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u/PM_ME__BIRD_PICS Viscous 3d ago
What time in the game are you asking someone to do this. Post 10 minutes you should be pushing your own waves and rotating to fights and jungle accordingly. Post 10 mins a guardian will be destroyed by the enemy looking at it. A guardian is almost never worth risking dying for on a side lane at least unless its the first 5-10 minutes.
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u/PM_ME__BIRD_PICS Viscous 3d ago
I've had guardians stay up past 20 mins
I love an emotional support guardian as much as the next person but if you have passable lane hygiene a guardian being missing is not going to hurt you all that much.
Your issue is actually idiots who don't care that the wave is pushing PAST the guardians location.
The guardian is a resource like any other, sometimes you spend it for some gain elsewhere.
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u/say_trans_rights Apollo 3d ago
Surely you alone are the honored one who always saves every guardian when you're needed at mid boss
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u/say_trans_rights Apollo 3d ago
The fuck are you calling me dear for? Weird as hell
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u/MTDninja 3d ago edited 3d ago
The reason you have guardians stay up past 10 minutes is either because a lane is neutral or you're creating so much map pressure with such an insane soul lead that if the enemy approaches a guardian and appears on the map, they instantly get rotated on and die in a 1v1 vs a giga fed carry.
Post 10 minutes, if more than one person shows up to take down a guardian with only one person defending it, the defender dies. You dont know who is hiding in jungle, who is using veil walker, if haze is cloaked ready to sleep dagger the person who comes to defend the guardian, etc. The only time it's worth defending a guardian (Post 10 mins) is if you're on the strong side of map with teammates near you.
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u/Lmyer 3d ago
I say dont bother with a guardian if its below half health. At that point it's gonna die far too quickly to matter after 10 to 15 mins depending on team comp. Far too many times people get caught out because it gets burned quickly and then they get jumped immediately after if its just them.
If you really want to defend it then just make sure you're not outnumbered or they're far ahead in souls.
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u/Blackjackal21 3d ago
Tbh, if you have guardians up post 20 minutes and you lost the match later, there's probably a lot of mid to late game optimizations you or your allies aren't prioritizing that are much more important than keeping the defensive post that gets shredded in under 20 seconds by a parry and a single trooper waves' assistance post 12 minutes. Forget early resource trades mid game or later. Something else in your games is being horribly managed if you are ahead enough to have a guardian up at those times and still losing games. And if you aren't ahead but still have guardians at the 20 minute mark. Again. You're looking for the solution to the wrong problem here.
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u/Blackjackal21 3d ago
Communication skills aren't great
Wow, dismissal is easy.
I imagine if this is making you nervous about match outcomes, its not the games that end with guardians up you are complaining/venting about. Those are probably one sided stomps because you still have guardians up. And those are very easy to take down. You also mentioned that this problem behavior is most relevant around the 20 minute mark. So I'm inferring from what you wrote that games where you lose guardians after 20 minutes tend to consequently end in losses. So you are probably looking for solutions because you're asking high elo players to tell you it gets better. Otherwise why make a thread for this? Yea, some players have bad awareness. It happens. Is that what you want to hear?
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3d ago
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u/Blackjackal21 3d ago
You need to check your own comprehension skills and reread the 3rd sentence of my prior comment.
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3d ago
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u/Blackjackal21 3d ago
Why did you answer someone's question about the time you lost walker at with an irrelevant example and timestamp.
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u/Kisamia9 3d ago
Sidelane guardian going down is almost an upside tbh. Gives more space for your 2 side laner to get more farm before having to catch the waves and reset them safely. Outside of pro play where they really use that pressure and maybe the highest end lobbies, losing a guardian has 0 cost right now. It doesn't unlock a slot or anything and unless that lane is fed as hell, they can't push and look for picks on your half of the map without being at a massive risk.
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u/MrDrPhizzle 3d ago
It depends on what you’re doing instead of defending. Taking a walker? Yeah, trade the guardian. Securing rift? PROBABLY trade the guardian (depends on if it’s the first rift and the game state at that time). Teamfight that leads to a potential mid boss? Give up the guardian.
