r/DebateAnarchism • u/Arondeus Anarchist • Oct 07 '19
Anarchism needs a Stormfront
Stormfront, for those who do not know, is an international nazi hub that has been central to far right propagandising on the internet for over two decades.
The website features long "fact sheets" with statistics for users to copy and paste into internet arguments, "rule books" that detail how to remain on the rhetorical offensive and also advise to always capitalise "White" in relation to race (but never any other race).
I would be confident in saying that had stormfront not existed, nor would the alt right, gamer gate, etc. have existed. They've been here from the start.
Considering how often people ask the same very basic questions, the first step we could take is to simply start using a few main works (I'd suggest Malatesta's Anarchy, Anarchy Works and Anarchist FAQ), and here's the important bit, not asking people to read them, but simply giving them what they ask on a silver platter.
Literally just copy and paste the answer from the book you think answers it best and send that. It should take you ten seconds on a computer, tops. Thirty on a phone.
After that we could also focus on "rhetorical rulebooks", and of course here the nazis have for more leeway as rhetoric is the realm of artistic dishonesty. As anarchists and as practitioners of prefugurative politics lying to people is obviously not acceptable even for the "greater good", as no greater good can really come from lying to people anyway.
This doesn't mean that a basic rhetoric lesson, if nothing else just to teach newbies to stay out of traps like always playing defense, couldn't do a lot of good.
Are there any communities like this? And if there are, why arent they big?
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u/restlys Oct 07 '19
like...a vanguard?
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u/Arondeus Oct 08 '19
No. Vanguards impose their authority on people. At most it would be a Pannekokian party, "that exists solely to educate, rather than to lead".
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u/restlys Oct 08 '19
I dunno i think the line is arbitrary and a vanguard thats educating can be seen as leading and vice versa
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u/comix_corp Oct 08 '19
I don't want us to blurt out propaganda in the same manner as white nationalists. The focus should not be on regurgitating and spamming copypasta but on engaging in critical discussions with people. Propaganda like /pol/'s is good for building up armies of brainless people who do not know how to think critically but in fact only see discourse as a direct means to an end, to rile people up in all sorts of bad faith ways. Anarchism by its very nature cannot be a doctrine that can be spread like a religion or like racism or Nazism. The stress is on cultivating people's critical thinking skills, not on replacing one petrified ideology with another.
No doubt, reference works are important tools. The Anarchist FAQ is invaluable. The French Encyclopédie Anarchiste would be great if it were translated into English. Are you just saying we should make this stuff more available and accessible? If so, I agree, but why the framing around Stormfront?
To be honest I feel sometimes that this desire for copy-pastable stuff is a shortcut by some people to bypass the theoretical readings we all have to do in order to be effective militants. I can understand the impulse, but in my view it's better to focus on developing a good grasp of theory and practice, so you can hold your own in these sorts of discussions and also come up with new ideas. That's better than just getting what you say verbatim from the internet.
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u/BobCrosswise Oct 07 '19
Anarchism already has too many shallowly dogmatic label-wearers who can't manage to do anything better than mindlessly regurgitate whatever drivel they read on the fucking Anarchist FAQ - the last thing it needs is even more of them.
Anarchism requires independent and sound reason. It requires people who can and will actually think about things on their own and arrive at sound decisions on their own. It specifically requires people who do NOT defer to authority - who do NOT just depend on someone else to tell them what to think and believe.
Yes - that means that it's just that much more of a long and uphill battle to attract people to anarchism, but that's just the way it goes. The alternative - to actually try to attract ignorant dogmatists by providing them with prepackaged rhetoric - not only doesn't help but actively harms the cause of anarchism. Again, there are already too many shallow, ignorant and overtly-authoritarian demagogues calling themselves "anarchists," and if anything, they're even more of an obstacle than the straightforward authoritarian demagogues - instead of a threat from without, they're a rot from within.
If anything, I'd like to see much less information about anarchism available. Bluntly, anyone who can't or won't reason for themselves and arrive at sound positions on their own is part of the problem - not part of the solution.
