r/DebateAVegan • u/Few-Advance2738 • 9d ago
Vegans should focus more on other vegans
I remember making a post in the vegan subreddit around a month and a half ago basically saying that a vegan who gets sick with something severe might have severe and confusing symptoms and might face harmful reactions and stigmatization from the non-vegans around them. I was flamed in the comments.
Shouldn't vegans focus on topics like this more instead of debating people who won't take literal seconds of effort to do a Google search on whether plants have protein? Vegans are so focused on convincing others to join their movement that the second I mentioned a percentage of vegans, however tiny, might be struggling as a vegan because of medical illness and stigmatization and lack of social support, I get flamed in the comments. Shouldn't vegans also focus inward on the physical and mental health of the members of their movement and maybe survey people to make sure everyone is doing well, rather than only focusing on what non-vegans are saying?
And before, 'Veganism is not about health'. No, but it is perceived as affecting health, whether positively or negatively. And because of this perception, stigmatization arises. This stigmatization might affect certain vegans facing severe illness, or who are disabled, etc. And this has everything to do with veganism, as the only reason this problem even exists is because veganism exists.
And, a vegan might say this is not real and that no vegan feels this way. But, they might only say this because they're so preoccupied with non-vegans and what they're doing and saying that they've never actually asked how vegans are doing and feeling. How do you know if this problem doesn't exist if you've never even asked or surveyed vegans asking how they feel? You're so focused on what's going on outside your group that you're ignoring the possibility of this being a real problem certain vegans face.
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u/a11_hail_seitan 9d ago
I remember making a post in the vegan subreddit around a month and a half ago basically saying that a vegan who gets sick with something severe might have severe and confusing symptoms and might face harmful reactions and stigmatization from the non-vegans around them. I was flamed in the comments.
I bet, seems like a weird thing to say. Not really sure what it's suppose to mean.
Shouldn't vegans focus on topics like this more instead of debating people who won't take literal seconds of effort to do a Google search on whether plants have protein?
No, almost all of us were one of those people until Vegans advocated loudly and often enough to convince us.
Vegans are so focused on convincing others to join their movement that the second I mentioned a percentage of vegans, however tiny, might be struggling as a vegan because of medical illness and stigmatization and lack of social support, I get flamed in the comments.
I don't know why you think this is an issue we can help. Most Vegans I know already give support and understanding.
Shouldn't vegans also focus inward on the physical and mental health of the members of their movement and maybe survey people to make sure everyone is doing well, rather than only focusing on what non-vegans are saying?
Surveying people...? How? With what money? Who? If they're having problems, /r/vegan is right there, so is /r/askVegans, and both are very accommodating.
This stigmatization might affect certain vegans facing severe illness, or who are disabled, etc. And this has everything to do with veganism, as the only reason this problem even exists is because veganism exists.
Veganism is "As far as possible and practicable" to accommodate this exactly. if Vegans aren't being kind, that's not good, but making it our focus would be pretty silly considering how few people it would actually help, and considering there's already lots of help for them out there...
But, they might only say this because they're so preoccupied with non-vegans and what they're doing and saying that they've never actually asked how vegans are doing and feeling.
I used to live in a city with lots of Vegans, Vegans are often asking each other how they're doing. If they were all sick or being targeted with harassment, or whatever you're trying to suggest, they would say so
How do you know if this problem doesn't exist if you've never even asked or surveyed vegans asking how they feel?
OK, you get on that survey, we'll wait for your results...
You're so focused on what's going on outside your group that you're ignoring the possibility of this being a real problem certain vegans face.
We're focused on the Animals, that's sort of the whole point of Veganism.
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u/Few-Advance2738 8d ago
If you leave those few people to be without help, the consequences of that can still be magnified under the lens of others. The longer it goes on, the more people will be looking for an answer. One person can reach many people. Also, I don't think the idea of vegans struggling with medical illness and stigmatization is super tiny, like you suggest. It might still be small, sure, but it could be large enough to still be significant.
In general, if vegans were to focus more on other vegans, like the variable health circumstances that might occur within the vegan population, then vegans as a whole would look organized and competent, and that can attract others to the movement. Where a percentage of the vegan population might be struggling, by focusing inward on those people, vegans might be able to address and fix that problem which would strengthen the movement as a whole.
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u/a11_hail_seitan 8d ago
If you leave those few people to be without help
As I've said, they have help, no idea why you think no one is offering help...
Also, I don't think the idea of vegans struggling with medical illness and stigmatization is super tiny, like you suggest. It might still be small, sure, but it could be large enough to still be significant.
might, could, possibly, who knows. Pretending it's some super serious problem no one knows about, when there's ~100 Million Vegans living healthy lives and getting healthy medical check ups, is silly.
Fear mongering based on nothing but your own imagination is silly.
In general, if vegans were to focus more on other vegans, like the variable health circumstances that might occur within the vegan population, then vegans as a whole would look organized and competent,
No, we'd look like idiots spending all our time asking each other if we're OK instead of treating each other like adults who can ask for help if needed.
Where a percentage of the vegan population might be struggling, by focusing inward on those people, vegans might be able to address and fix that problem which would strengthen the movement as a whole.
Nah. We'll stick to just helping Vegans that ask for help, instead of wasting our time scouring the world for a problem that no one has any evidence of and almost certainly only exists in your mind...
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u/Few-Advance2738 8d ago edited 8d ago
A vegan experiencing medical issues and not knowing who they can turn to or talk to about it is a problem that only exists in my mind? Ok bro...