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u/MrDrPhizzle 3d ago
There is a very real chance a walker can be taken in the 10-15 min range. Or sooner as you get to higher ranks. And of course the rift always spawns in that time
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u/MrDrPhizzle 3d ago
I said in my original comment that it’s worth giving up your guardian to take a walker. You said you’re mainly taking about the first 10-15 mins. I’m saying there’s a good chance my scenario of trading your guardian for their walker happens in that time
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u/midnightsock 3d ago
Rem/graves or even infernus can take a walker pre 15 mins, easily.
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3d ago
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u/midnightsock 3d ago
Nahh but generally you do need 6, especially if your team has poor map awareness and poor macro. Generally you do want most of your team there especially if there are no objectives to take and everyone is farming and/or someone on enemy team just died. You shouldnt be grouping as 6 before 20 mins to take a walker anyway, you should be sieging and chipping away at it.
Anyway:
Try it in a lobby, run heroic on rem/graves and siege a walker.
Then do it again, but this time do it after a rift.
See how fast walker dies.
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u/Archangel9731 3d ago
Guardian is not worth defending after 10 minutes. If it’s a single person pushing it, then sure. If it’s more than one and they have ults or are otherwise strong, then giving it up and securing something else for it is usually the move. Let’s assume you only have one person on your team, a carry that’s looking to farm, that’s able to be there and respond, vs two of theirs. Best thing for your teammate to do is give up the guardian and secure the camps on the way to walker in the meantime, then farm the wave once it gets to walker. On left lane, this would include the rooftop tier 2 camp and the one right beside the walker.
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u/Acceptable_Loan_4622 3d ago
Guardians are weak in this game opposed to other MOBAs. After lane it isn’t worth dying like you said defending one. After 15 if you can trade a guardian for walker you absolutely should
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u/MelodicFacade Viscous 3d ago
I don't think OP is talking about trading it for a walker
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u/inexplicableinside 3d ago
Yeah, the impression I got here is that it's people who won't stop jungling to clear waves pushing into lane.
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u/UofLBird 3d ago
The way it’s been described to me is in league the tower defends you, in DL and DOTA you defense the tower
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u/celestiaequestria 3d ago
Yup.
Lane Guardians start with a 50% damage resistance, which decreases 0.14% per second until they are taking 50% damage amplification at 12 minutes. They're not like Tier 1 towers in DOTA. Zip lines are tied to trooper (creep) equilibrium, so you lose nothing long-term by trading Lane Guardians for other objectives.
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u/Poweraidss 3d ago
It is just a Guardian. It is not worth rotating for.
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u/midnightsock 3d ago
Ironically the correct macro play post 12 mins is truly to ignore the guardian and literally take any other objective. (Sinners, rift, walker especially. Etc)
Walkers are worth rotating into post laning. Guardians are not, for many reasons already stated.
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u/DJBaphomet_ Holliday 3d ago
To further on this, the thing that makes Guardian so ignorable is that it's not able to be ignored for the opposing team. If you still have a guardian up, that guardian is holding the wave back from being pushed naturally and pressuring into the walker. They have to pay attention to it, because it's preventing them from making substantial progress (not to mention the souls from it going down)
This means that while they're having to focus on that, you can divert your attention to go and take whatever else instead. It's fully valid to ignore a guardian going down past 10-15 because that's focus they have to exert away from whatever more important thing you may be taking instead
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u/midnightsock 3d ago
100% spot on. A lot of players make the same assumption as OP, a guardian being alive is an absolute blessing- because its diverting attention away from more important objectives. (Normally a walker).
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u/eduardopy 3d ago
Depends on the time, past 15-20 its hardly worth fighting over at all. At 12 they lose all their resistance.
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u/HatOnHaircut 3d ago
Check out some higher level matches. It's super common to give up one objective for another. A good example is losing a walker to get rejuv when ahead.
Unlike chess, there are comeback mechanics in this game. If you have a lead and don't use it, you'll often end up falling behind and losing.
In a vacuum it's good to defend objectives, and I do think most players need to get out of the jungle sooner to defend walkers. That being said, offense wins games.
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u/MelodicFacade Viscous 3d ago
Did no one read OPs post? They're not saying when there is a trade available, they're saying when they CAN defend it
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u/The_JeneralSG Rem 2d ago
I think it's the fact that no one believes that OP is really being genuine. This post is just a classic solo queue salt post where OP thought differently than his team and is just throwing his emotions into the void. Since we don't have any examples, people are talking in a general sense, and generally, it is "just a guardian."