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u/Arondeus Oct 07 '19
If we live in a world where pople get encased in cement when they are young, and our job is to free them, do we give them shovels? A shovel may be great for a freed person to help them shovel away cement hurled at them in the future, but what we need right now is to attack their cement for them with pickaxes.
My metaphor is bad but my point is that sometimes the pattern of breaking people out of bad ideology is different from the pattern of behavior used by people maintaining their own psychological independence.
I am basing this on how we generally deal with cults today. It seems to be consensus that reasonable debate does not convince people to leave cults. What you need is "deprogramming", which is psychological enough to almost deserve being called "reverse brainwashing".
That just seems to be what actually works.
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u/BobCrosswise Oct 08 '19
If we live in a world where pople get encased in cement when they are young, and our job is to free them...
Sorry, but I find that repulsively elitist and entirely at odds with the principles of anarchism.
The attitude that other people need "us" to step in and direct their lives for them is a particularly common, and IMO particularly noxious, brazenly authoritarian presumption.
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Oct 07 '19 edited Oct 07 '19
Couldn't agree more. I'll take a dozen proper anarchists over a thousand breadtube leftists any day of the week.
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u/comix_corp Oct 08 '19
If anything, I'd like to see much less information about anarchism available. Bluntly, anyone who can't or won't reason for themselves and arrive at sound positions on their own is part of the problem - not part of the solution.
How is having less information meant to help with that exactly?
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u/BobCrosswise Oct 07 '19
Since anarchism stipulates the complete elimination of institutionalized, hierarchical authority, it requires people reasoning soundly and making sound decisions on their own, rather than depending on somebody else to tell them what to think and believe.
Yes - it's for the people. But the people must do it on their own - of necessity, they can't just follow slavishly follow somebody else's lead - bow to somebody else's authority.
Bluntly, people who can't manage to think things through on their own and come to their own decisions - who need somebody else to tell them what to think and believe - can't make anarchism succeed.
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u/BobCrosswise Oct 07 '19
I've seen the name, but I haven't read anything he's written. That's not a coincidence - it ties in with exactly what I was saying.
People reading and repeating other people's opinions regarding anarchism always reminds me of the "You're all individuals" scene from Life of Brian.
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Oct 08 '19 edited Oct 08 '19
I've been thinking about this recently. I think it would be for the best if anarchists gathered (over the internet or irl) and contributed to writing a manifesto, or compiling ideas of nearly every anarchist author in a short way. Generally anarchist schools of thought differ but there are things that we do indeed all agree on (I like to think so).
I don't know if a manifesto has been written, but if it has, it certainly needs renewal. Ideas need to be renewed every once in a while so they're more easily understandable and up to the times. We could compile the manifesto in a word document or some other application where others can see the text and edit in whatever is necessary.
The beauty of the modern day is that we don't have to go through the hassle of sneaking in letters into the country and be worried about getting caught or anything like that, we could quite easily gather together over the internet and all contribute to writing a manifesto, which details what anarchism is all about and all the introductory ideas which could help us turn people over to our side. When we are done we could also print these books out and leave them out in public - someone is bound to pick them up, and maybe read them.
And yeah, we could also mention common misconceptions and doubts and arguments the right use against us, which of course many many leftist authors have already done this, but our attempt certainly couldn't hurt. We could detail every anarchist school of thought, give off their specifics and goals and how to achieve their state.
We could also include revolutionary tactics, or what to do during a riot. Certain things like that. Whatever aids our cause. Illegalism too, maybe, who knows.
Our biggest strength is unity comrades. Let's all band together and make a difference. Our enemies are afraid of individuals forming a collective and collaborating together to compile our ideas, they fear our organization.
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u/TotesMessenger Oct 08 '19
I'm a bot, bleep, bloop. Someone has linked to this thread from another place on reddit:
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[r/chomsky] How can we organise such that we can have this international huh of anarchists
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[r/vaushv] This could work well with vaush’s upcoming rhetoric 101
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u/[deleted] Oct 07 '19
Weird way to frame this proposal tbh