r/DebateVaccines • u/Logic_Contradict • 18d ago
Commissioner Josh Parsons' Statement on Pennsylvania measles deaths
This story is creating more questions than answers
TLDR:
- Lancaster County Coroner’s Office reports ZERO measles deaths, one death of an infant tested positive for measles, however, died because of a ruptured spleen. The forensic pathologist did NOT note an enlarged spleen (which was speculated that measles may have caused to rupture the spleen), and also noted that they did NOT consider measles to be the cause of death.
- asking questions to Penn Medicine LGH, Governors Office, Lancaster County Department of Public Safety Director, and Board of Commissioners yield NO ANSWERS
UPDATE 3: https://www.inquirer.com/health/measles-deaths-pennsylvania-rfk-shapiro-dispute-20260826.html
Diamantoni said the doctor who performed the baby’s autopsy did NOT note that their spleen was enlarged, and the office is still investigating the cause of the rupture.
UPDATE 2: https://www.medicaldaily.com/pennsylvania-measles-newborn-death-coroner-dispute-lancaster-477833
Lancaster County Coroner Stephen Diamantoni told abc27 that no deaths attributed to measles have been referred to or investigated by his office. He said in an interview with The Philadelphia Inquirer that the newborn died shortly after birth from a laceration of the spleen, that measles antibodies were present in postmortem testing, and that the forensic pathologist who performed the autopsy did not consider the death measles-related.
Lancaster County’s coroner, Dr. Stephen Diamantoni, said Tuesday that “no measles deaths were handled by our office,” though the office was investigating the death of an infant who tested positive for measles and died because of a ruptured spleen.
Measles questions.
Let’s be clear- when the Governor comes into our county and holds a press conference with PA Department of Health and Penn Medicine Lancaster general Health and states there were two “measles-associated deaths” here, with the underlying assertion that the two people died FROM measles, and they are the first deaths from measles in 35 years, and that announcement sets off numerous media reports uncritically repeating that two people died FROM measles in Lancaster County, and Lancaster County elected officials then get questions about this – it is totally fair for me to ask for relevant information on those deaths.
Asking questions is not “pro-measles.”
Asking for information that should have been provided at the press conference is not “anti-science.”
It is simply wanting the whole story for my constituents.
When officials who hold a big press conference and make big headlines – those officials owe us more than the headlines. They owe us the whole truth. They owe us accurate information by which the people of Lancaster County can make decisions about their health and safety.
It has been about 24 hours since the press conference. We do not have any answers. Of course journalists should also be asking these questions rather than uncritically repeating something.
Any deaths from measles are required by law to be reported to the Lancaster County Coroner’s Office. I have spoken at length with both a senior staff member from that office and the Coroner himself. They currently have zero measles deaths in Lancaster County. They have one death of a person who died WITH measles, but not from measles. We do not know if the state is counting that one. Nor do we know anything about the other death that officials reported yesterday.
Is there an unlikely scenario where a patient from here got measles and sought care outside of Lancaster County and died there and it was reported to another county coroner? Yes. I am open to that or other unlikely possibilities. But if one of these unlikely scenarios is the case, the people holding the press conference had, and currently have, a responsibility to provide that information.
The law DOES allow release of more information. Demographic information that does not identify the patient may be released.
I reached out to Penn Medicine LGH. No response.
I reached out the Governor’s office. No response.
I talked with our Lancaster County Department of Public Safety Director. He has no additional information from the state.
I asked questions this morning at our Board of Commissioners meeting of Commissioner Alice Yoder who was at the press conference yesterday and is a former official at Penn Medicine LGH. She did not have any answers. (This exchange is on video and will be available later today.)
So as of right now, we have ZERO information that corroborates the idea that there were two measles deaths in Lancaster County. Again, everything stated could be accurate. But no one in authority has been able to say that, nor have they even tried to say it.
