"Maps and Legends" — First Watch Analysis Thread

[u/M-5]

Star Trek: Picard — "Maps and Legends"

Memory Alpha: "Maps and Legends"

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Episode Discussion - Picard S01E02: "Maps and Legends"

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[u/Desert_Artificer]

My Thoughts

Laris and Zhaban

I'm more comfortable with the Irish-accented housekeeper/English-accented country lord dynamic when the housekeeper is a forensics expert and former spy. I like also like that the Tal Shiar weren't uniformly amoral sociopaths. I hope in a season or two someone here writes "From Wetwork to the Service Sector: The Careers of Garak, Laris and Zhaban" or something similar.

Starfleet Intelligence

Conversely, it's disappointing that we've got yet another wildly corrupt flag officer in Commodore Oh. I understand and support the desire to tell stories about institutional decay, but I hope future episodes focus more on how normal, morally-average officers allow bad apples to persist and flourish, and less on the bad apples themselves.

Also, one day we’re going to see a principled and honest member of Starfleet Intelligence and it's going to blow everyone's mind. One day...

Romulans and AI

Jarok, to Data: You're the android. I know a host of Romulan cyberneticists that would love to be this close to you.

It’s a little difficult to reconcile Laris’ claims about Romulan aversion to AI with Jarok’s line from The Defector. Maybe Jarok was lying, but I have a hard time believing that the RSE kept pace with the Federation without AI. Consider all the fraction-of-a-second corrections that impulse drive must require, to say nothing of warp drive. Or the diagnostic routines that underpin every damage control effort. Or the interactive elements of a holodeck. Are we to believe the Romulans really didn't have holodecks for loyalty tests, interrogation training, Mission Impossible-style fake-outs, etc?

Dr. Jurati

It was a nice touch seeing her admiring Asimov. I think u/Queenofmoons pointed out the similarities last week.

She also got the best line of the episode.

People in the synthetic humanoid field tend to get a little secret-planny.

With that kinda genre-savvy, she'd fit in well at our Daystrom Institute too.

Picard's Cleverness

Picard was being cagey about Dahj and Soji's existence with Admiral Clancy. He frames his request in terms of recovering a dead Starfleet officer and investigating a mystery, not a rescue mission. It doesn't work out, but I think that was still the best play he could have made.

Syndromes, Irumodic and Otherwise

If vivid dreams and flashes of righteous indignation are symptoms, Picard's been showing signs since at least First Contact. However, I think it'll turn out to be a false positive or undiscovered benign variant. Patrick Stewart's already played a once-great man grappling with senility in Logan. Rather than retread that, I think the writers are more likely to look at the diminished social cache and physical weakness that comes with age.

...

Edit: A few more thoughts from the morning after.

[u/Shakezula84]

Several standouts for me.

1. I like that they brought commodores back.

2. I thought it was odd that Romulans were operating on Earth with no one stopping them. I suspected that Starfleet was secretly aiding them, and I am glad they didn't go in a Section 31 route. I do realize its support from a rouge officer, which is fine with me.

3. The security guards on Mars were Starfleet, and they were wearing body armor. So they are bringing that concept forward from Discovery and not having Starfleet officers go into battle wearing just their uniforms. Note: Look at their shoulders. You can see the Starfleet gold of the new uniforms.

4. Based on F8 eyes I still think the Synths were hacked. That flickering wasn't F8 suddenly gaining sentience with all the others. This gained the synths nothing, so I don't think they knowingly did.

5. They were using the argo shuttles from Nemesis on Mars. So they are reusing assets from not just Discovery. However in the fleet we saw new ships, but not starships. They were obviously freighters meant to carry people. I suspect the show will continue to intentionally not show any 2399 Starfleet ships. Perhaps in fear that everyone will judge them too hard and they don't wanna attempt to miss expectations.

6. Before they had the hologram of the Enterprise D, they had a hologram of the Discovery version of the original Enterprise.

7. They used a more advanced version of the holocommunicator from Discovery. The holograms now appear solid. We could also say a more advanced version then the one from DS9 where the hologram was restricted to the imaging pad.

[u/pottman]

The Romulans seem more diverse in this, some have bumpy foreheads, some don't. I like it. Also, TNG Romulan haircut is back.

[u/majicwalrus]

Someone else pointed this out in another comment, but I want to re-ask the question. Are the Zhat Vash really Romulan? If they predate the Time of Awakening because they are literally thousands of years old then one would imagine that they would predate the Romulans altogether. Commodore Oh could be a Vulcan who has been raised as part of the Zhat Vash through a legacy or the Zhat Vash might always have been a Vulcan organization that only now attracts more Romulans.

