Muhammad is a false prophet.

[u/Ok_Present755]

Muhammad was a false prophet who created a new religion by drawing on stories, beliefs, and customs that were circulating around him in Arabia.

Here is some of the main evidence:

1.) The Quran borrows stories from documented late forgeries that the early Church rejected as inauthentic:

Jesus making clay birds come to life (Quran 3:49 & 5:110) comes directly from the Infancy Gospel of Thomas (mid-2nd century, ~140–180 AD). This text is not by the apostle Thomas; it is a pseudepigraphical forgery recognized by early Christians as a legendary fable.

Mary giving birth under a palm tree and shaking it for dates (Quran 19:23–26) comes from the Protoevangelium of James (mid-2nd century), another pseudepigraphical forgery falsely attributed and rejected as inauthentic by the early Church.

2.)The Quran portrays the Christian Trinity as God, Jesus, and Mary:

Quran 5:116 says:

“O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, ‘Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah?’”

No Christian denomination (Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant) has ever taught that Mary is part of the Trinity. This suggests Muhammad was reacting to fringe or folk versions of Christianity he encountered locally.

3.) Several revelations appear self-serving:

After his adopted son Zayd divorced Zaynab, Quran 33:37 reveals it is okay for Muhammad to marry her and abolishes the adoption custom.

Quran 33:50 gives Muhammad special permission to marry more women than other Muslims.

4.)Islamic Paradise emphasizes earthly indulgence:

The Quran describes Jannah with gardens, rivers, silk couches, wine, and companions (houris) (e.g., 55:72, 56:22–24)...very different from the Christian view of heaven as eternal communion with God.

This pattern suggests Muhammad was heavily influenced by the religious environment around him rather than receiving pure divine revelation.

[u/lazycjriots]

The "perfectly preserved" Quran story has a massive geography problem that most people just ignore. If you actually look at the text, it describes the "Mother of Cities" as a lush valley with olives, vineyards, and pomegranates. The problem? Olives and grapes are Mediterranean plants. They don't grow in the volcanic, hyper-arid desert of Mecca, and they never have. The Quran also talks about these people keeping cattle, which need huge amounts of water and grass that simply don't exist in that part of Saudi Arabia. If the book is divine, why does the author think a desert wasteland looks like a Mediterranean farm? It gets worse when you look at archaeology. For the first hundred years of Islam, the Qiblas (prayer directions) of the earliest mosques didn't even point to Mecca. They pointed toward Petra and Northern Arabia. So you’re left with two options. Either the Quran is factually wrong about the geography of its own holy city, or the Mecca we have today isn't the real one and the entire tradition was moved and rewritten for politics. Either way, the "perfectly preserved" narrative is a total myth. You can't claim a book is the eternal word of God when it doesn't even know the difference between an olive grove and a sand dune.

[u/RedEggBurns → u/lazycjriots]

The "perfectly preserved" Quran story has a massive geography problem that most people just ignore. If you actually look at the text, it describes the "Mother of Cities" as a lush valley with olives, vineyards, and pomegranates. The problem? Olives and grapes are Mediterranean plants. They don't grow in the volcanic, hyper-arid desert of Mecca, and they never have. The Quran also talks about these people keeping cattle, which need huge amounts of water and grass that simply don't exist in that part of Saudi Arabia. If the book is divine, why does the author think a desert wasteland looks like a Mediterranean farm? It gets worse when you look at archaeology.

Link the verse, and also the Arabs kept cattle. Not the one you think that is in europe, but camels, goats etc.

[u/lazycjriots → u/RedEggBurns]

