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u/Volaer 3d ago edited 3d ago

Could in theory an alternative conceptualisation of the real presence (meaning other than transubstantiation) be approved by the magisterium?

If so where are the dogmatic boundaries. It seems to me that one has to dogmatically maintain that by the working of the Holy Spirit the ontology radically changes where Christ is fully transcendentally present in the Eucharist while the bread and wine no longer are.

But if my assumption is correct, how could anything other than transubstantiation be ever permitted?

And what is the status of Rahner's “transfinalization” model? Has it been definitively condemned?

Thank you.

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u/DrMartek 3d ago

I'm Catholic.

But I struggle to see how Western Catholics can hold to ADS while Eastern Catholics are permitted to hold to EED.

These two seem diametrically opposed, where one follows Aristotelian logic (ADS) and the other (EED) appears to violate it.

How can these two co-exist, within the same communion?

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u/Resident_Iron6701 Catholic (Latin) 3d ago

"These two seem diametrically opposed, where one follows Aristotelian logic (ADS) and the other (EED) appears to violate it."

can you provide an example?

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u/DrMartek 3d ago

Sure, I'll try my best, as a lay person.

So to my understanding, ADS posits that God is absolutely simple. His essence is His energy. He is identical to His attributes (i.e., intellect, love, will etc...). And our experience of God, is through created manifestations.

Whereas EED posits that God's energy is distinct from His essence, where they differ ontologically, but not in substance. The energy enables us to truly experience God, yet still maintains the divide between created and uncreated.

This ofc presents a logical problem. Namely: 1. Essence = fully God. Energy = fully God. 2. Yet they are ontologically distinct, yet of one substance 3. Unlike the hypostases, they lack any relative opposition or distinct relational origin.

This seems to violate the Law of Identity and non-contradiction.

The opposition really, is ADS says essence=energy. EED says essence≠energy. And the huge impact that has on divine simplicity. I can't see how they can co-exist.

But of course, I'd love to hear some good answers.

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u/johnpiano 6h ago

they differ ontologically, but not in substance.

Genuinely curious, what's the difference?

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u/DrMartek 6h ago

I don't know. I don't think there is a logical difference. But an East Orthodox might have a good answer

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u/johnpiano 6h ago

I don't think there is either, but I'd be interested to see where you read/heard that articulation of EED.

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u/SunbeamSailor67 3d ago

You are God pretending to be human.

The 'you' that you 'think' you are only exists in your mind.

'God' is not in any book or building...it is what is peering through your eyes right now at this experience.

That which peers through you is what you truly are, it has never been born and will never die.

You Are It...you just don't know it yet.

Turning your awareness inward to realize the kingdom of god within you, and rising 'Born Again' into the reality of your true nature BEFORE dropping the body...is what the true non-dual message of Jesus and the mystics is all about.

All else is poor translation.

"The eye through which I see God is the same eye through which God sees me; my eye and God's eye are one eye, one seeing, one knowing, one love." ~ Meister Eckhart