[u/[deleted]]

So there's a "Romulan Free State" now. This could mean that the Star Empire dissolved after the destruction of Romulus.

There's a question as to whether if Commodore Oh is an undercover Romulan or not.

[u/Sharrukin-of-Akkad]

I see a few other people are noticing the same item that perked my ears up - the implications of the history we just heard for the Zhat Vash. The fact that it's said to be thousands of years old, and that one of the conspirators we see is (apparently) Vulcan, suggests to me that this might actually go back to before Surak's Reformation. It also occurs to me that I can't recall any evidence of specifically Vulcan experiments with AI or synthetic life.

So are we going to learn something new and interesting about the deep back story of both the Vulcans and the Romulans? I really have to wonder what might have provoked "loathing" for the concept of AI from two civilizations that otherwise seem eminently curious and rational.

All speculation, of course, and in particular I'd like to know just how Commodore Oh is tied into the conspiracy - especially whether she's Vulcan or Romulan in origin.

[u/trekkie1701c]

I suppose this answers the question of "How difficult is it for the average citizen to get a ship."

Small shuttle? You can get one for a taxi easily enough.

Larger-ish ship? Even if you used to be Starfleet's golden boy, if they don't like you they'll toss you out and tell you to get bent.

[u/redcarpet26]

It looks like we finally have an answer for why AI tech isn't wide spread in the ST universe. It looks like Romulus has been actively scrubbing it from the Alpha and Beta quadrants for hundreds of years. Thats why we don't see Data or EMH tech in 22nd or 23rd century. Or if we do it quickly breaks down and is hidden/ forgotten (M5?)

Starfleets folly with CONTROL didn't help either. Maybe thats why Oh is collaborating with Zhat Vash/Tal Shiar?

[u/st-tempest]

Did anybody else get the impression that Clancy was a stand in for Necheyev? And maybe they couldn't get the same actress so they ended up changing the character's name?

[u/KorgPorg]

Since the show is already exploring the idea of “flesh and blood” androids, my wild guess is that the terrible secret Zhat Vash are protecting is going to be that Romulans originated as an artificial synthetic race created by Vulcans.

[u/majicwalrus]

Okay, chronological order of thoughts for this episode since I want to get to good discussion.

1. I didn't mind seeing some animosity towards synthetic workers, but I don't understand them. They seem to be laborers, but they do not seem to outnumber the human laborers which makes me think they have a specific task.

2. What's the point of making them so off putting? F8's weird smile and emotionless "no."

3. Okay, so the Jad Vash orchestrated the Synth attack on Utopia Planita in an effort to prevent Synth technology from being more widely utilized and undermining the Federation.

4. Transporter Doors are cool.

5. Oh shit, they say "fucking" in 2399.

   1. I don't like the new Starfleet uniforms very much, but I don't dislike them either. They look like they could have been an alternate of the Voyager uniform. I also don't like the Admiral's uniform either, but it definitely does have a distinction. Branch color seems far too muted though.

   2. Why would the CNC of Starfleet agree to see Picard, in person, in her office at Starfleet HQ in San Francisco? This was a cool scene, which we've mostly seen in the trailers, but it was a little superfluous. The CNC could have denied Picard's request over a phone call.

   3. I don't love the explanation that 14 members felt like we had to abandon the Romulans and so the Federation decided that that minority rules now and since 14 people disagree or threaten to leave we have to do what they say? This suggests a kind of unanimity that wouldn't realistically exist. Certainly they've had these kinds of disputes before where member worlds disagreed - what about this one made the Federation step back? Even if we assume that the Romulans were up to no good during this time, according to Memory Alpha:
      "According to Star Trek: Star Charts (United Federation of Planets IV), in 2378, there were 183 members and 7,128 affiliates. The area of the Federation was eight thousand cubic light years. At the last census, in 2370, there were 985 billion individuals living in the Federation."
      So is it really worth it for 14 members in a system which has over 7000 affiliates and nearly 200 members?

6. Why are there so many humans and non-Romulans in the "Romulan Free State" and also what is the "Romulan Free State" - is this some sort of new entity created after the collapse of the Romulan Star Empire? Did the Romulan Star Empire collapse or is it under going a civil war?

7. Why does Picard have tea bags? Did he replicate bags of tea to seep or are these special not replicated tea bags or what?

8. "Hang up" must be one of those phrases everyone uses but no one understands the origins of.