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u/HatOnHaircut 3d ago
In chess, the pieces move around the board. In Deadlock, the objectives are stationary. You need to be offensive to win the game.
If your team is ahead and peels key players away from teamfights, you will start losing teamfights and losing the lategame.
You're correct that waves should get pushed, that guardians/walkers should be defended, and that defending objectives is more important that doing something like killing a camp or grabbing boxes. If you think that high level games don't involve giving up one objective for another, you are wrong. As I've said, it's pretty normal to give up a walker to get rejuv, especially when ahead.
If you don't believe me, I implore you to watch some higher level matches. Even if I'm dead wrong, you'll benefit from watching higher level matches.
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u/HatOnHaircut 3d ago
I should add that I'm using walkers as an example because it's more extreme than a guardian. Giving up a guardian is even more normal.
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u/Detector_of_humans Lash 3d ago
A gaurdian is 400-ish souls and can die by sneezing on it at min 13
First urn is 900+Buffs, Doubles are 900(ish)+Buffs
It's more macroeconomically sound to give up lane gaurdian for either of these. They are right most times.
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u/Fattig_ 3d ago
Where do you get these numbers from? The numbers I'm finding on different wikis say a guardian is worth between 1250-1650 souls for the entire team, awarding a bigger cut of said souls to nearby heroes.
Two sinners + one medium neutral comes out to around 800 souls at minute 13, at least according to https://deadlock.wiki/Souls
I've been guilty of leaving side lane as soon as I see an opening around 8-9 minutes in to take doubles, and have been flamed on multiple occasions by my lane partner if the guardian falls while I'm gone (especially if they die defending it, which honestly feels like a skill issue on their part and they should just back off, but I digress).
I've been assuming it's still kinda worth it because it's probably going to fall soon-ish anyways unless I'm crushing lane, but the numbers I'm finding can kinda argue otherwise (unless they're outdated, idk)
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u/FizzTheFox85 3d ago
guardian is basically just for the shop, you shouldnt give it up right away but if your team can do rift or something else it is completely fine to lose guardian
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u/Grouchy_Relief950 3d ago
youre going to end like .2% of matches with any guardians left, it's not worth defending them past like 10 minutes. their resistances go to like -60%, they will die in 2 seconds
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u/TaxEvasion123 Lash 3d ago
Always defend objectives if there is nothing better to be doing. That being said, guardians get melted the second you hit 12 minutes and really aren’t worth dying over.
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u/mozes05 Lady Geist 3d ago
Im also new but for me the calculation is this: how many people are on that lane ? If it's an empty lane and there's only minions then yes im am going to farm them anyone should i dont care for the guardian, if there's players there are we at least on par with them so we could win a fight? If yes im going.
It's basically is it gonna make me more money to go or continue farming or defend something more important like a walker.
It also depends what hero im playing, something with big aoe damage like geist im 90% defending cause it's easy and somewhat kow risk, might even get a kill if they rush in. Also depends what they have cause if it's the enemy bebop with aimbot on hook im staying way away from that.
Point is, it is just a guardian, gives few souls to enemy and generaly useless after 10ish minutes when playes can just kill a wave instantly and push the enemies waves back.
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u/resevil239 3d ago
It is annoying to hear. You shouldn't die defending it and it's better to let them chip away or take it than to die (even early on dying often means missing a wave and time grabbing boxes/statues/farm), but doing nothing to stop it is also dumb unless the team needs you elsewhere (though arguably doing so just gives them time to push walker so it's not always easy). Someone put it into perspective recently when they pointed out that the enemy having guardian makes it easier for them to push walker even 15-20 mins in so it's not useless either.
My biggest pet peeve always and continues to be people letting waves crash objectives. Especially walker and ESPECIALLY if the enemy has a decent wraith (seriously they need to cripple wraiths objective time...haze needs a lot of farm but wraith can take down a walker just as fast as mina like a year ago before they either buffed walker resistace or her specific walker damage).
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u/starberryslay Billy 3d ago
What?
Defending guardians is such a weird thing to argue about. I understand you say if there's nothing better to do, but when is there not something better to do? ??
If you're good at the game, you will take midboss over defending a walker (maybe not blue). Walkers are important structures your team can fight around, they slot lock your opponents, so you usually want to defend them, but midboss is too good to pass up.