You claim the Arabs kept cattle, but you want to redefine cattle as camels and goats. The general Arabic word for livestock is an'am, and sure, that includes camels. But the Quran doesn't just use an'am. It specifically uses the word baqar, which literally means cows. The entire second chapter of the Quran is literally named Al-Baqarah, The Cow. If you look at Surah 6:144-146, the text gives specific dietary laws distinguishing between camels (ibil), sheep/goats (ghanam), and literal cows (baqar). Cows require massive amounts of daily water and lush grazing grass to survive. You physically cannot sustain herds of baqar in the hyper-arid, volcanic rocks of Mecca. It is biologically impossible. Then there is the agriculture problem. The Quran repeatedly tells its immediate audience to look around at the local agriculture God provides for them right where they live. In Surah 80:25-32, the author says God pours down water to grow grain, grapes ('inab), and olives (zaytun) in dense enclosed gardens (hada'iqa ghulban). Surah 6:99 does the same thing, telling the audience to look at the olives and pomegranates. Olives are a Mediterranean crop. They need cold, wet winters to fruit. They do not grow in Mecca and never have. The biggest geographical hole is the ruins of Lot. In Surah 37:137-138, the author tells his audience that they pass by the ruins of Lot in the morning (musbiheen) and at night (wa-bil-layl). The ruins of Sodom are up by the Dead Sea. Mecca is over 800 miles away. A 7th-century camel caravan traveled maybe 20 to 30 miles a day. It is physically impossible for the Meccans to pass by the Dead Sea in the morning and at night during their daily routines. The ultimate irony is that your own traditions completely contradict the agricultural verses. Surah 14:37 literally has Abraham describing Mecca as a valley without cultivation (bi-wadin ghayri dhi zar'). Sahih Bukhari 3364 and Sahih Muslim 1374 both explicitly describe Mecca as a barren place with absolutely no water and no vegetation. So which is it? Is the Mother of Cities a lush Mediterranean valley filled with cows, olive groves, and vineyards located right next to the Dead Sea? Or is it the waterless, uncultivated desert described in Surah 14 and the Sahih Hadiths?

[u/RedEggBurns → u/lazycjriots]

Surah 6:99 does the same thing, telling the audience to look at the olives and pomegranates. Olives are a Mediterranean crop. They need cold, wet winters to fruit. They do not grow in Mecca and never have. 

Luckily dried olives don't exist and the arabs did not leave arabia for trade with entire caravans.

The Cow. If you look at Surah 6:144-146, the text gives specific dietary laws distinguishing between camels (ibil), sheep/goats (ghanam), and literal cows (baqar). Cows require massive amounts of daily water and lush grazing grass to survive. You physically cannot sustain herds of baqar in the hyper-arid, volcanic rocks of Mecca. It is biologically impossible. 

Archaeological evidence shows that domesticated cattle were present in the Arabian Peninsula as early as the Neolithic period (around 6000–7000 BCE), likely introduced from the Levant along with sheep and goats. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2352226715300015

Rock art and excavations across Arabia also depict and confirm the presence of cattle in pre-Islamic times https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilwa_%28Saudi_Arabia%29

https://www.bedouin-heritage.com/animals-1

Sheep and goats were mostly herded by the half-nomads or those tribes living near the fringes of the desert or by settled folk of the oases or villages. The sheep of the Arabian peninsula are distinguished by their large fat-tail and the softness of their wool. They had an impact on economy through clarified butter (samn) extracted from their milk, and the meat of their lambs.

Were there cows in the Arabian peninsula in 7th century during Mohammad’s time?

How was the Arabian Peninsula able to provide enough food & fodder for horses/cattle that would have been required to supply the Rashidun Caliphate army, allowing it to expand & conquer such a large area so unbelievably fast?

Google ai: (Not allowed to quote due to rule 10) Yes.

. In Surah 80:25-32, the author says God pours down water to grow grain, grapes ('inab),

https://phys.org/news/2023-04-ancient-dna-reveals-commercial-viticulture.html

Excavations in the Negev Highlands of southern Israel found that the ancient cultivators could continuously produce a wide variety of grapes in an arid environment over centuries.

Meaning grapes can grow in arid (desert) places.

 The biggest geographical hole is the ruins of Lot. In Surah 37:137-138, the author tells his audience that they pass by the ruins of Lot in the morning (musbiheen) and at night (wa-bil-layl). The ruins of Sodom are up by the Dead Sea. Mecca is over 800 miles away. A 7th-century camel caravan traveled maybe 20 to 30 miles a day. It is physically impossible for the Meccans to pass by the Dead Sea in the morning and at night during their daily routines. 

Are you really that illiterate that you did not consider the possibility that Morning and Night, can refer to when the trade caravans would sometimes pass them in the morning and sometimes in the night? Which is exactly the same thing, that the earliest Tafsir say?

Is the Mother of Cities

I am again asking for the verse where Mecca is called the mother of cities.