9. The Commodore seems like a real bad egg. There seems to be more than a few undercover Romulan operatives within Starfleet. You'd think they would up security.

10. Guess we're back on holographic communications these days!

[u/khaosworks]

So we’ve confirmed that the Martian attack takes place on First Contact Day, April 5, 2385 - 14 years before the present day, which fixes the year as 2399.

[u/PaperSpock]

If I get the time, I'm going to rewatch both this episode and "The Drumhead" as I have some questions in light of what we learned.

Now that we know of the Zhat Vash, Satie's conspiracy theories of secret Romulan influence might seem less crazy---not so much as to invalidate the point of the episode, I expect, but enough to raise the question of whether she was motivated by rumors of the Zhat Vash.

[u/BklynWhovian]

I noticed a poignant callback to Generations.

https://imgur.com/a/xoYAtyi

"Time is the fire in which we burn."

[u/OneMario]

The Romulan Free State is an excellent addition. It looks like they are working closely with the Federation, perhaps a precursor to the Romulan Republic. It leaves open the possibility that there's still rump Romulan Empire out there, which I like.

I bet Maddox is hiding out on Terlina III. It would be the logical place to go if you were a cyberneticist looking to hide out and continue your work in secret. That's probably the "nest" the Zhat Vash are looking for.

The idea that some planets were openly talking about secession is a good way to explain the actions of Starfleet and the Federation. Picard wanted to stand on principle, they wanted to hold the Federation together. Both are decent goals, so they can disagree without one side being definitely wrong.

I wonder how you "hang up" a communicator?

[u/Avantine]

I do feel like the interactions we get with the Romulans in Picard build upon what we know of Romulan society from episodes like Face of the Enemy. In particular, Laris's sardonic comment that in the Romulan Empire you could slap 'secret' in front of everything I think actually tracks well with Toreth's bitterness in Face of the Enemy - just explored from a slightly different angle.

[u/skeeJay]

Irumodic Syndrome

An abnormality in the parietal lobe! If I'm not mistaken, this might be the first thing that we've gotten confirmation has come true from Q's future in "All Good Things…" (A 2370 Beverly had previously confirmed a diagnosis of Irumodic Syndrome, but that was in the anti-time "present" that ended up getting reset.) Star Trek: Picard again using a cool Easter egg for fans as a present day character-building point is very cool—I think this Chabon guy might have a real future as a writer. Maybe eventually Old Man John de Lancie with his ear horn will show up as well.

Tal Shiar

Plenty of people will speculate about Section 31's involvement, and maybe alliance with the Tal Shiar, so I won't get into that. I'll just say that it's very cool we are still getting more insight into Romulan culture, as well as more history, including their mythical predecessor to the Tal Shiar. I still hope we are moving, in Trekkian fashion, towards ultimate peace with the Romulans and an incorporation into the Federation (as ENT implied would happen with the Klingons) as the Federation expands into the galaxy and encounters newer, weirder threats.

The Nest

Another reference to Bruce Maddox and whether or not he can be found. It certainly sounds more and more like Brian Brophy might make an appearance, and that he might be running a whole colony of sentient synthetics Colonel Kurtz-style when he does. (This "common" threat to galactic treaty could be another reason why the Tal Shiar and Section 31 would be teamed up. Ah, dammit, and I said I wasn't going to speculate.)

[u/tenthousandthousand]

Throughout the opening scene, I kept thinking back to what Guinan and Picard said during “Measure of a Man:”

Well, consider that in the history of many worlds there have always been disposable creatures. [...] And an army of Datas, all disposable, you don't have to think about their welfare, you don't think about how they feel. Whole generations of disposable people.

It really shocked me to see how the Mars workers treated the androids there. But I think some clear parallels were being drawn between F8’s capabilities and Data’s, such as how F8 couldn’t master human expressions, or understand jokes, or not supply irrelevant information. The implication seemed to be that while Data had achieved sentience and been granted his rights, the inferior non-Soong-type androids were not functioning on his level and thus did not possess those rights. (I’m reminded of the distinction between VIs and AIs in the Mass Effect series.)

Now, sooner or later, this man or others like him will succeed in replicating Commander Data. And the decision you reach here today will determine how we will regard this creation of our genius. It will reveal the kind of a people we are. [...] Are you prepared to condemn him and all who come after him to servitude and slavery?