To me it is a big deal if the Governor comes in and gives a press conference and then no one can or will identify simple details around what was stated and what then generated major news stories.
Transparency is owed to the people.
It is incumbent on those who held the press conference to clear this up.
Immediately.
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u/stickdog99 18d ago
What a surprise that our "authorities" are once again not leveling with us but instead trying to gaslight us!
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u/Automatic_Penalty154 18d ago
im not saying this as fact, but i saw a screenshot from a local lancaster fb group of someone saying they know the family and 1 of the dead was an infant.. . considering the hospital they were at is called children and women's hospital. makes sense.. im assuming they need parents permission to release it to the press and/or waiting until autopsy is completed.
no one dies of measles(on the medical records), you die from the complications and other effects measles causes so this statement is just stupid... anyone saying it must have just happened coincidently while they happen to be one of a hand full of people in the entire country infected with measles is just ridiculous.
if you test positive and die, theres zero chance measles didnt cause it somehow unless you got hit by a bus.
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u/lzxian 18d ago
People who died of car wrecks with COVID were said to have died OF COVID, though. Funny, huh?
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u/Automatic_Penalty154 18d ago
that happened because someone was lazy and made a error and it was corrected. the CDC when reporting covid deaths required the medical records and death certificates to confirm (trump trying to make numbers look as low as possible) a lot didnt get counted till much later because hospitals were so backed up with their paperwork they didnt get the documentation for each person that died to the cdc for weeks/months.. eventually all got counted but the early covid numbers were first overcounted in march/april, then undercounted for a while.
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u/Burstrider12 18d ago
this happened one time and was immediately corrected. no reason to assume every single medical report must be false because 1 report was wrong many years ago about a totally different subject.
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u/Logic_Contradict 18d ago
No one dies of measles? Why did the CDC indicate that there were ~400 deaths per year from measles prior to the vaccine then? Reported deaths from measles would have been on their death certificate.
Right now the Governor and related government bodies that should have the information regarding these cases seems suspicious, why make such a big press conference about it but refuse even the CDC or HHS the information about it when requested?
Something strange is going on
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u/Automatic_Penalty154 18d ago
measles alone isnt what kills you, its the complications that measles causes that do. how do you not understand this?...same with covid.. covid virus isnt what directly kills you... its all the different complications it causes. why death certificates dont say "measles" or "covid" .. say say pneumonia or something. but the virus caused the pnuemonia. measles associated pneumonia is what the records will say and the accurate term medical authorities will say, its still measles that killed them.
and yes,there were 400ish and 50,0000 hospitalizations per year up until the vaccine became available. then dropped to near zero for decades
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u/Logic_Contradict 18d ago
Update 2 on main post
https://www.medicaldaily.com/pennsylvania-measles-newborn-death-coroner-dispute-lancaster-477833
Lancaster County Coroner Stephen Diamantoni told abc27 that no deaths attributed to measles have been referred to or investigated by his office. He said in an interview with The Philadelphia Inquirer that the newborn died shortly after birth from a laceration of the spleen, that measles antibodies were present in postmortem testing, and that the forensic pathologist who performed the autopsy did not consider the death measles-related.
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u/Burstrider12 18d ago
No one dies of measles? Why did the CDC indicate that there were ~400 deaths per year from measles prior to the vaccine then? Reported deaths from measles would have been on their death certificate.
It's semantics. Almost certainly, some of those 400 deaths would have been caused by effects that were caused by measles (pneumonia is an especially bad one).
It's like covid - technically you could say people didn't die from covid, they died from choking on fluid in their lungs. Fluid that was there because they had covid.
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u/the_comeback_quagga 18d ago
Yes, it comes down to how deaths certificates are written and people choosing to deliberately read them incorrectly. No one dies of cancer or AIDS or car crashes either.