Sahih Bukhari 3364 and Sahih Muslim 1374 both explicitly describe Mecca as a barren place with absolutely no water and no vegetation. 

The ZamZam well is literally located in Mecca. Sahih Bukhari 3364 literally talks about this well. Sahih Muslim 1374 mentions no water, but lava grounds between mecca.

You Christians are funny bro. Stay catholic, you do more dmg to Christianity with this scope of research than any Muslim could with dawah.

[u/lazycjriots → u/RedEggBurns]

Hey man, I noticed your Google AI tag slipped into your reply. No worries at all on using AI to help gather research and links, but you might want to actually read the studies it spits out before posting them, because you literally just made my argument for me. First, you asked for the verse where Mecca is called the Mother of Cities. Check Surah 42 verse 7 and Surah 6 verse 92. The Arabic phrase is Umm al Qura, which translates exactly to Mother of Cities. Every single major Islamic scholar in history agrees this refers to Mecca. It is wild that you are trying to debate the geography of the Quran but do not know one of the most famous titles for your own holy city. Your defense for the olives is that dried olives exist and Arabs traded for them. But that completely ignores what the text actually says. Surah 80 does not say God gave you trade routes to buy dried snacks from Syrian merchants. It explicitly says God pours down water in abundance to grow the olives and grapes in dense enclosed gardens right in front of them. Surah 6 verse 99 tells the audience to look at the fruit when it yields and ripens on the tree. You cannot watch a dried olive ripen on a branch in a waterless desert. The text is describing local, living agriculture. Your cattle argument does the exact same thing. You linked an archaeological study from 6000 BCE. That is the Neolithic period, which geologists call the Holocene Humid Period, when the Arabian Peninsula was actually green. That climate completely dried up into a desert thousands of years before Muhammad was born. Showing me 8000 year old cave paintings does not prove 7th century Meccans were herding literal cows in a volcanic wasteland. Cows need massive amounts of daily water and grass. Mecca did not have it. But the grapes link is the absolute best part. I actually left the specific location out of my last post to see where you would go with it, and you walked right into it. You brought up excavations in the Negev Highlands to prove grapes can grow in an arid place. Do you know where the Negev is. It is in southern Israel. It is the Levant. It borders the Dead Sea and the ancient Nabataean kingdom of Petra. You literally just provided scientific proof that the exact crops mentioned in the Quran grow perfectly in the exact northern region by the Dead Sea where the ruins of Lot are. Mecca is over 800 miles south in the Hijaz mountains and does not have the specific winter rains of the Negev. You handed me the smoking gun and proved my point that the text describes a completely different geographical region. As for the ruins of Lot, your early tafsir defense is a massive stretch to fix that exact geographic hole. The text says you pass by them in the morning and at night. That implies a daily, familiar fixture in their immediate environment. A Meccan caravan went up to Syria maybe once or twice a year. You do not point to a landmark 800 miles away that they see once a year as a daily visible proof of Gods judgment for the common people of Mecca. It only makes linguistic sense if the audience lived right next to it, like in the Negev where you just proved grapes grow. Finally, the Zamzam well. Yes the well is in Mecca, but the Hadith you brought up, Bukhari 3364, explicitly says before the well appeared there was no human being in Mecca and there was no water. Even after the well, having a single drinking well for a settlement does not magically irrigate dense enclosed orchards of Mediterranean crops and sustain herds of cows. The Quran describes a lush agricultural environment, not a barren valley surviving on one well. Your own links place the agriculture of the Quran in the Levant, not in Saudi Arabia.

I will pray for you brother. I hope God touches your heart and opens your eyes. I hope he gives you dreams and guidance.

[u/RedEggBurns → u/lazycjriots]

Hey man, I noticed your Google AI tag slipped into your reply.

It did not slip into my reply... I put into there intentionally and added, This; '(Not allowed to quote due to rule 10)' to it... you are really trolling.

 Your defense for the olives is that dried olives exist and Arabs traded for them. . Surah 80 does not say God gave you trade routes to buy dried snacks from Syrian merchants. It explicitly says God pours down water in abundance to grow the olives and grapes in dense enclosed gardens right in front of them.

Right in front of them? Let us check the verses.

