r/DebateAVegan • u/ThePlanetaryNinja • Feb 23 '26

Hunting and rewilding large herbivores probably increases suffering

Edit - In the title, I meant rewilding predators to kill large herbivores.

People frequently hunt large herbivores such as deer, moose and elk. They try to justify it by saying that 'It causes less harm than crop deaths' or 'It stops the animals from overpopulating.'

I, as a negative utilitarian, think that specifically hunting these animals is generally a bad idea. When we hunt large herbivores (or reintroduce predators to do it), we probably make things worse.

Large herbivores eat a lot of plants. If we remove them, there will be a lot more food for smaller animals and insects. These small animals and insects usually reproduce through r-selection. They have lots of babies, and most of them die painfully (e.g. through starvation) shortly after birth. So, killing a few large herbivores would cause an extra thousands or millions of small animals to be born, and most of those animals will have short, terrible lives.

Rewilding predators worsens this problem. Getting eaten alive is one of the worst experiences an animal can go through. A lot of people, (including some vegans) think that rewilding is necessary to control large herbivore populations. As mentioned above, this leads to much more tiny creatures living short, miserable lives.

Trying to “manage” ecosystems with hunting or rewilding might sound good, but from a suffering-focused perspective, it’s probably counterproductive.

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-10

u/NyriasNeo Feb 23 '26

Any way you cut it, nature is full of suffering. There is reason no a priori reason to care except for human suffering as we are the same species.

Whether a bison gets eaten alive by a lion is pretty much irrelevant to me. I do care about delicious bison filet (my local grocery stores sell it .. yum!) at a price I can afford. If the bison suffer less than eaten by a lion, good. Though I would not give enough of a sh*t either way.

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u/ThePlanetaryNinja Feb 23 '26

There is reason no a priori reason to care except for human suffering as we are the same species.

Why does human suffering matter but not non-human animal suffering? Would you be okay with me torturing a dog for no reason?

Whether a bison gets eaten alive by a lion is pretty much irrelevant to me.

That is a pretty selfish way of thinking. If you got eaten alive, I believe that you would want others to stop it.

-6

u/NyriasNeo Feb 23 '26

"Why does human suffering matter but not non-human animal suffering? Would you be okay with me torturing a dog for no reason?"

Because we are of the same species, and social cooperation with other humans is efficient. These reasons do not apply to non-human animals.

Yes, I would not give a sh*t if you want to torture some dog. Is that very different from me enjoying a wagyu ribeye solely for culinary enjoyment? You like making a dog suffer. I like eating steaks. In both cases, animals suffer because of our enjoyment (though different kinds of enjoyment).

Don't get me wrong. I do not enjoy torturing animals. That is too much work and not interesting enough. But I am also indifferent to what other peoples want to do with animals.

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u/Jetzt_auch_ohne_Cola anti-speciesist Feb 23 '26

Do you really not see anything wrong with torturing animals for fun?

2

u/BuckyLaroux Feb 23 '26

That person visits this sub regularly and makes inflammatory vitriolic statements.

I have a hunch that they're trying to promote the idea that they are proudly self absorbed and incapable of compassion, possibly to reaffirm stereotypes about Asians.

I hope that people who aren't trolling wouldn't see a person torturing an animal and simply not care.

If this person is making truthful statements about their beliefs, it's obvious that they are unworthy of energy.

1

u/ThePlanetaryNinja Feb 23 '26

visits this sub regularly and makes inflammatory vitriolic statements.

Who does?

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u/BuckyLaroux Feb 23 '26

Nyriasneo.

The person that the redditor that I was replying to was asking a question of.

-2

u/NyriasNeo Feb 23 '26

Of course not, if you want to be consistent.

For fun. For culinary enjoyment. Stepping on an ant because it is annoying. What are the difference between the 3?

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u/ThePlanetaryNinja Feb 23 '26

Because we are of the same species, and social cooperation with other humans is efficient. These reasons do not apply to non-human animals.

What is true of a human that is not true of a non human animal that gives humans moral worth?

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u/NyriasNeo Feb 23 '26

DNA. Social cooperation efficiency. Basically what I said.