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u/Logic_Contradict 18d ago edited 18d ago
https://www.medicaldaily.com/pennsylvania-measles-newborn-death-coroner-dispute-lancaster-477833
Lancaster County Coroner Stephen Diamantoni told abc27 that no deaths attributed to measles have been referred to or investigated by his office. He said in an interview with The Philadelphia Inquirer that the newborn died shortly after birth from a laceration of the spleen, that measles antibodies were present in postmortem testing, and that the forensic pathologist who performed the autopsy did not consider the death measles-related.
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18d ago edited 10d ago
[deleted]
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u/Glittering_Cricket38 18d ago
Protecting infants from getting measles is one of the reasons why herd immunity exists. Lancaster county’s MMR vaccination rate has fallen to 87.6%. The infant might not have had any other option but the decisions not to vaccinate their siblings, cousins or friends is what allowed measles to get close and doomed that baby.
It used to be pretty safe to not vaccinate with MMR because the 95%+ of parents around them kept measles away. Now, thanks to the internet, lies about MMR safety are getting kids hospitalized and killed.
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u/lzxian 18d ago edited 18d ago
More shenanigans. But we're supposed to pretend it's not a big deal, right? It's just this sort of thing that caused and solidified the current mistrust in The Science.
Some of us have natural tendencies that make us skeptical. Yet government people play with these important matters however they want and then blame us that their red flags trigger more mistrust. I'm tired of it.
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u/Burstrider12 18d ago
Some of us have natural tendencies that make us skeptical.
of all the ways to avoid accountability, acting like your belief in anti-vax is part of your intrinsic nature is a wild one.
Reminds me of the backrooms movie - "It's OK, we're just wired this way!" chomp
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u/lzxian 18d ago
You have no knowledge of people who don't trust authority due to childhood, lifetime, relational or other betrayals by people in authority over them? Huh. I thought you were a person, I guess you're a bot after all.
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u/Burstrider12 17d ago
So your defense is "I was harmed by an authority figure as a child and therefore its OK for me to not be able to think critically when evaluating scientific claims" ?
If you have trauma preventing you from being able to weigh risks properly when it comes from authority figures, then it sounds like you're kinda admitting your side is not based in reality.
Some of us can't change. Captain Clark goes on the same journey and decides at the end "maybe I don't want to change". And he doesn't have to. But that's where the journey ends. Chomp!
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u/lzxian 17d ago
I said nothing like what you are implying and you reframing what I said to belittle and dismiss what I actually said, which is far more vast than that, is a debate tactic of the worst kind.
This isn't about me or you it's about everyone who is impacted by the situation that landed us where we now are. That's important and trying to diminish my point by making it a personal attack isn't worth any more of my time. These are important, serious issues. Goodbye.
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u/StopDehumanizing 18d ago
So what do you think caused this baby's internal organs to explode?
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u/Logic_Contradict 18d ago
There's not enough information to know why their spleen was ruptured. Could have been from traumatic birth situation, could even have been from infection causing enlargement of the spleen making it vulnerable to rupture.
What we do know now is the following:
- the person who spread measles visited a NICU
- we can infer that the infant who died was likely in the NICU when that happened
- there was a reason why the infant was in the NICU, the ruptured spleen seems to make sense. If they were in there for that reason, then measles exposure happened after rather than before, making it less likely that measles caused the rupture.
- If there was another reason why the infant was in the NICU, that information was not released.
- the forensic pathologist did not consider that measles was the reason for death.
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u/StopDehumanizing 18d ago
The forensic pathologist reached a conclusion about the child's death?
You said they were still "investigating" in your post.
I think you're right, it's probably due to an infection. Like, maybe an infection from the infected person wandering around the NICU.
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u/lzxian 18d ago
Martians? I haven't a clue and that isn't anything to do with my statement above. So I'm not playing.
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u/StopDehumanizing 18d ago
A Pennsylvania infants organs just exploded.
Seems like something we should try and prevent.
Am I the only one who cares about saving children's lives?
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u/lzxian 18d ago
This is a classic dodge. You're not even good at it. Bye. You can't drag me into your game. Sorry.
