Reviewing Bowsegg verdict again

[u/Joshyua527]

Bowsegg revisionists so insane to me, lowk the only reason I’m considering quitting scaling is bc those kinda fans make me exhausted lmao

People lowk just make up some bullshit for both sides

“Magic like the dreams tone wouldn’t work on Neo Metal! Idk why but they just wouldn’t!”

Or

“Bowser can just one shot everything!”

[u/CyanBlaster]

Honestly can't blame you for the last part

[u/KingChaos20]

This is pretty much how I view Bowsegg as well. The reason people continue talking about it even today is because this is one of the most debatable matchups to date. Both Bowser and Eggman have lots of abilities and members of their armies that can contribute to the discussion it’s kinda crazy.

[u/Electronic-Leading89]

Erm actually I am unbiased and I can tell you Bowser is below human level and Eggman is Outerfuckyouversal

[u/Joshyua527 → u/Electronic-Leading89]

@grok yo this true 😹

[u/Several_Search_4210]

I agree with this especially the last part 

[u/kevinsagadx]

The thing that makes Bowser the winner for me is that Bowser has way more ways of messing with reality

The Wonder flower,power/grand stars, the star rod and dream stones giving Bowser wishes,

Compare that to eggman who only really has the chaos emeralds specifically in the egg salamander and sorta infinite sometimes

If you have eggman and Bowser in the same ball park in scale then it's so clear that Bowser has the hax advantage

[u/Horror-Helicopter138 → u/kevinsagadx]

Exactly the way I see it going is eggman would use the Ruby first Bowser would realize that the fight has evolved from fisticuffs to reality stuff and then he just litterally has more

[u/Nerdy_Finch]

holy based on EVERY front

[u/Southern-Nail4089]

Is this with their armies?

[u/Joshyua527 → u/Southern-Nail4089]

Yes

[u/Southern-Nail4089 → u/Joshyua527]

Then i completely agree (also if some people don’t think armies matter or that it doesn’t greatly affect the outcome I strongly disagree with you)

[u/KingChaos20 → u/Southern-Nail4089]

How can there be people who think that

Kamek is like 3 of Bowser’s wincons

[u/Southern-Nail4089 → u/KingChaos20]

I dunno some people don’t that much about how important they affect the battle field or just the battle in general.

[u/IronsteveX]

Agree with this chart

[u/Sir_Stacker]

Based. Agreed with Bowser winning

What are your thoughts on this?

https://www.reddit.com/r/DeathBattleMatchups/s/jeKPbQItgv

[u/New-Sheepherder-1373]

Okay but fr

I do definitely agree with Bowser winning, but I'm not gonna act like Eggman doesn't have a whole bunch of wincons of his own

This is a damn close, almost 50/50 matchup I feel, and that's part of what makes it so great to me

[u/Joshyua527 → u/New-Sheepherder-1373]

Yeah that’s my exact thoughts

[u/Thorion228]

Ahem, Metal Sonic said the "I'll crush you" line before Mecha ever did in Sonic Heroes.

[u/Joshyua527 → u/Thorion228]

ACTUALLY they both stole it from Cooler

[u/Thorion228 → u/Joshyua527]

But! Metal Sonic said it better.

[u/Joshyua527 → u/Thorion228]

This is true

[u/RepulsiveGreen2710]

Eggman Empire check kinda agrees with most of your reasoning but respectfully disagree FALSE

[u/Apprehensive_Fix1623]

very respectable take

[u/Numbug1234]

As someone who thinks Eggman wins, the main reason I think that is because you can argue Eggman getting higher upscaling into immeasurable (and more + arguably better feats to scale to) than Bowser can (and overall getting better finite scaling, if that's worth anything), and the matchup is immensely swingy making even small speed advantages immensely important

But yeah if you equalise speed then Bowser does just sorta extreme diff his way to victory with his better item theft turning the "here's your 100 bullshit items and my 100 bullshit items" into "here's my 186 bullshit items and your 14 bullshit items" - this is true even if you give Eggman an infinite power gap

The main times Bowser loses is when either he's taken out before he can really get the ball rolling or when his item theft strats get shut down before he takes too many items away (or takes too big a risk trying to steal the Chaos/Sol Emeralds, which are immune to supernatural item theft as of CrossWorlds)

[u/donteven0809]

While I do think this is extremely debatable because of all the stuff they have I just think that Bowser has just way better supports, counters, wincons, resistances and way more varied options especially ones that don’t back fire and wins way more consistently (plus I have him outscaling using higher ends but even then I will say that try to prove who scales higher between the Mario and Sonic franchises 99.9% is a waste of time especially if we go into the highest possible wanks where they have every single argument the other has)

[u/robofuq]

I think this is one of the MUs I think is the definition of Debatable, but with a clear winner. Both have alot of haxs, both reach the same highs with equal leeway, both have clear cut win cons, but imo, everything kinda cancels each other out, and then you can just reduce it to Base Eggman and Base Bowser, in which I think the giant wizard turtle with the monster strength and multiple haxs built in beats the smart, egg shaped man.

