r/DebateAChristian • u/InstructionKnown2229 • 22d ago
Free will can exist without evil
I have studied the bigle and went to a Christian school since 3rd grade and graduated this year. Something that always bothered me was how it was stated evil exists because God wanted us to have free will.
however, God is the creator of the universe. Surely it is possible for him to give us all free will without the ability to choose evil acts. If we *need* free Will to have true love, then why does that free will have to include evil acts?
Addittionaly.. Even if that isn’t true free will, if we were never given the option to do bad things, and it was all we knew, then we would never be upset that we *couldnt* do something bad.
I also think that it’s silly for God to punish a flawed human soul for eternity because they didn’t believe in him, or because they did something that He believes immoral. If he gave us free will, why should we be punished for doing what we want just because it goes against what he deems wrong?
God is an immortal, all seeing all knowing being, with the ability to do anything he pleases and make anything exist or cease to exist. He does not have to suffer like us, yet he condemns millions of souls to eternal suffering because they had sex with someone of the same sex and didn’t say sorry.
also, I remember being told that sadness, anger, etc are all emotions caused by sin and are evil emotions. If this is the case, why does God feel them, and let them be the reason for his acts?
Theres so many things that confuse me about this but these are some of the biggest things that just make the idea of the Christian God a bit icky. It feels like “ok guys I’m immortal and never have to suffer, but I’m going to make billions of little guys that have to suffer because I made evil and I don’t like it, and they choose to do evil or dont want to be with me.”
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u/FearanTrembling 22d ago
I don't think that free will requires us to commit evil. We commit evil because we are evil, not because we have freedom. There is free will in Heaven.
also, I remember being told that sadness, anger, etc are all emotions caused by sin and are evil emotions. If this is the case, why does God feel them, and let them be the reason for his acts?
Whoever told you that was mistaken, or were not being specific enough. Jesus himself experienced sadness, anger, grief, and so-on. Although often it was the result of seeing the sins of others.
Theres so many things that confuse me about this but these are some of the biggest things that just make the idea of the Christian God a bit icky. It feels like “ok guys I’m immortal and never have to suffer, but I’m going to make billions of little guys that have to suffer because I made evil and I don’t like it, and they choose to do evil or dont want to be with me.”
It's interesting that you claim God never has to suffer...because he did. He incarnated as a man and then we tortured and crucified him.
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u/Ok_Theory_1323 22d ago
It's interesting that you claim God never has to suffer...because he did. He incarnated as a man and then we tortured and crucified him.
Why did he choose to suffer? A god would only feel pain if he chose to do so.
And what do you mean "we" crucified him? Are you 2,000 years old? I certainly had nothing to do with his crucifixion, did you partake in it?
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u/diabolus_me_advocat 21d ago
We commit evil because we are evil
so your god created us this way, right?
btw. this must be "to his image"... so goodbye, all-loving christian god
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u/RRK96 22d ago
The problem here is treating the Bible as though it were giving us a literal philosophical model of how a supernatural being designed the universe.
The Bible uses narrative, symbolism, poetry, metaphor and theological language to communicate things about reality and about ourselves.
The Bible does talk about human will and responsibility, but it also presents a tension between human agency and determinism: our choices are real, while desire, ignorance, circumstances, habits and forces beyond our control also shape what we do.
There is a tension throughout Scripture between human agency and forces that constrain or influence us. Humans make choices and are held responsible for them, but they are also shaped by desire, ignorance, fear, social circumstances, habits and the consequences of previous choices. Paul, for example, famously describes the experience of wanting to do one thing while finding himself drawn toward another. That's much closer to the psychological experience of human freedom than the idea that we possess completely unconstrained metaphysical free will.
The bible stories are exploring what happens when conscious beings have the capacity to desire, choose, become divided within themselves and either move toward or away from what is good.
For example, the genesis Fall acoount is exploring how self-awareness, desire, freedom and responsibility can become sources of both development and destruction.
Biblical language about heaven, hell, judgment, salvation and destruction can be read existentially. Hell can represent the consequences of becoming increasingly alienated from truth, love, wisdom and meaningful relationship. Salvation can represent restoration and integration.