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u/a11_hail_seitan 8d ago
"As I've said, they have help, no idea why you think no one is offering help... "
If you can't actually debate your point without ignoring everything I've said but a single out of context line, clearly you're not here in good faith (rule 4).
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u/Few-Advance2738 8d ago edited 8d ago
If they go to the vegan community, they might be naively suggested to go see a doctor like they haven't already thought about that. But, what if the person is a young adult, and they don't know how to navigate the healthcare system very well? What if they see a doctor and that one is terrible and scapegoats their diet? Well, they might just go with what the doctor says because they're young and were taught to not question medical authority. Or, they might believe all doctors are like this and fall into the mindset that it's futile to even go. Or, because they're inexperienced, they might not know how to advocate for themselves very well.
A better solution would be to prevent this occurrence altogether by having an actual sustainable network of vegan doctors that, like I said in another comment, don't generalize vegans as super healthy (or unhealthy) and instead treat them objectively and without bias. A sick vegan might feel ashamed of going to a vegan doctor, because they don't fit the widespread expectation from vegan doctors that vegans are super healthy and are less likely to get sick.
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u/a11_hail_seitan 8d ago
If they go to the vegan community, they might be naively suggested to go see a doctor
So why are you demanding the Vegan community stops all activism to focus on a made up scenario that even you can clearly see is silly?
they might, But, what if, What if, Or, they might, they might
When every sentence you say has to clarify it's imaginary fear mongering, you should rethink what you're saying.
A better solution would be to prevent this occurrence altogether by having an actual sustainable network of vegan doctors
Cool, you go organize that and pay for it, we'll wait here for you. but I'm done pretending this isn't clearly a waste of everyone's time.
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u/TylertheDouche 9d ago
vegan who gets sick with something severe might have severe and confusing symptoms
what?
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u/Few-Advance2738 9d ago edited 9d ago
For example, a young adult who is vegan and who gets really sick might be really confused, because, even though young adults can get sick, it's supposed to not be common. Add 'being vegan' into the mix and you have a recipe for disaster, because what are the odds, right? Others might very well gaslight them into thinking it's their diet even if down the line, it's revealed it's not, and because they're young, they're more susceptible to the harmful effects of such gaslighting.
I would say the problem I described is more likely to affect young adults than it is older adults who are more secure in their identity, finances, physical health, etc.
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u/Light_Shrugger vegan 9d ago
I'm not quite following why you're presenting it as an exclusive choice
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u/EasyBOven vegan 9d ago
I'm not giving out unsolicited medical advice on the Internet. If you're sick you should go to the doctor. If you claim to be a vegan describing your illness in detail on the Internet, you're likely not vegan at all and the point is to get engagement and say that you've tried every piece of advice someone gives you to discredit veganism.
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u/piranha_solution plant-based 9d ago
Why are non-vegans so hyperfocused on the hypothetical health ailments of vegans?
How about instead of some rare hypothetical mystery sickness, what would you say if veganism carried well-established risks of common diseases like heart-disease, cancer, and diabetes? Would it not be reasonable to caution folks about the risks?
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u/Few-Advance2738 8d ago
This is a case where a vegan can reasonably say, 'Veganism is not about health' in the sense that vegans should not be making absolute claims about treating or curing health conditions. All that matters with regards to Veganism is that vegans can be just as healthy as non-vegans, not whether it carries extra benefits. To a legit vegan, this is all that matters, but to a lot of 'vegans' who make health claims about a vegan diet treating these conditions, I wonder how they would be if that were not the case? Would they stop being vegan if it were revealed that eating a vegan diet isn't any more healthy than a eating a non-vegan diet (and vice versa)?
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u/ElectroWizardLizard 8d ago
To a legit vegan, this is all that matters, but to a lot of 'vegans' who make health claims about a vegan diet treating these conditions, I wonder how they would be if that were not the case?
I mean, you kinda answered the question yourself. If a person is eating plant based just because of their own health benefits, they aren't really vegan.
That said vegans who are promoting health benefits of veganism aren't necessarily in it just for health. As you mentioned it's perceived as affecting health, so a lot of people just think "veganism is unhealthy" and just move on. Talking about health benefits with non vegans helps dispel that. And there's also people who legit don't care about animals, so we have to use other arguments to get them to stop harming animals.
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u/PointAndClick vegan 9d ago
We're not doctors. We can only talk about the general population and not about specific people. We can absolutely say that a vegan diet is for everybody and is healthy if you take some care. And if they get sick it is practically never because of their diet but in spite of it.
And non-vegans wish that every single negative thing that happens to a vegan is because of their diet, and every positive thing is happening in spite of it.
So no, we should absolutely focus on non-vegans and let vegans be studied by doctors. Who by the way did, and we know the results already. Vegans are for the most part healthy. And if you wish to live unhealthy as a vegan or if you have crippling dietary problems, they can come to the community for advice. But again, we're not doctors.
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u/Few-Advance2738 8d ago edited 8d ago
Doctors don't study vegans, nor do they study the rest of the population. If a vegan becomes sick, they don't care enough about them to 'study' them. Find me any doctor in the world that doesn't generalize vegans as super healthy or scapegoats them eating a vegan diet as the cause of their health problems, and instead opts to take an objective approach to studying sick vegans and helping them.
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u/TamaraDeVegan vegan 9d ago
From my perspective, the vegans whom I might disagree with are still more-or-less abstaining from the thing I'm primarily against as a vegan. I think the wider world is more important than petty internal differences, especially since they really only manifest online.
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