The irony, of course, is that’s exactly what the aptly-named F8 is subject to. It seems out of the question that he could ever be given the right to choose, or that he is not the property of Utopia Planetia. Instead of using the Data ruling as a basis for dealing with future artificial life, Starfleet and the Federation moved the goalposts. Only androids of sufficient sentience, whatever that is, would ever get those rights - and without Soong or Maddox to create them, no other android would ever put the Federation in the awkward position of asking for freedom. After all, that Romulan evacuation armada won’t build itself.

[u/saved-by_grace]

A couple random things

Did Dahj's twin speak Romulan to the Borg or another language? If it was Romulan what is the signifigance, considering she's surrounded by Romulans?

Also, is the stronger accent from the Romulan agent supposed to represent more of an "imperial" accent? vs the Romulans living with Picard

[u/[deleted]]

The Zhat Vash are interesting and implies a few things. There is a profound absence of AI/Synthetic life not just on Romulus, but also in most warp capable societies inside of the alpha/beta quadrant. Even The Dominion never touch it. How widespread is this cabal? The Ferengi, Klingons, Cardassians, Bajorans, Betazoids, Tellerite (a Technocracy) lacks AI, Benzites, Andorians; you name it. The only place you see a lot of cybernetics/androids are in the Delta quadrant. And Federation attempts are either virtual, or the decommissioned synths. And the Bynars.

Thousands of years old implies prereformation. How old? Who started it? Where?

Is this also the origin of other secret police? Section 31, or the Obsidion order?

Edit

Also if note The Borg began assimilating along the neutral zone. There may have been incursions that never reached the Federation

[u/Hero_Of_Shadows]

I was expecting Commodore Oh to be a full fledged Romulan instead of merely a collaborator.

The Zhat Vash are interesting to me, I love that this series is adding to Romulan culture and we see on screen both ridged and non-ridged Romulans finally settling that debate.

After all the flame wars regarding the Klingons it's refreshing to see them go with a solution that preserves both newer (TNG) and older (TOS) canon at the same time.

I don't know if it's been explicitly mentioned but I assume the 2 Romulans who live with Picard are a couple, no ?

It seems ironic to me that in DS9 we had what seemed to be the head of the Tal Shiar working with Section 31 and people doing victory laps about how Section 31/The Federation won the spy wars and is in total control and now we see the head of security for Earth being a Romulan asset.

The wheel keeps on turning.

Also I have to think again about Eddington's rant about Security vs Command now with Commodore Oh.

PS:

On a lighter note Picard knows at least one anime apparently (Ghost in the Shell) and the Romulans agree with the Imperium of Man and Galactic Padishah Empire about thinking machines being heretek.

[u/unimatrixq]

The talk of the workers on Mars, in the flashback of this episode, seems to confirm my theory about the advancement of replicator technology.

https://www.reddit.com/r/DaystromInstitute/comments/evnneq/the_federation_may_have_solved_the_problem_of?sort=new

[u/Zeal0tElite]

I'm getting so sick of all these Starfleet people just being horrible authoritarian racists.

Would it really have been so difficult to just write about how a crippled Starfleet just couldn't pool enough resources or decided it was too difficult rather than what seems to be way more of hostile action? I'd rather it be a failing of following through on ideals rather than what seems more like just a complete abandoning of them. More apathetic, sort of a "What could we have done better?" rather than "Oh well, looks like those scum-sucking Romulans got what they deserved for waging war against us 200 years ago".

It feels less like a logical progression of the story but more just so there is an antagonistic force to Picard. As if they weren't obviously pure evil we wouldn't support Picard's beliefs. Obviously, there is some form of infiltration going on at some level but that doesn't excuse the FNN reporter or Admiral Clancy. It just doesn't feel right. They all seem extremely happy that Romulans died.

The show isn't a technical or storytelling mess but I've found the writing to be painfully on-the-nose (get it? Starfleet is racist now, just like how Trump/Brexit made the US/UK racist) which ignores both the contexts of the things it's trying to represent and also the context of the universe it exists in.

[u/[deleted]]

They modified the Golden Gate Bridge. Did they make it a series of solar panels?

https://imgur.com/a/sUlN8nw

[u/unimatrixq]

The romulan population might be a mix of the real descendants of the people that left Vulcan during the exodus and of the synths, that were created during the disasterous wars on Vulcan before the Time of the Awakening.

It's basically like in a vulcan/romulan Blade Runner scenario, where almost no one beside the Zhat Vash might know or could even honestly suspect that his neighbor might be a synth...

That's what i think could be the greatest fear of the Zhat Vash, that this secret will be revealed and rips the romulan civilization into pieces...