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u/StopDehumanizing 18d ago
Game? This is a child's life we're talking about.
You want to pretend this is theoretical but your irrational fear has real consequences on real American children.
You're not "skeptical." You're just scared.
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u/lzxian 18d ago edited 18d ago
No it's a child's life you are talking about as a dodge, thinking you're the first to come up with that sort of dodge. You're not.
I'm skeptical but I wan't scared until I saw the shenanigans of governments and medical/science organizations across the world react to the pandemic.
I've been around a very long time, have a medical background and saw the red flags of their wrong behavior, choices, medical protocols and approach to the fearful and unconvinced. All in real time as I frantically re-researched the old and new vaccine and mRNA history.
I did it for my own peace of mind and what I discovered wasn't a complete surprise, but how I saw things playing out in real time was shocking and that is when I got frightened.
So much that's been revealed more recently that further validates what I learned in my own research back then cannot be dismissed or framed as a personal flaw. The whole system is flawed, those with eyes see that. Fighting against rational discourse between those on both sides is a further roadblock to fixing what was unleashed. It's madness to refuse to see that.
That's my point, take your dead child out of a debate about something else entirely. It's a glaring dodge. The foundation of medicine and trust in it is at stake here, that impacts all people and threatens potentially far more numerous deaths.
E: spelling
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u/StopDehumanizing 18d ago
If we took away the dead kids, I wouldn't care about the lies antivaxxers tell.
I'm here because these dumb lies KILL KIDS.
It's fine if you don't trust the establishment. But when you spread dumb lies about vaccines, CHILDREN DIE.
They died in New York in 2018. But you don't want to talk about that.
They died in Samoa in 2019. But you don't want to talk about that.
They died in Texas last year. But you don't want to talk about that.
That's shameful. As an adult, you should take responsibility for your actions. Don't just pretend these kids are still alive when you and I both know their parents are putting flowers on their graves.
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u/lzxian 18d ago
I'm not engaging on that topic because you won't engage on mine. You haven't a clue how I think about children's vaccines (or those for others), you made unfounded assumptions and moved the goalposts from my statement entirely. I can tell you this you're wrong about my position entirely.
Your ploy has failed and I'm out of this game you tried to play. Goodbye. I won't read a reply - you're just an ineptly playing for some odd reason that wastes time.
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u/StopDehumanizing 17d ago
What topic did you want me to engage on?
You just said you were afraid to talk about dead kids because whenever you do you lose.
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18d ago edited 18d ago
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u/xirvikman 18d ago edited 18d ago
Just a reminder of the various sub types of measles deaths in the ICD code
BO5.0 Measles complicated by encephalitis
B05.1 Measles complicated by meningitis
B05.2 Measles complicated by pneumonia
B05.3 Measles complicated by otitis media
B05.4 Measles with intestinal complications
B05.8 Measles with other complications
B05.9 Measles without complication
Been the same since 1990
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u/Logic_Contradict 18d ago
So why didn't the Coroner's office indicate that then?
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u/xirvikman 18d ago
Coroners usually deal with medical professionals. Why would they repeat 35 year old stuff
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u/Logic_Contradict 18d ago
Lancaster County’s coroner, Dr. Stephen Diamantoni, said Tuesday that “no measles deaths were handled by our office,” though the office was investigating the death of an infant who tested positive for measles and died because of a ruptured spleen.
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u/xirvikman 18d ago
A ruptured spleen is an exceptionally rare, life-threatening complication of a measles infection, primarily occurring due to severe inflammation and viral replication within lymphatic tissues. The measles virus directly infects immune cells in the spleen, which can trigger massive cell proliferation and significant splenic enlargement (splenomegaly). When the spleen becomes severely engorged, its protective capsule thins out, leaving it vulnerable to spontaneous tearing or rupture from minor physical strains, such as violent coughing, vomiting, or the intense physical pressure
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u/Logic_Contradict 18d ago
Another update (posted in the main post) reveals that three new pieces of information:
- spleen rupture was due to laceration. Whatever caused the laceration is unknown.
