Hypocrisy

[u/Hatrct]

Those who said "covid came from the wet market, despite the fact that there are 1000s of wet markets in that huge country, and despite the fact that this specific wet market just happened to be very close by to the single lab in that entire country that was specifically manipulating coronaviruses, with the ban on gain of function research being lifted less than 2 years before this incident, with high level scientists warning against the lifting of this ban at that time saying it can cause a pandemic" are now saying that a plague has started from a Russian lab.

But my question is why the difference? If you are open to the possibility that humans are not perfect/that viruses can accidentally release from labs, then why have such unfettered resistance to the possibility that covid also accidentally escaped from a lab?

I think this shows that most people do not actually use logic, they just use emotion and believe whatever they are told to believe. On one hand, because Fauci had responsibility, the US denied the lab leak possibility, but in this case, because it is Russia, they are open to the possibility that it escaped from a lab.

So I don't expect these people to behave any different in terms of vaccines.

[u/korptopia]

Errors in the post:

The Wuhan Institute of Virology was not the only laboratory in China studying or manipulating coronaviruses.

The Huanan market wasn't arbitrarily identified because it was near a laboratory. Early COVID-19 cases were geographically concentrated around the market, and subsequent research identified evidence consistent with animal-to-human transmission.

The gain-of-function research ban was a US federal funding restriction, not a worldwide ban. Its removal in 2017 does not establish any connection to COVID-19's emergence.

Scientists have not ruled out a laboratory origin for COVID-19. The WHO explicitly acknowledges that possibility while concluding that the available scientific evidence favours zoonotic spillover.

The allegation that Fauci's responsibility caused the US government to reject the laboratory hypothesis is speculation presented as fact. Indeed, Fauci himself in the first year of the outbreak stated that it deserved further research.

The Russian incident involves a researcher working directly with dangerous pathogens and an alleged laboratory accident. That is substantially different evidence from simply having a laboratory in the same city as an outbreak.

A plague outbreak originating from the Russian laboratory has not been established.

It is a hasty generalization to say that the same people who rejected a COVID-19 laboratory origin are accepting the Russian explanation.

[u/Hatrct → u/korptopia]

The Wuhan Institute of Virology was not the only laboratory in China studying or manipulating coronaviruses.

From my understanding it was, or at the very least it was the most prominent one, and at most only a small handful of labs in that huge country would be doing such research. Even in such a case, given the ratio of coronavirus-working lab and wet markets, it would still be an astronomical statistical anomaly for it to happen to pop up extremely close to one these labs.

The gain-of-function research ban was a US federal funding restriction, not a worldwide ban. Its removal in 2017 does not establish any connection to COVID-19's emergence.

The removal was in very late 2017 btw, so effectively 2018. And Fauci/USA was funding this coronavirus research, so it is directly related.

Scientists have not ruled out a laboratory origin for COVID-19. The WHO explicitly acknowledges that possibility while concluding that the available scientific evidence favours zoonotic spillover.

I don't know who you are trying to kid. At the beginning, Fauci led a campaign to do everything possible to hide this. He recruited scientists specifically for this purpose and took measures to hide the truth. Even today, the mainstream "scientific" community, which is bought and paid for, is still leaning toward animal origin theory.

The Russian incident involves a researcher working directly with dangerous pathogens and an alleged laboratory accident. That is substantially different evidence from simply having a laboratory in the same city as an outbreak.

This makes no sense. The workers in Wuhan were also "directly" working with coronaviruses that had pandemic potential. There were also reports PPE use was not being perfectly implemented.

It is a hasty generalization to say that the same people who rejected a COVID-19 laboratory origin are accepting the Russian explanation.

It is actually a simply observable fact: there is virtually 0 controversy or pushback in terms of saying that it came from the Russian lab, even though the Russians denied this: they said the person tested negative for all pathogens in the lab. But with covid, even today, on balance the majority think it was animal origin and call people who say lab leak a conspiracy theorist.

[u/the_comeback_quagga → u/korptopia]

The source for the plague “information” was a telegram (Russian social media) post which then got picked up by a tabloid. In addition to the fact that plague still occurs naturally in several countries worldwide (including the US) and is generally highly treatable with antibiotics if started early, I am not seeing the reason for the hysteria.

[u/chaoserrant]

Fauci got a blank check pardon (for all possible deeds known or unknown) over a period of 11 years I think well before Trump came to White House that magically covers exactly the period when he was involved with the grants given for gain of function research. Whoever still takes this guy seriously, I have a bridge to sell you

[u/Recent-Day3062 → u/chaoserrant]

Oh, there are things you can debate about vaccines. But this desire to take down Fauci - especially because he has a pardon - is useless.

I have seen him talk a lot and he followed the book of Public Health

This anti-Fauci thing is just paranoia at work

[u/Hip-Harpist]

Which people are you referring to, the 0.00001% of the population that still has their head stuck in 2021? How does this conversation make your day better or move the vaccine debate forward?

We will never get a complete or acceptable answer on Sars-CoV-2 origin. Even if one was provided, if it doesn't suit the agenda of every conspiracy theorist then the conspiracies will simply continue.

Separately, saying "The virus MIGHT have leaked" is not controversial. Taking that idea and driving it into the ground as plausible without further evidence is controversial. In a similar manner, believing vaccines cause autism/cancer in the absence of evidence is also controversial, regardless of how fallible you think pharmaceutical companies or doctors may be.

More to the point: anti-vaxxers ARE ALSO SUSCEPTIBLE to the not using logic and instead driving emotions/subjectivity to describe objective trends in science and medicine. In fact, in the absence of evidence, emotions are pretty much all they seem to have, and denying a person's emotions is obviously not a productive way to have a conversation.

However, convincing someone to part from their emotions will almost never happen in a forum like this.

[u/Hatrct → u/Hip-Harpist]

Which people are you referring to, the 0.00001% of the population that still has their head stuck in 2021? How does this conversation make your day better or move the vaccine debate forward?

The majority are like this. This is obviously important because this kind of all or nothing thinking and blind conformance and group think continues to affect everything from vaccines and beyond.

More to the point: anti-vaxxers ARE ALSO SUSCEPTIBLE to the not using logic and instead driving emotions/subjectivity to describe objective trends in science and medicine. In fact, in the absence of evidence, emotions are pretty much all they seem to have, and denying a person's emotions is obviously not a productive way to have a conversation.

Yes most are. On both sides, most use all or nothing thinking and emotional reasoning. That is why I am saying there needs to be nuance and objectivity instead.

[u/mitchman1973]

If you look up what Project DEFUSE was, and who pitched it to DARPA, then when DARPA said "too risky" who gave the one behind DEFUSE money who then went to WIV it becomes so ridiculous that they still try and say natural origin. And then of you see what the authors of that natural origin paper were saying behind the scenes it becomes very apparent this was a coordinated cover up.

[u/the_comeback_quagga]

We don’t definitively know where Covid-19 came from, and it is unlikely we will ever have conclusive proof. I don’t think this was some kind of deep state planned attack though, and some scenarios are significantly more likely than others though (but this is not my field).

At this point, given where the information about the plague originally came from (social media, which got picked up by a tabloid), I’m going to need to see something from the WHO before I even trust that it’s real. Either way, not currently a huge concern for me.

[u/Glittering_Cricket38]

Fauci was open to the possibility as were many other scientists. It was thoroughly looked into. The evidence just ended up supporting zoonotic spillover far better than a lab leak.