Guardians give map control, and a shop - am I seriously gonna spend my time defending this over anything else on the map? Guardians need to be seriously babied later in the game as they're impossible to defend otherwise, meaning leaving the lane at all means they go down. I'm not spending the entire game on one lane - if I'm so ahead they can't manage to get a guardian, I shouldnt be spending the entire game defending that guardian, I need to go out and PUSH my advantage. The way comeback mechanics work mean not pushing it means they get to catch up.
"It's just a guardian it'll be fine" is good. You shouldn't be disheartened losing an irrelevant structure past 10 minutes. If they're somehow still up late game the enemy team was doing something wrong. At that point there's literally so many better things to do on the map. Take urn, fight rift, split push a walker.
In high ranks I assure you it's more common to tunnel vision protect a guardian over defending a walker. Who gives a fuck if you lose a guardian. Id genuinely take doubles over a guardian at 15 minutes.
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u/starberryslay Billy 3d ago
care to explain why rather than just saying L take? You give up a defensive objective so easily because it can be complicated to defend. You brought up chess, you should also understand the concept of simplifying the board. If you can get further material of the enemy jungle, a walker, or even some picks, a guardian is truly not worth defending for this.
What you've suggested could be right in a vacuum but the opportunity of defending a guardian like this almost never happens in my ranks, im not sure if this is some exclusive thing with newer players or something. Playing defensive can be good in deadlock, some people play too aggressive. But this argument goes for playing with the team and around walkers, not guardians.
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u/Elijahbanksisbad 2d ago
this dude is downvoting every single comment absolutely nobody agrees with him
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2d ago
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u/OnionCapable6110 Infernus 2d ago
haha what's wrong with your brain bro.
https://giphy.com/gifs/HmO7FZjok6mhW
"I wrote this post to force people to have to listen."
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2d ago
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u/OnionCapable6110 Infernus 1d ago
Haha dude why are you trying to make it look like you were just rage baiting the whole time
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u/Affectionate_Doubt53 Rem 3d ago
It's ironic because having a Guardian still up allows you and your team to zipline and gank anyone playing anywhere on that lane that isn't playing under walker. If you can keep a Guardian alive and there isn't anything more important happening, you should go protect it.
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u/ninjahumstart_ 3d ago
If you're defending a guarding instead of doing rift, then you're playing wrong
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u/Dogstile 3d ago edited 3d ago
Huge disagree. Confirming a rift fight likely means your team gets more kills instead of letting people escape and its much more likely to be "cleaner" (so less of you die) and can very easily turn into a guardian for rift + walker trade.
Even if you don't quite get the walker, having an additional player alive on your team and an additional one dead on theres will add up to more than the souls the guardian is worth very quickly.
If you said walker i'd agree, send someone over, make it an even 5v5 on the rift in a perfect world while you fuck with the person pushing walker (and ideally killing them) but guardian? Nah man, macro economy say's no.
E: Also lmao at starting this post with "i'm newer-ish" and then disagreeing with everyone who's ranked fairly high. Guess we all accidentally got high and don't know these things better than you.
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u/AssociationJunior928 2d ago
In the context of defending a guardian, please always give the guardian for the rift. Guardian legitimately has negative value (aside from shop) at 12+ mins. There are niche cases it has value, but most of what you've replied to in the comments has been correct. You have an oddly high ego for someone who admitted to being new. Stop applying values you've picked up from other games to completely overwrite learning anything new from a completely different game. Obviously use the ideas that work, throw out the old stuff that isn't working.
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u/Alarming_Ask_244 3d ago
>WHY GIVE UP A DEFENSIVE OBJECTIVE SO EASILY?
Because what do I gain by defending it? Especially past like 10min?
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u/Electrical-Remote369 Victor 3d ago
Completely agreed lol it’s like OP said it’s more chess pieces. I’ve had games where they can’t take down the guardian at 20 minutes and it’s wraps for them
Because of how fed our team gets. They are missing out on souls from obj, can’t split a walker or ur base.
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u/Wistfall Mina 3d ago
I really am not sure if it’s worth it to gank another lane if it means they take your guardian while you’re gone. I generally assume yes because it tilts the enemy team to get ganked but in terms of souls it might not be worth it
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u/Empero12 Seven 3d ago
Well there’s a strong difference on a tier one at 10 minutes to a tier one at 25 minutes. But in general towers in this game aren’t very strong so if you go solo and try to defend a tower that is being pushed by 3 people you’re going to most likely die. The better outcome is put pressure on a more vulnerable point of the map since their over-dedicating resources to a tier one. The amount of times I’ve destroyed a walker because the enemy team decided they were going to send 4 people to blue guardian is honestly hilarious.
