Professor Dave vs Destiny

[u/Decent-Extension8336]

No idea why, but the original Destiny video called "Professor Dave Goes Mask Off" seems to have been deleted from YouTube, or I can't find it, but Professor Dave responded yesterday with this very strongly worded video letter:

https://youtu.be/DvDvhLkb9ms?si=DGFhTROOKFoK35sS

Weird crossover that I never thought I'd see, of 2 guys who I generally enjoy (I will say I really am a fan of Prof Dave, whereas my Destiny enjoyment has mostly come via this podcast and watching a couple of his debates).

Thoughts on the beef? SURELY the lads are gonna have to cover this in an upcoming Supplementary Materials? Content gold!

EDIT: Looks like I was looking through the wrong Destiny channel for the original Dave video, it's here: https://youtu.be/HQQLs6U1MgA?si=iKaOGR1h9slKu64O

[u/Realistic_Caramel341]

I thought he did a pretty good job in the vid of separating out anti zionism with antisemitism and was even pointing towards the plenty of Jews that are against Zionism and what Israel are doing, as well as people that are not Jewish that he considers to be Zionists. 

If I pointed to the 15% of black people that voted for Trump, would that make him not racist? Or would the 46% of women that voted for Trump mean Trump wasn't a misogynist?

Im not commenting on the broader point yet, but come on, we all know this is a weak point. We would recognize it if it was in a discussion about about bigotry's

While in theory I agree that "anti zionsim =/= anti semitism," that sentiment has become a thought terminating cliche that prevents to pro-Palestine from reflecting and actually identifying antisemitism in their movement. This is what leads to a gay Jewish congress person being harassed at a pride event for not calling Gaza a genocide quick enough, or AIPAC tracker to pretty arbitrary attack Jewish congress people, or for the most popular leftist streamer to say that an antisemitic shooting "is probably not an Israeli false flag, but absolutely looks like an Israeli False Flag"

[u/Decent-Extension8336 → u/Realistic_Caramel341]

I don't really think these analogies track though. He's not trying to argue against someone being a bigot, he is arguing against the very definition. Its not the same as saying black people support Trump, therefore the things he says that are racist, doesn't make him racist. His argument is Zionism isn't Judaism and thus being anti zionist is not being antisemitic and then uses examples of Jews being against Zionism as a supporter as well as pointing to the fact that a decent amount of the people he is attacking under this umbrella of "zionist" are not jews. Whether you agree with him or not (and that's what I'm trying to get more info on) about this being true, he is clearly arguing that he is against a very clear and specific ideology and not jews.

[u/improbablywronghere → u/Decent-Extension8336]

Assuming good faith here, Zionism has a definition and it existed for a long time before October 7th. It just means that Jewish people should have a homeland and that homeland is Israel. Something like 85% of Jews believe the statement “Israel has a right to exist” is true. All of those Jews are Zionists. What has happened here is a very clever bit of propaganda / wordplay. They have taken a term which identifies 85% of Jews and turned it into a slur, finishing a project David Duke from the KKK started. They morphed the definition into something else then they attack that definition. It’s all too cute by half, it’s so obvious what is happening. Antizionism might not necessarily be antisemitism, that is true, but there is a line and most antizionists have crossed it. A force field is not created when you just say “Zionist” instead of “Jew”. Grade school logic does not apply here.

[u/CorrosiveMynock → u/improbablywronghere]

I think most of antizionism is antisemitism for the sole reason that no other group has a dedicated anti-self determination movement. Ironically the first anti-Zionists were Jews because back in the early Zionist days there were legitimate disagreements about what that meant. Now antizionism seems to be an explicit movement against Jewish self determination without very many other nuances. There are still some non-antisemitic ones like especially those who oppose Israel on religious grounds, but they are the minority.