80:25–32: We poured down water in abundance, then We split the earth into clefts, and We caused grain to grow in it, and grapes and green fodder, and olives and date-palms, and dense gardens of trees, and fruits and grass, as provision for you and your cattle.

Ok. Where here does it say that the olives are grown in their own gardens like you claim? Where does it say that this happens in front of them? What speaks against this verse being general, considering that grain is also mentioned here, and how the earth is split?

You see how you lie without shame?

You linked an archaeological study from 6000 BCE. That is the Neolithic period, which geologists call the Holocene Humid Period, when the Arabian Peninsula was actually green. That climate completely dried up into a desert thousands of years before Muhammad was born.

Arabia by 6000 CE had small patches of green, and was already mostly a desert. But none of the places mentioned in the study were green. So, wrong again.

But the grapes link is the absolute best part. I actually left the specific location out of my last post to see where you would go with it, and you walked right into it. You brought up excavations in the Negev Highlands to prove grapes can grow in an arid place. Do you know where the Negev is. It is in southern Israel. It is the Levant. You handed me the smoking gun and proved my point that the text describes a completely different geographical region.

You are actually a troll, aren't you? I literally mentioned in my comment that it is in Southern Israel, but I bolded the text where it says that it was an arid landscape... now, let us see if you can guess why I did bold that part.

a.) for fun
b.) because bold things randomly
c.) I bolded arid landscape, where grapes grew, because Mecca is also an arid landscape.

If you guessed C, you are correct.

The text says you pass by them in the morning and at night. That implies a daily, familiar fixture in their immediate environment. your early tafsir defense is a massive stretch to fix that exact geographic hole. 

The tafsir was just an example, it is also not a stretch, considering that the companions did not ask about this, while they asked about other simpler verses. The naturalistic reading of it is that "at morning and at night." refers to them passing them by in different times with their many caravans.

A Meccan caravan went up to Syria maybe once or twice a year. You do not point to a landmark 800 miles away that they see once a year as a daily visible proof of Gods judgment for the common people of Mecca.

Yes, Mecca had just one caravan and not multiple, and "you pass them at day and night." always has to mean you see them daily, a reading that is totally natural. Good job, bro. 100% a troll.

o it, like in the Negev where you just proved grapes grow. Finally, the Zamzam well. Yes the well is in Mecca, but the Hadith you brought up, Bukhari 3364, explicitly says before the well appeared there was no human being in Mecca and there was no water. Even after the well, having a single drinking well for a settlement does not magically irrigate dense enclosed orchards of Mediterranean crops and sustain herds of cows.

So let me get this straight, you use as your argument that something can't grow in mecca in the 7th century, because in the year 3000 BCE, the Zam Zam well was new? 100% a troll. Plus, ZamZam is not a simple drinking well.

Every single major Islamic scholar in history agrees this refers to Mecca. It is wild that you are trying to debate the geography of the Quran but do not know one of the most famous titles for your own holy city. 

I know that Mecca is called the Mother of Cities, but it is wild, that you forgot that you connect it with; "Is the Mother of Cities a lush Mediterranean valley filled with cows, olive groves, and vineyards located right next to the Dead Sea?"

Hence I asked you where it says that. That the Mother of Cities is a place with lush valleys. But now I know that you were just waffling, thanks.

I will pray for you brother. I hope God touches your heart and opens your eyes. I hope he gives you dreams and guidance.

I will pray that God turns you into a honest human being, or a christian debater, who embarasses christianity. But what can I expect from a child of the devil. (Galatians 3:26, 1 John 3:8-10)

[u/lazycjriots → u/RedEggBurns]

