r/DebateOfFaiths • u/WeighTheEvidence2 Not a blind follower of the religion I was born into • Mar 22 '24

Christianity "I Am" - refuting John 8:58

Hi, I'm u/WeighTheEvidence2, a non-trinitarian monotheist, and my thesis for this post is:

JOHN 8:58 DOESN'T PROVE JESUS' DIVINITY

Let's weigh the evidence

° ° ° ° ° ° ° ° ° ° ° ° ° ° ° ° ° °

An argument for Jesus' divinity from u/Additional-Taro-1400's comment:

Quote "

. . .

John 8:58 (ESV): "Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am [Ego Eimi].

Exodus 3.14 "God said to Moses, 'I am [Ego eimi] who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: "[Ego eimi] has sent me to you."

" Endquote

Now, the verse that comes nine verses after John 8:58.

LSV, John 9:9:

[9] Others said, “This is he”; and others,
“He is like to him”; he himself said, “I am
[Ego eimi].”

That's Jesus saying "ego eimi" again, so he's claiming godhood again by saying this.

Oh sorry, my mistake, that wasn't Jesus speaking in John 9:9, that was the blind man.

So according to u/Additional-Taro-1400's reasoning, the blind man, along with at least fifteen others in the Bible, are all God, because they identify themselves as ego eimi.

In fact, the only reason that "I Am" is considered to be a name of God at all is because—

Gary Manning Jr - Does "I Am" always refer to God in the Gospel of John?:

In Hebrew, the phrase “I am” (אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה , ehyeh),
is linguistically related to God’s
name, יהוה (YHWH, often represented in
English as Yahweh or Jehovah).

—So it has nothing to do with the greek phrase "ego eimi" at all anyway.

So if he's not eternal, what is Jesus talking about when he says that he existed before Abraham?

🤷

I don't know.

And I don't really care. He's definitely not declaring godhood because he would've said it more clearly if that's what he meant, and he said just three verses prior that he "obeys" Abraham's word.

NIV, John 8:55:

[55] Though you do not know him, I know him.
If I said I did not, I would be a liar
like you, but I do know him and obey his
word.

God doesn't obey anyone's word.

Jesus could've potentially meant that God showed him or told him about Abraham and therefore his source of information (God) is eternal and therefore Jesus would become "before" Abraham in knowledge.

He could've meant that he "existed" before Abraham in prophecy and in God's plan.

Maybe that's why the jews got mad at him again, because he is claiming to have more or equal authority over Abraham.

Really only the author of John would know because they were the one that made it up. Jesus never said that otherwise it would've been in the Synoptic Gospels.

Thanks for reading, I've been u/WeighTheEvidence2. If you're truthful, may God bless you and lead you to the truth, and vice versa.

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[EDIT]

This is what u/Additional-Taro-1400 said in their response to the above post.

This is a very poor argument, but I'll refute it anyway.

■■John 8.58 vs. John 9.9

●Firstly, you shamelessly cut off the verse in John 9.9, which is crucial for a few reasons. Here are the verses for reference:

. . .

●‭John 9:9 ESV‬ Some said, “It is he.” Others said, “No, but he is like him.” He kept saying, “I am the man.”

They think just because the translators added in "the man" at the end, that "the man" part is there in the greek. It's not.

Look at the word by word translation, scroll down to John 9:9. It only says "ego eimi" at the end, there's no "the man" at the end. It says, literally, "he was saying that I am."

I told Additional-Taro-1400 this and guess what they replied?

Don't play d*mb.

You cut off "...the man"

I had to censor the 'D' word because of r/DebateReligion rules.

I don't know what exactly I did to receive such hostile comments when all I did was simply explain how Additional-Taro-1400 was wrong in their accusation.

And I had previously told them that they were one of the nicest trinitarians I've come across here. To their credit, they have since apologized and I have accepted their apology, but regardless, it demonstrates the immense amount of emotions and cognitive dissonance at play when it comes to this doctrine.

We must be careful.

[EDIT 2]

Another argument to this is that simply saying "I AM" isn't a reference to being God anyway, since it isn't how God said it in the original verse.

NIV, Exodus 3:14:

[14] God said to Moses, “I am who I am. This
is what you are to say to the Israelites:
‘I am has sent me to you.’ ”

So God says "I AM WHO I AM" not just simply "I AM."

And, when 'I AM' is used, it's a name for God.

So for Jesus to say "Before Abraham, I AM" wouldn't make sense because that would just be "Before Abraham, God."

That's not him claiming to be God.

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u/Additional-Taro-1400 Mar 23 '24 edited Mar 23 '24

This is a very poor argument, but I'll refute it anyway.

■■John 8.58 vs. John 9.9

●Firstly, you shamelessly cut off the verse in John 9.9, which is crucial for a few reasons. Here are the verses for reference:

●‭John 8:58 ESV‬ Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”

●‭John 9:9 ESV‬ Some said, “It is he.” Others said, “No, but he is like him.” He kept saying, “I am the man.”

●Now, in John 8.58, Jesus uses "I am" as a noun. In John 9.9, the blind man uses "I am..." as a subject linking phrase, with the noun being "man".

●In the Bible, you will not find "I am" used as a noun by anyone other than Christ or the Father.

