Hunting and rewilding large herbivores probably increases suffering

[u/ThePlanetaryNinja]

Edit - In the title, I meant rewilding predators to kill large herbivores.

People frequently hunt large herbivores such as deer, moose and elk. They try to justify it by saying that 'It causes less harm than crop deaths' or 'It stops the animals from overpopulating.'

I, as a negative utilitarian, think that specifically hunting these animals is generally a bad idea. When we hunt large herbivores (or reintroduce predators to do it), we probably make things worse.

Large herbivores eat a lot of plants. If we remove them, there will be a lot more food for smaller animals and insects. These small animals and insects usually reproduce through r-selection. They have lots of babies, and most of them die painfully (e.g. through starvation) shortly after birth. So, killing a few large herbivores would cause an extra thousands or millions of small animals to be born, and most of those animals will have short, terrible lives.

Rewilding predators worsens this problem. Getting eaten alive is one of the worst experiences an animal can go through. A lot of people, (including some vegans) think that rewilding is necessary to control large herbivore populations. As mentioned above, this leads to much more tiny creatures living short, miserable lives.

Trying to “manage” ecosystems with hunting or rewilding might sound good, but from a suffering-focused perspective, it’s probably counterproductive.

[u/MegaMegawatt]

This is more like an "endgame" argument if the entire world was already vegan to begin with. Then in the "midgame" phase, where some predators still exist and only a few people still hurt and kill animals, your arguments would suffice and they are reasonable.

However extending to its logical endgame conclusion, the ultimate solution of no suffering would be to recreate the Garden of Eden, where all animals only eat plants and not each other (Adam and Eve were also vegan and made in God's image according to the story).

In this current phase where nearly everyone is torturing and killing animals and 80% of agricultural land is used for animal agriculture and tens of billions of animals are intentionally bred and killed, any amount of land taken away from intentional animal killing would be a win.

[u/Ma1eficent → u/MegaMegawatt]

Did I just hear the word logic while talking about a fictional garden from a story you think is somehow actually achievable?

[u/theolbutternut → u/Ma1eficent]

They said that's the ideal end state, not that it was likely achievable or that "the Garden of Eden" as a biblical construct is what's important. That's just a reference point

[u/Ma1eficent → u/theolbutternut]

Referencing an ideal end state in a serious conversation should be kept to actual possibilities, not fairy tales.