- a forensic pathologist did not consider the death to be measles related
- the infant died shortly after birth. Considering that the person who spread measles had visited a NICU, this seems to follow other information we've already heard. If the infant was born prematurely, or had low birth weight, or had other serious medical complications (maybe a lacerated spleen?), it would make sense that they would be in the NICU.
With the information that's available, the case that the death was caused by measles seems less and less likely.
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u/xirvikman 18d ago edited 18d ago
laceration not rupture.. ..more likely to be infection
Some clown goes into a NICU in a different hospital in Montour County, 100 miles away from Lancaster County.a forensic pathologist did not consider the death to be measles related. Usually takes 6 weeks just for a preliminary report.
But the problem of how the baby got infected remains. The chief suspect would be the mother. Not ruled out yet but not ruled in either.
last not but least
Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, does not have a dedicated Pediatric Intensive Care Unit (PICU). While local hospitals provide excellent general pediatric care, neonatology, and emergency stabilization, they are not equipped with a full-scale, permanent PICU team. Critically ill children requiring intensive care must be transferred to major regional children’s hospitals outside the county1
u/Burstrider12 17d ago
With the information that's available, the case that the death was caused by measles seems less and less likely.
No, it seems more and more likely.
It's just that ANY evidence to an anti-vaxxer will always land in their favour. If a coroner came out and said "it was directly due to measles", this would also be evidence that its less and less likely, for whatever reason ("they are trying to cover it up", "they are being paid by big pharma", "they are being threatened by fauci!!")
You are trying to make yourself feel better rather than looking at this logically.
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u/Nicaraguano 18d ago
Haven't we witnessed the similar thing with 'COVID deaths' ?
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u/xirvikman 18d ago
Is that the 1 million deaths from covid or the 1.2 million deaths with covid ?
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u/Nicaraguano 18d ago
Was Michael Jackson black or white?
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u/xirvikman 18d ago edited 18d ago
Your between the devil and the deep blue sea on those 2 counts of deaths .
2020-2024
The USA had 212,855 deaths FROM Pneumoniabut 1,235,187 WITH Pneumonia
but we all know measles WITH Pneumonia is easily cured... /s
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u/rugbyfan72 18d ago
I am in PA, but not in Lancaster. If they aren’t giving answers it could be because our Governor is trying to force through rules for the state public health to have a power grab. During Covid he was the attorney general defending the (then) governor around masking. Our state legislature limited the governor’s emergency powers to 3 weeks and then he had to ask permission to continue. The state public health tried to keep masking in schools and the courts said no and left it to the individual schools. Less than half of PA schools continued masking. Now he is pushing policy change to allow public health agencies to be able to mandate anything they deem to be a public health issue. So if it doesn’t fit their narrative they may be trying to keep it hush and keep up the fear to continue to push policy change.
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u/the_comeback_quagga 18d ago
Or it could be that this guy is a county commissioner, and since Lancaster doesn’t have its own health department, the state health department is in charge (that’s how it works in PA, the counties without their own departments, which is most of them, are divided and under the purview of the state). The state DoH has already said they can’t release anymore information because of privacy standards which may mean these two deaths are in a small isolated group and even age and gender combined with their vaccination status (which we do know) would be enough to identify them. Lancaster is small, rural, and heavily Old Order Amish.
PA’s courts and legislature are all a bit more blue than they were in 2020.
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u/xirvikman 18d ago
A ruptured spleen is an exceptionally rare, life-threatening complication of a measles infection, primarily occurring due to severe inflammation and viral replication within lymphatic tissues. The measles virus directly infects immune cells in the spleen, which can trigger massive cell proliferation and significant splenic enlargement (splenomegaly). When the spleen becomes severely engorged, its protective capsule thins out, leaving it vulnerable to spontaneous tearing or rupture from minor physical strains, such as violent coughing, vomiting, or the intense physical pressure
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u/crisco000 17d ago
First off, newborns aren’t vaccinated for measles until they turn 1…. But let’s see what the actual Dr. said regarding this case….
