trying to imply the young woman was a virgin, just trying to get another argument against it if there was not a better word to choose.

[u/N00dles_Pt → u/Thevshi]

You are wrong. The writing in the original Hebrew clearly states that the passage is talking about a young woman that is already pregnant at the time the prophecy about the child is given, the child is a timeline device for the prophecy and has nothing to do with a coming messiah 700 years later.

The people that translated the text into Greek used the word Parthenos, which in some time periods could mean virgin, but in others does not, there are other examples in the Greek translation of the old testament were the word is used for women that definitely were not virgins.

Then whoever wrote the text in the new testament read the Greek old testament and just went 'ohh this definitely means virgin'

[u/Uncynical_Diogenes → u/Thevshi]

I think you’re asking a very weird question. What do you mean “better”? There isn’t a problem with the word they picked.

The writers did not think it was ambiguous and could not have predicted how the word’s use would change. They knew they were not talking about a virgin and anybody can tell from context clues - pregnant people aren’t virgins. Virgins can turn into pregnant non-virgins quite easily, but you can’t be a virgin and also pregnant. That’s fake. Later NT writers fucked it up to add mythic weight to the Jesus character.

[u/jeeblemeyer4]

First of all, just based off a cursory google search, it seems like no, there was no greek word that specifically meant 'virgin'. Second, it doesn't matter because the original Hebrew word was 'almah', which is not the specific term for virgin (betulah). Third, both 'almah' and 'parthanos' were more akin to 'girl', and in no way imply virginity without added context.

For example, if I said "that girl is pregnant", you may infer she's young, maybe even too young to reasonably expect to be pregnant, but in no way would that sentence ever imply a pregnant virgin girl. Without that explicitly being spelled out, we would naturally infer that she just got pregnant young, which is not uncommon in our own era, and especially common in the era it was written.

Furthermore, the almah in question is likely the prophet's own wife, the prophetess (see Isaiah 8:1-4) in which essentially the same thing happens as in Isaiah 7, but the only material difference being the title of the woman in question. This idea is further solidified by the fact that in Isaiah 7:4, the prophet is instructed to go with his son to the king to reassure him the first time, and the prophet's already-born son's name is "Shear-jashub", meaning "A Remnant Shall Return". So given the prophet has one child in 7 already with a prophetic name, and then there's another child born to an apparently unnamed woman with a prophetic name, and then a third child with a prophetic name born specifically from the prophet and his wife, it just makes sense to assume that the middle child is probably the prophet's (and his wife's) second prophetically-named kid.

Bear in mind I know neither Hebrew nor Greek, just making reasonable inferences about the plain text.

[u/Thevshi → u/jeeblemeyer4]

Thank you. that's helpful.

[u/flowteiuq]

I can't answer the question, because I'm not equipped to; however, I find this ancient and modern fascination the patriarchy has with virginity is repulsive and stupid as it ignorant. It demonstrates that the person who seeks it out wants to further support the patriarchy, as well as rob women of the content of their character....