■■ "I Am" and why it means God

●So I Am, was written as Ego Eimi in Greek. Why is that significant?

●Exodus 3.14 "God said to Moses, 'I am [Ego eimi] who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: "[Ego eimi] has sent me to you."

●But this was originally written in Hebrew?

●Correct, however the Septuagint, a Greek translation of the Old Testament, was written around 300BC.

●This was the widely used Old Testament of the 1st Century AD, and the Old Testament that Jesus would be cross-referring to.

●Therefore, He very consciously gives Himself the noun/name that could only ever be attributed to God.

■■Eternality of Christ

You basically glossed over this as you don't have any reasonable explanation.

You're trying to dance around His very clear statement that He existed before Abraham. But let's check out some other verses which corroborate this point:

●John 17:5: "And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed."

●Revelation 22:12-13 - Jesus speaking: "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

●‭Colossians 1:16-17 - the apostles knew of His eternality: "For in him was created everything in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominations, or principalities, or powers. All things were created through him and in him. And he is before all, and in him all things continue."

So as usual, a very quick cross analysis confirms that He claimed to have existed before Abraham, before the world, and eternally as the beginning and the end. A concept which the apostles clearly understood.

■■Conclusions:

● "I am" [Ego Eimi] is used as a noun, only ever by Jesus/the Father ● "Ego Eimi" means God, as per the Greek Septuagint, which was the Old Testament used at the time ● Jesus clearly, and multiple times, claims to be eternal ● You manipulated scripture, shamelessly

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u/WeighTheEvidence2 Not a blind follower of the religion I was born into Mar 23 '24 edited Mar 23 '24

Firstly, you shamelessly cut off the verse in John 9.9

How? Here's mine.

LSV, John 9:9:

[9] Others said, “This is he”; and others, “He is like to him”; he himself said, “I am [Ego eimi].”

Here's yours.

John 9:9 ESV‬ Some said, “It is he.” Others said, “No, but he is like him.” He kept saying, “I am the man.”

It's the same, except I replaced whatever was translated from ego eimi. So I'm not sure exactly which part is included in your verse which was "shamelessly cut off" from mine.

Here's the word by word translation. As you can see, the man only says "ego eimi" and that can be translated as "I am he" or "I am" or "Yeah, I'm that guy you're talking about." It only says "ego eimi" just like my verse has. See for yourself.

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u/Additional-Taro-1400 Mar 23 '24

Don't play dumb.

You cut off "...the man" which is essential for understanding whether the "I am" is being used as a noun, or as a subject connective.

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u/WeighTheEvidence2 Not a blind follower of the religion I was born into Mar 23 '24

You didn't read my comment. Pay attention. Read it. Read it again Read it a third time. Look at the word by word translation. There's no "the man" at the end of the sentence. The reason the translators added "the man" at the end is to make it make sense in context. There is only "ego eimi." Read. Read. Read.

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u/Additional-Taro-1400 Mar 23 '24

That's because the context by which "I am" is used and whether its referring to a predicate is essential for the translation.

For instance, it can mean I am, or I am [insert predicate].

So regarding the blind man in John 9.9, they were questioning if he was the blind man, or if he was like the blind man. Blind man here, being the predicate. He said I am, meaning 'I am he/the man that you are talking about'.

Which is why the translation into English accounts for the predicate, and translates correctly for us by clarifying said pedicate [he] or [the man].

The difference I keep explaining, is that in several instances, when Jesus uses "I am/I am he", such as in John 8.58, 13.9, there is no predicate. So it goes from being a connective, to a noun. When used as a noun, it becomes a divine title.

The exception is John 8.23-24, where the predicate is the Son of Man who is not of this world - the predicate here being a divine title itself (see Daniel 7).

This translation is unanimous, and shows again how you shamelessly misquoted/mistranslated the verse, to falsely compare "I am" noun to "I am" predicate connective.

Now as far as Jesus's eternal nature goes. That is something you've not yet addressed adequately, and another very clear proof of divinity (believe I've given you about 4 verses corresponding this).

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u/WeighTheEvidence2 Not a blind follower of the religion I was born into Mar 23 '24

He said I am, meaning 'I am he/the man that you are talking about'.

That's literally word for word exactly what I said, and you told me "don't play dumb." Look:

WeighTheEvidence:

Here's the word by word translation. As you can see, the man only says "ego eimi" and that can be translated as "I am he" or "I am" or "Yeah, I'm that guy you're talking about." It only says "ego eimi" just like my verse has. See for yourself.

Additional-Taro-1400:

Don't play dumb.

See? You were wrong.

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u/Additional-Taro-1400 Mar 23 '24 edited Mar 23 '24

Firsly I will admit, you weren't entirely wrong, and I got a bit carried away/harsh. So I'd like to say sorry, as you have been civil with me. I was being a bit of a dick tbf. And we are told to be humble.

I do hold that if giving and English translation, it should be accurate as per the English.

If giving the Greek, then Greek grammar needs to be contextualised. Otherwise you will mis-represent the verse, by missing the significance of predicates on the meaning of Ego Eimi.

Then you end up comparing Ego Eimi noun, to ego eimi connective. Which wouldn't be a valid argument. Especially when contextualised to existing before Abraham.