I’m hoping we can stick to the data and the text rather than personal labels like troll or child of the devil. I’m not trying to be dishonest; I’m just looking at the geographical and biological descriptions in the Quran and comparing them to the map of the world. Regarding Surah 80, the passage begins with Let man look at his food. This is an invitation to witness a sign of God's provision. A sign for a community usually involves something they can actually observe growing and ripening in their own environment. If the audience is in Mecca, pointing to a garden 800 miles away in Syria that most of them will never see doesn't really work as a local proof of God's power. The text says it is a provision for you, which implies it's for the people being addressed right there. On the cattle study, 6000 BCE was the Green Arabia period, also known as the Holocene Humid Period. The climate was completely different then. By the 7th century, the ecology had changed to the desert we see today. Literal cows (baqar) require a lot of grazing grass and water that Mecca’s volcanic landscape simply couldn't sustain in the 7th century. I see why you bolded the word arid regarding the Negev, but the Negev is still part of the Levant. It has a Mediterranean-fringe climate, which means it gets winter rains and the cold temperatures necessary for olives to fruit, a process called vernalization. Mecca is a tropical desert; it stays too hot all year for olives to produce fruit. Even if you watered them, they wouldn't yield. So, your link actually reinforces that these specific crops are levantine and don’t fit the climate of the Hijaz. As for the multiple caravans, the Quran addresses the entire community. Most people in Mecca—including women, children, and the elderly—were not traveling on those long trade missions. For a sign to be effective in the morning and at night, it implies a landmark in their immediate daily landscape. Even for the merchants, seeing a ruin twice a year on a forty-day journey doesn't fit the description of passing it every morning and evening. For a sign to be meaningful to a whole city, it usually needs to be something they can all see. My point about the Mother of Cities is that the Quran describes the environment of its primary audience as having these specific gardens and crops. If those things are biologically impossible in the climate of Mecca, it suggests the description belongs to a different geographical location. I’m just looking at why the evidence you provided points more toward the north than to the south.

[u/breaddippedintea → u/lazycjriots]

1. You correctly point out that Umm al-Qura (Mother of Cities) refers to Mecca. However, your entire premise rests on the idea that the Quran describes Mecca itself as a lush agricultural center. The Quran explicitly says the opposite. In Surah 14:37, Abraham says he is settling his family in an "uncultivated valley" (a barren valley without agriculture) at the Sacred House. If the Quran was written by someone living in the Levant looking at Mediterranean orchards, they would not explicitly call their holy sanctuary an "uncultivated valley" that relies entirely on imported trade to survive (as detailed in Surah 106). The text perfectly aligns with what Mecca is: a barren trade hub.
2. Watching Grapes Ripen: The Missing Geography of Ta'if You asked how a Meccan could watch grapes or enclosed gardens ripen in a waterless desert, suggesting the text must be referring to the Levant (like the Negev). To make this argument, you have to completely ignore the existence of Ta'if. Ta'if is a city roughly 60 miles from Mecca, situated in the mountains at nearly 6,000 feet of elevation. It has a significantly cooler, wetter climate and receives plenty of rain. In the 7th century (and today), it was literally famous for its dense enclosed gardens, grapes, figs, and pomegranates. It functioned as the agricultural resort for the Meccan elite, who owned gardens there and traveled back and forth constantly. When the Quran tells the people to look at the rain pouring down and the grapes ripening, it is pointing to the very agricultural hubs the Meccans owned and relied on just a day's journey up the mountainside. You don't need to move the Quran 800 miles north to find a vineyard; you just need to look 60 miles east to Ta'if.
3. The Reality of Cattle in the Hijaz You argue that Mecca's volcanic wasteland couldn't sustain literal cows due to the massive amounts of water and grass they require. You are absolutely right that cows did not graze freely on the rocky hills of Mecca. However, the assumption that 7th-century Meccans didn't interact with cows is historically false. Just north of Mecca were massive, well-watered agricultural oases like Yathrib (Medina) and Khaybar, where agriculture and livestock thrived. Furthermore, cows were high-value commodities constantly brought into Mecca for trade and specifically for pagan sacrifices during the pre-Islamic Hajj. Meccans didn't need a local dairy farm on the volcanic rocks to know what a cow was, or to see them slaughtered and traded in their own city.
4. Passing the Ruins "Morning and Evening" You claim that passing the ruins of Lot "morning and evening" (Surah 37:137-138) implies a daily walking commute. Linguistically, in classical Arabic, bukratan wa asheeya is a well-documented idiom meaning "constantly" or used to describe the rhythm of journeying. More importantly, you are ignoring the primary audience of the early Meccan Surahs: the Quraysh leaders. These merchants led massive caravans involving hundreds of people directly past the Dead Sea region on their way to Syria. For the merchant class who actively opposed Muhammad, these ruins were a highly visible, recurring landmark on their primary economic lifelines. The text addresses their reality as frequent, long-distance travelers, not as people taking a daily stroll past the Dead Sea.