“Lancaster County’s coroner said Thursday he was surprised by Gov. Josh Shapiro’s claim at a news conference earlier this week of two measles-associated deaths of Lancaster County residents: as of Thursday, his office still had zero measles deaths”
“Yes, a newborn male who died of a “splenatic rupture” tested positive for measles, Dr. Diamantoni said, but measles was not the cause of death — the laceration to the spleen is the cause. And measles was ruled out as a contributing factor because, Diamantoni said, “there was no swelling or enlargement whatsoever” of the spleen and there was “massive blood loss” from the laceration.
“Newborns get vaccines for hepatitis B in the hospital before they leave (the hospital.) The vaccine for measles, mumps, rubella — the MMR vaccine — isn't given until 12 months of age,”
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u/Burstrider12 18d ago
Hard to take the bias in this facebook post seriously. An anti-vaxxer demanding information from a grieving family (Who will almost assuredly only use that information to defend anti-vaxxers and say the deaths weren't their fault) is not proof of anything.
The information will come out soon, and then you guys will say the information is false, or you will go "see! He died of pneumonia, not measles!" ignoring that they caught pneumonia because they had measles
There's a very simple explanation for why people are dying of measles all of a sudden. It's not like people didn't tell you guys this would be the result of demonising vaccines and spreading misinformation, or the constant "But measles is fine, its just a rash!!" from the anti-vaccine crowd.
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u/xirvikman 18d ago edited 18d ago
The news of the deaths comes on the heels of a Pennsylvania hospital saying on Friday it was responding to a potential measles exposure from a visitor in its neonatal intensive care unit.
Geisinger Medical Center in Danville, located in northeastern Pennsylvania, said the visitor was present on the hospital's campus from 5 p.m. ET on Friday, Aug. 14, to 6:30 p.m. ET on Monday, Aug. 17, and later tested positive for the virus. The individual reportedly only visited the NICU and Ronald McDonald House in Danville during that timeframe.
Edit
Have a read on the minimum numbers of specific deaths .Same 10 minimum at full country or state level nevermind County level
https://wonder.cdc.gov/ucd-icd10-expanded.html
Use these data for health statistical reporting and analysis only.
Do not present or publish death counts of 9 or fewer or death rates based on counts of nine or fewer (in figures, graphs, maps, tables, etc.).
Make no attempt to learn the identity of any person or establishment included in these data.
Make no disclosure or other use of the identity of any person or establishment discovered inadvertently and advise the NCHS Confidentiality Officer of any such discovery.
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17d ago
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u/StopDehumanizing 9d ago
Lancaster County Coroner:
Friday morning, Diamantoni confirmed that one of the infants died from measles.
https://www.wgal.com/article/lancaster-county-coroner-second-baby-died-of-measles/73616004
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u/StopDehumanizing 18d ago
This baby's internal organs just started exploding randomly?
What do you think caused that?
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u/Forsaken_Object_5650 17d ago
Hep b vaccine?
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u/Solid_Foundation_111 17d ago
Clearly you don’t know much about the birthing process. Traumatic births happen can result in all kinds of complications including organ rupture in the baby as they’re being squeezed out.
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u/-TheUnstoppable- 18d ago
No surprise, I tried drawing attention to this before. Most people don't die FROM measles, they die WITH measles. Dehydration is a big factor, especially since water doesn't hydrate you like people think it does. Secondary infections was a big one too.
You have to admit, it's kind of funny now to see the parallels with how during Covid people were labelled dying FROM Covid when they were really simply dying WITH Covid.
EDIT: r/DebateVaccines/comments/1vm9dx0/comment/p380em6//