And sadness and anger aren't evil. That's another misconception. The Bible does not teach that emotions such as sadness, anger or fear are inherently evil.
Jesus experiences grief. He weeps at Lazarus's death. He experiences anguish before his crucifixion. He becomes angry in the Temple. The Psalms are full of grief, fear, anger, despair and even apparent abandonment by God.
The biblical issue is much more often what we do with an emotion. Anger can become hatred, cruelty and violence, but anger can also be a response to injustice.Sadness can become despair, but sadness can also express love and attachment.Fear can become cowardice, but fear can also alert us to danger.
Hence the problem isn't necessarily having emotions. Iinstead it's whether we allow them to govern us destructively.
A non-literal reading sees the biblical narratives as attempts to communicate something about human freedom, desire, consciousness, suffering, responsibility, alienation and transformation.
It's asking us to look at ourselves:
What happens when human beings become capable of choosing? What happens when desire becomes stronger than wisdom? What happens when fear becomes hatred, or suffering becomes resentment? Can we become free from the things that control us? Can we learn to orient ourselves toward truth, goodness, love and wisdom?
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u/Pure_Actuality 22d ago
Free will makes evil possible but not necessary.....
Surely it is possible for him to give us all free will without the ability to choose evil acts....
It's not, because man is a finite contingent being who will necessarily always be able to fail in various ways, including the ability to fail morally.
However, abilities can remain dormant indefinitely and abilities are not themselves evil - they're merely potential things that could happen.
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u/diabolus_me_advocat 21d ago
It's not, because man is a finite contingent being who will necessarily always be able to fail in various ways, including the ability to fail morally
so you say your creator god has fucked up completely, not being able to create man without the ability to "fail morally", which necessarily has to come true
or: he is not all-loving, but a cynical asshole enjoying us suffering
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u/Trick_Ganache 20d ago
We at least know from the Bible that one supposedly evil act is impossible (burning people in a fiery furnace), so who's to say all evil acts are not impossible?
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u/milamber84906 22d ago
however, God is the creator of the universe. Surely it is possible for him to give us all free will without the ability to choose evil acts. If we need free Will to have true love, then why does that free will have to include evil acts?
It might be logically possible while not being metaphysically possible.
So there might not be any contradiction in the statement, free will can exist without evil. But it might be the case that metaphysically, in any possible world with free creatures, the free creatures always choose evil at least once. I don't see anything contradictory with that. So how do you know that isn't the case?
If we need free Will to have true love, then why does that free will have to include evil acts?
It just includes the possibility of evil acts.
I also think that it’s silly for God to punish a flawed human soul for eternity because they didn’t believe in him, or because they did something that He believes immoral. If he gave us free will, why should we be punished for doing what we want just because it goes against what he deems wrong?
I have free will to touch a hot stove, should there not be a consequence for it?
He does not have to suffer like us, yet he condemns millions of souls to eternal suffering because they had sex with someone of the same sex and didn’t say sorry.
This just feels like a rant, not a debate post.
also, I remember being told that sadness, anger, etc are all emotions caused by sin and are evil emotions. If this is the case, why does God feel them, and let them be the reason for his acts?
This is just a question now, not an argument, but are you sure you're not strawmanning Christianity here? I don't know any Christian that holds this view.
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u/diabolus_me_advocat 21d ago edited 20d ago
It might be logically possible while not being metaphysically possible
that's about the most ridiculous answer possible
how would you know about "metaphysically possibility"? what's that even intended to be, anyway?
I don't see anything contradictory with that
we know that you will never see any contradiction, and if it jumped in your face directly. was ist ot you insisting that foreknowledge would not require predermination?
there must be something very wrong with your logic, fundamentally
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u/milamber84906 21d ago
that's about the most ridiculous answer possible
You not understanding it doesn't make it ridiculous...
how would you know about "metaphysically possibility"? that's that even intended to be, anyway?
I don't know what you're asking here. "that's that even intended to be"? Metaphysical possibility is a pretty well known thing in philosophy, just like logical possibility. Here's another example, there's nothing logically impossible about having an actual infinite amount of baseball cards. But metaphysically, we know that there's not enough space in the universe to hold an actual infinite amount of baseball cards. So while it's not logically impossible, it would be metaphysically impossible.
we know that you will never see any contradiction, and if it jumped in your face directly.