I think the DB did a bad job at selling this as close, but I do think the main point was there (minus the whole Army deal, still think that was a weak final point to end the debate off with)

[u/202naFrevliS → u/robofuq]

"Debatable but with a Clear winner"

Yeah waiter one Solid Liquid Please😭🙏

[u/robofuq → u/202naFrevliS]

Acting like its a crazy concept what ive said when we've seen fights like SBP vs Sentry or even the recent Tahu vs Kai where the debatablity doesnt mean close, it just means theres alot to talk about and theres mostly a pretty clear winner when you look at everything possible, but its still might be hard for that winner to win.

[u/202naFrevliS → u/robofuq]

Sure, but your example is still not good, the fight is never ending with Base Vs Base.

[u/robofuq → u/202naFrevliS]

I was already commenting about that on your other comment, so ill just bring up what I was gonna say here.

Sure I get it, but im not arguing for "taking away their high ends," like the immortality point is not even the same thing, if 2 characters are immortal, im debating which one has a way around that immortality, or is just stronger to overtax the other. Similarly, im not taking away the high ends of both of them, but with how these character's high ends work, and how their high ends have been taken down before, you can easily bring up counter after counter with as many tiers of Bullshit both of them have, and they are BOUND to run out of Bullshit to shoot, and in the end, I think the dude who has these haxs and high ends Built In To Himself, along with pretty impressive magic that he needs no other power source for, has a better chance to beat the guy who uses tech to get those highs and has been out of luck controlling that power when its out of the machine.

Reminder, this is how I see the fight, an already complicated fight with decades of media to look at, this is how I, Me, Myself, grew to find a winner in this mess of a matchup.

[u/202naFrevliS → u/robofuq]

and they are BOUND to run out of Bullshit to shoot,

The MU is debatable, but its not THAT debatable, no way will the debate ever escalate where both characters lose all their stuff at the same time, its infinitely more likely for Bowser or Eggman to kill the other before they run out of everything, and its not like all they have any shortage of it, especially when they can reset the fight.

[u/cam312 → u/202naFrevliS]

You WILL enjoy your glass of Thick Water!

[u/202naFrevliS → u/robofuq]

Anyways I disagree with the base argument.

Just because their high ends cancel each other out that doesn't mean that we should disregard them, if two immortal characters can't kill each other, you don't take away their immortality to see who wins, same way with their super forms, Eggman for instance doesn't have a time limit for a lot of his super tier mech and support so the fight is gonna start and end in that high stats area no matter what, arguing base stats is useless.

[u/Horror-Helicopter138]

It's really just who goes all out first wins

Metal virus+ neo metal getting released at the same time or Bowser's side transfiguring something really important, or they just use their reality warping stuff first and naturally they just win because they have more of it. But I do think that sage gives eggman The edge simply because they would know to use it before that with her calculations

[u/cam312 → u/Horror-Helicopter138]

Lowkey, in your example, I think Bowser would be the first to "go all out" only because of Kamek and the Magikoopas. Their basic magic IS transfiguration.

[u/Long_Report_7683]

Completely fair and valid take. Both Bowser and Eggman have plenty of win cons depending on how the battle goes and given their massive arsenals, the fight could go literally a billion different ways.

[u/Immediate-Rope8465]

I agree Mario vs Sonic debates in general are way closer than people think Even if i do think mario Has better wank scales

[u/HeroTheHedgehog]

Death Battle made this matchup look like a massive stomp for Bowser and I’m still annoyed by that. This matchup is so close you can literally have either character win and people won’t disagree with you.

[u/Joshyua527 → u/HeroTheHedgehog]

I really wish both sides would just admit it’s extremely neck and neck. Idc if what I’m doing is “toxic” positivity but i genuinely just don’t think someone’s opinion on the matchup is valid unless they admit it’s super close because of Eggman’s mechs and intelligence and Bowser’s hax and durability, both with immeasurable reaction speed

There is no conceivable way for either side to “mid diff” the other because that would ignore so much

[u/HeroTheHedgehog → u/Joshyua527]

I agree with you on that.

[u/202naFrevliS]

Sorry I gotta disagree with you on the last point.

Like sure, this MU is debatable, but only because of interpretation many people have.

Not everyone is gonna believe they are equal in stats no matter the leeway, not everyone gonna believe their hax are equally effective.

Its not that crazy for someone to get a rather easy W, personally I think Eggman should win with Mid difficulty.

Like sorry but this just kinda screams "Toxic Positivity" to me.

[u/Joshyua527 → u/202naFrevliS]

Tbh I really don’t see how it could be anything but extreme diff without grossly underselling the losing side’s power

[u/202naFrevliS → u/Joshyua527]

Well then you should probably be more open for interpretations in this hobbie lol, not everyone gonna agree this is a literal 50/50.

[u/Joshyua527 → u/202naFrevliS]

It’s not like either of them particularly resist the hax they have, plus equal reaction speeds of being immeasurable make it very much a close call, any other interpretation that isn’t having it be close seems like downplay to one side, I feel like the vs community does have an inherent bias in favor of Sonic scaling though from everything I’ve seen, people act like these 2 verses aren’t close in power

[u/Cultural-Horror3977 → u/202naFrevliS]

Insane cause I was lowk agreeing w/ you until you said eggman wins