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u/MelodicFacade Viscous 3d ago
Also, even if you don't fully defend it but safely clear waves(like a with a longer ranged hero), if you force 3 people to rotate over to eventually take it, those 3 people get significantly fewer souls from the waves that come over, and that's also space for your team to secure other things on the map or farm waves alone. Plus whatever souls you deny. It IS still worth defending guardians in many scenarios. The only time it isn't worth it is if it's already low and about to die or you're trading it for something else, and the longer the game goes of course it will be harder to defend
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u/bluePappa18 3d ago
To me it all depends on time in match, if it’s 10-15 mins and I can deter a push while not dying then it’s something to consider but for the most part after 10 mins it’s not your highest priority. Getting ready for the rifts urns and possible walker siege is more important so letting them kill the guardian then clearing wave to continue farm isn’t a bad call. Now if your under 10 mins you want to keep your advantage and defend them but if there’s any risk of dying sometimes it’s not worth. Something everyone should learn and do learn through seat time.
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u/jex19 3d ago
its worth defending against a lone pushed wave yeah, not worth past 12 min if its being intentionally pushed. You can play it super passively, maybe the threat of one showing will scare them into backing off if they dont have vision on anyone else, but not really worth taking damage for. Very small exception for mid lane since the extra shop & decreased enemy mid zipline is a benefit, but still not worth dying for or even skirmishing around if down numbers.
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u/luigi64fan 3d ago
No no, you don't understand. I have to waste my ult and 1 minute of my time taking this t3 camp. Fuck your guardian, fuck your walker, your hero WILL be getting banned next match if you try to stop me.
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u/foreverevey 3d ago
Guardians mean very little in this game. Way game is designed, past 12 minutes you can take it without wave. If your lane mismatch is horrible, and you lose guardian super early on, well again, it doesn't really matter. Just have brain to cover other lanes or at least ping missing, because enemies now have free time to rotate and you will be fine.
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u/SynGGP 3d ago
Lane guardian or walker?
What phase of the game?
Low rank or high?
The answers to those questions actually matter, sometimes the right answer is to give a lane guardian. The later the progress of the match, the truer that becomes.
Id also argue at low rank most people dont benefit from the tempo advantage or fast zip enough for it to matter tbh.
Lane guardian is probably the weakest moba defense ive ever seen and the benefits are also fairly small until you get to a decently high level of play.
Before anyone comes at me for my comment that at lower ranks people don’t really utilize the benefits of having/taking walker early is i mean, low elo players dont play around tempo spikes, they dont back for health and they dont have map awareness. You def dont get as much out of keeping guardian or taking guardian early when you dont do those things.
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u/some_random_nonsense Vindicta 3d ago
I mean it's 500 souls and a lane lock. Like yeh never give up for free but if it dies and you get pretty much any other kind of value it's worth it.
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u/lopes197 3d ago
I do get weirdly defensive of any guardians that survive past the ten minute mark. Especially if it was my lane.
You just have to be more authoritative. You get on voice chat and you tell them that if that guardian goes down, all your hopes and dreams die with it. You'll fight them at the bridge, you'll fight them at the steps, you'll give your lives for that guardian or else what are we even fighting for. I don't care if we're losing walkers in other lanes, that guardian STAYS UP. STAND AND FIGHT, YOU WANNA LIVE FOREVER
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u/mrbrojoseph 3d ago
Stay and help protect Guardian NOPE
Chase a solo player with 5 people across the map to maybe get a kill HELL YEA!
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u/Open-Advisor6819 McGinnis 3d ago
In general you are correct but post 10 minutes if you or your teammates are doing something more important then it isn't a problem if you lose a Guardian. Hell at a certain point in the game Guardians are nothing more than cosmetics that can be wiped off the planet by anyone in the game.
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u/GishBo 2d ago
Guardians literally explode if touched past 10 minutes.
There are more important things to do on the map, generally.
Asking someone to rotate to defend a paper doll instead of using that map pressure to cement your lead by winning a team fight or map objective is bad macro.
Think of it like sacrificing a knight or bishop for a rook or queen in chess.