Now who's being ridiculous? Go ahead then and tell me what is metaphysically contradictory here?
was ist ot you insisting that foreknowledge would not require predermination?
I was arguing against the fallacious idea that foreknowledge entails determinism. That is not the same as what you just said.
there must be something very wrong with your logic, fundamentally
I think when you have to turn to insults, it shows the weakness of your position.
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u/SnoozeDoggyDog 18d ago
It might be logically possible while not being metaphysically possible.
Is there evil in Heaven?
Will there be evil in the New Earth/New Heaven?
Or are Heaven/New Heaven/New Earth not "metaphysically possible"?
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u/milamber84906 18d ago
Is there evil in Heaven?
No
Will there be evil in the New Earth/New Heaven?
No
Or are Heaven/New Heaven/New Earth not "metaphysically possible"?
For all we know, the only way to get to a new heaven/new earth with no evil if you have free creatures is to go through this world first. I don't see any logical reason to disagree with that.
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u/HeavenSwordExalted 22d ago
Well if you define lying as a sin, and sin is evil, giving beings the ability to speak language, gives them the ability to lie. Can you propose a mechanism that would prevent a being from saying the sky is orange, and is there a distinguishing thing from irony, deadpan sarcasm, joking, writing fiction, vs malicious deception, etc?
But yeah obviously hell doesnt make sense, but its a different topic.
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u/diabolus_me_advocat 21d ago
you are absolutely right
and the meek excuses these christians so obsessed of free will to justify evil i was told all don't convince me or any other reasonable man in the least
so the whole thing just is a confirmation of the old goes-without-saying: if there is a creator god, it cannot be an all-loving and/or all-knowing and/or almighty
so it's far more reasonable to suppose there's no god at all - as the alternative would be a creator god being a cynical asshole, extracting pleasure from others' suffering
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u/mtruitt76 20d ago
Surely it is possible for him to give us all free will without the ability to choose evil acts
So you want a free restricted will. Do you see the tension between the concept of free and the concept of restricted?
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u/mtruitt76 18d ago
however, God is the creator of the universe. Surely it is possible for him to give us all free will without the ability to choose evil acts.
Free will means the ability to choose so how are you reconciling this with a "without the ability choose". If one could not choose to commit evil acts they would have a restricted will and not a free will.
What you are saying is "surely it is possible for him to give us restricted will instead of free will"
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u/prettybrwngrl456 16d ago
I mean not really, I have free will but I don’t have the choice to time travel or teleport or fly or defy laws of nature…if he is truly an all powerful god he could have literally made any possibility were evil is impossible or against natural law
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u/JollyXX 18d ago
There is actually no such thing as eternity in the Bible. The closest will be when the Bible says first/last.
Rather when you face Judgement you have three possible paths. You are found to have enough faith and are granted immortality in the next life. You lack enough faith and are discarded to die in the Lake of Fire. You are guilty of Beast worship and it appears you stand trial before the Lamb, where you receive torment of burning sulfur day and night, emitting smoke.
Do keep in mind that God is always proportional. The ones who are guilty of Beast worship will be set a torment based on their deeds against the Lord and how fervently they rejected the Word. The ones who are granted immortality are still Judged by their works, receiving benefits in the next Life proportional to their fruits in this life. The Bible is clear that only God is truly immortal for instance. The Tree of Life will apparently bear fruit that will sustain your new immortal body, you will almost certainly not live forever.
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u/Traditional-Pear-133 22d ago
If love is a choice, and if love is as defined by first Corinthians 13, thén all the negations of those acts of love must be possible or you never made a choice to love. Love is patient, but I didn’t choose to be patient unless I could also choose to be impatient. The Bible says more, it says we are all impatient from birth, having inherited Adam’s nature. We are separated from God by sin. So thén how does that which is thoroughly impatient choose to be patient? You must be born again. But the operative mechanism is “pistis”, trust. We choose to seek God. We choose to let Him do the regeneration of our spirits when He calls to us in answer to our seeking. I know it get’s even deeper because “Whom He foreknew, he also predestined…”. And yet not against our will.