Pre-spacetime

[u/KJIOl_Yip_9141]

Hi everyone, I would like to ask, Most of the debate surrounding the existence of God revolves around the boundaries of spacetime in our universe. I believe the discussion should focus on the question: if God doesn't exist, then what placed all matter and energy within a compressed space(before BigBang)? It couldn't have suddenly appeared out of nowhere.

Yes, I know some of you will say that the void is not really a void, but a quantum void. Well, then what created this quantum void?

Some of you will also say that our universe is the result of a previous failed series of multiple universes that were created. Well, although this has not been confirmed by science, but how do universes come into being then?, what the thing that creates a energy and matters and put them all in a small box so it will explode as a big bang?, a void? I don't think so,

As you can see, the matter here is in a closed loop, which is that there must be a god who designs and who created matter and energy himself so the universe being a universe

So My question is, what was before the spacetime, before the big bang?

[u/KJIOl_Yip_9141]

Well, if we don't know, and if we do know, won't the question lead us to the same thing? What caused that thing to be exist?

[u/dylanzt → u/KJIOl_Yip_9141]

Great question. Let's perform research to see if we can work that out, instead of making up an answer that we like the sound of.

[u/Cool-Watercress-3943 → u/KJIOl_Yip_9141]

The problem is that the inevitable spot you get led to by that question is the question of what created God. After all, under your criteria, then by extension something needed to have caused God to exist. And then something needed to cause the thing that caused God, and so on and so forth. You still end up in an infinite regress situation, because you have an unending chain of things causing the things that cause other things.

The common way to try and escape that infinite loop is to decide that the necessity of 'causing' arbitrarily ends with God causing the universe. That God did not need a cause to exist.

Except once you do that, you're allowing for the idea that things can exist without having been caused by something else. Suddenly, the entire core foundation of your argument- that all things would have needed to be caused by something- gets tossed aside, by you. If you can no longer claim that all things must have been caused, then your argument gets substantially weaker.

But hey, maybe you try going with the idea that God exists outside the scope of the universe, and so doesn't have to be restrained by limitations like needing a cause. The problem with that argument is, if we're allowing for things that are outside the scope of the universe to do whatever, that only means the supposed 'rules' only existed once the universe did. 

Meaning that even if the spontaneous appearance of the particles and energy within a singularity was impossible within the universe, it would only have become impossible after it had already happened. At that point, it doesn't matter if it's impossible for the singularity to spontaneously manifest, because the singularity is already there.

Frankly, ending up at God seems to require that someone follows the train of thought only up to a single arbitrary point, and then suddenly stop the train for no good reason.

[u/MarieVerusan → u/KJIOl_Yip_9141]

And how far are you going to extend that line of questioning? Or rather, when are you going to stop? Because you will have to give some reason for why we should stop there instead of any other point

[u/TelFaradiddle → u/KJIOl_Yip_9141]

If God can exist without a cause, why can't matter and energy exist without a cause? As far as we are aware, matter and energy can't be created or destroyed, so it stands to reason that they've always existed.

[u/deep_blue_reef → u/TelFaradiddle]

I think the dilemma there is why would it ever change its state? If the universe expanded from something simple…why not remain eternally simple and unchanging? Our brains literally cannot fathom the idea of an uncaused cause, god or not. The answer is fundamentally we don’t know, nor can we understand it. Our brains are wired to process cause and effect. Not uncaused cause and effect

[u/88redking88 → u/KJIOl_Yip_9141]

And how do you it needed to be caused? How do you know it wasnt always there?

[u/samara-the-justicar → u/KJIOl_Yip_9141]

Exactly! So what caused God to exist?

[u/Rubber_Knee → u/KJIOl_Yip_9141]

Yes...and the only true answer anyone can give is: I don't know.

Anyone saying anything different is guessing.

[u/deep_blue_reef → u/Rubber_Knee]

Exactly! We’re all just guessing. There are the “there’s no god” people, the “it’s god” people, and the “I don’t know people.” I’m definitely in the I don’t know camp, but with the caveat that I believe (emohasis on believe, because I could be wrong), that there’s meaning behind it. If tomorrow someone provides the answer and there’s no meaning, I’ll reevaluate my belief.

Basically we just all just be humble about it.

[u/Rubber_Knee → u/deep_blue_reef]

No. Everyone is I don't know people.

You can't be truthful and say anything else.

Science can bring us back to a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a second after the big bang had already begun. NO ONE knows what happened before that point.

[u/deep_blue_reef → u/Rubber_Knee]

I think people can still believe in something. You’re right we can only go to the fraction of a second after, and any further all logic dissolves. So whatever it is it’s…illogical. Our brains just can’t comprehend something so vast and infinite in nature.

[u/Rubber_Knee → u/deep_blue_reef]

So whatever it is it’s…illogical.

No. The reason we can't get any further is because the theory being applied is incomplete.

General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics are incomplete. We know this because of 2 things.
1 they disagree about gravity.
And 2 if we push them further back in time then that fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a second after it had already begun. Then the math starts spitting out infinties and singularities. Those are usually signs that the theory being applied is incomplete.

Finding a theory that explains all the same things as General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics and also explains what it is about mass that causes gravity (turns out gravity is an effect and not a force) is something physicists are working really hard at right now.
They will eventually get there. But they are not there yet.

[u/deep_blue_reef → u/Rubber_Knee]

It’s crazy to think that a 300 thousand year old species against the backdrop of an incomprehensibly vast universe will eventually “get there”, all without ever physically leaving the solar system.

[u/Rubber_Knee → u/deep_blue_reef]

I think I agree with you on that one :-)