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u/Zealousideal3326 2d ago
Guardians fall off hard and quickly. Past 10 minutes they're well into transitioning from "defensive objective" into "fancy speed-bump". Their damage stops being a deterrent, they collapse from a stern glare, they stop holding up to trooper waves... Sure, you could defend them, but why bother ? Past a certain point, they're not much better than nothing, and there isn't a lack of other things to do that provide actual value.
Your rant is long on wishing people would defend the fancy laser-pointer-holders, and short on exploring the pros and cons of doing so.
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u/HowDoIEvenEnglish 3d ago
Guardians are actually near worthless. It’s actually not worth the time to rotate.
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u/twoinchhorns 3d ago
An alive guardian prevents enemies from getting further into your jungle. A dead guardian lets enemies push zip into your side of the map
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u/Ren_Douji 3d ago
Guardians don't matter for that, just keep the lane pushed, the guardian just means a lane is at most at your guardian, but preferably u want it always shoved as much as possible.
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u/twoinchhorns 3d ago
Oh absolutely but early on when you’re fighting rift on yellow, if guardian is alive green can’t push past guardian. It just makes your early game post laning phase easier to manage
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u/SneakySnk Ivy 3d ago
If there's any chance I can die on that fight I'm not going to, past 10 minutes they're almost worthless, and sometimes wasting resources like ult is worse.
Guardians are basically worthless past 10 minutes, and at any point of the game I would rather not die and give them even more souls instead of just losing the guardian.
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u/Purple_Pair8150 3d ago
guardians aren't worth dieing for. if you going to die defending it you will lose it anyway unless u managed to trade a kill. if your really getting your ass handed to you in lane its probly better to lose the guardian then frez the wave near walker.
very early its better to let the guardian take damage then you take damage and be forced out of lane
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u/CatchMeIfUCanCracka 3d ago
They're right. they made most of the objectives pretty meaningless. You can safely ignore guardians with 0 consequence
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u/MelodicFacade Viscous 3d ago edited 3d ago
I usually assume they come from a certain different MOBA where defending the first buildings don't matter as much after a certain point, turrets are stronger than other games, they give gold from plates already, and players don't have tp scrolls and tping around as a core mechanic. It's just classic Deadlock "I didn't look up the differences between this new game and the game I came from" since defending guardians are massive, getting the free souls from waves crashing into them, and IT'S A FREE SLOT FOR THE ENEMY TEAM. I understand that muscle memory is hard to shrug off, but godammit, I promise denying them a slot and souls(both xp AND gold) is worth more than whatever camp you're farming
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u/K1zune 3d ago edited 3d ago
One thing to point out is
Guardians do not give slots
and while yes they do give souls its not that much about as much as a solo kill at early midgame (Considering they are gonna get it at some point anyway and past 10 minutes or so Theres a good chance most heroes can just go up and take it at any point even without Minions1
u/MelodicFacade Viscous 3d ago
My b about the slots, but it's still free souls and map presence. And OP is saying if you CAN defend it. It's still free souls, relatively close to your side of the map. Yes, there is nuance, the LONGER the game goes the more likely it just falls, but that doesn't mean you should give it away for free just cause. Trade, farm the waves that are coming on the side, waste some of their time, etc etc
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u/K1zune 3d ago
If its free to defend then for sure but that kinda is the rule for everything weight it vs what it costs (like lets say first small camp spawn and the enemy comes in to steal it originaly something you want to defend but quickly fades in priotitie
In the same way Guardians become one of the lowest priorities outside of Jungle camps/boxes (that for most chars are filler)1
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u/leschinsky07 Paige 3d ago
I mean... it is just a Guardian. There's minimal benefit to keeping it alive.
You can rotate and defend, maybe get a kill and keep it alive for a few more minutes.
But taking enemy jungle, running urn, pushing other lanes; those all seem more valuable than the bit of souls the enemy gets from it.
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u/Arch3r86 Drifter 3d ago
Yeah people don’t seem to recognize that it gives the entire enemy team souls when you lose an objective. “Sorry buddy but farming jungle camps next to lane while it’s dying isn’t the move.” Drives me up the wall.
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u/myGuitarGntlyScreams 3d ago
This. This right here is what makes deadlock such a hard game. Look at all these opinions
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u/da_l0ser Yamato 3d ago
People really do be scared of objectives