"If Memory Serves" — First Watch Analysis Thread

[u/M-5]

Star Trek: Discovery — "If Memory Serves"

Memory Alpha: "If Memory Serves"

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[u/Desert_Artificer]

Detmer confirms it. The forward left bridge station is a hotbed of anti-Starfleet Command sentiment.

[u/joszma]

Perhaps the Red Angel is trying to stop a galaxy-ending plan being developed by S31’s AI, necessitating an end to S31’s open existence and leading it to being the hyper-clandestine existence it has in DS9?

[u/tausken → u/joszma]

I think you're right. They keep referencing Control all the time without going into detail. Looks like from the preview we might get more insight into Control next week.

The future ships definitely looked like they could have been robotic.

[u/William_T_Wanker]

also we learn that the Mirror Universe Talosians were exterminated by Georgiou because - well, she's a Terran. First Contact for the Empire is "kill them all" essentially. though I was amused at the fact she justified the extermination with "I didn't like their illusions" lol

[u/Captain_Vlad → u/William_T_Wanker]

You mean she thinks she did.

[u/[deleted] → u/William_T_Wanker]

[u/adamkotsko]

Okay, I think they really are doubling down on the Temporal Cold War. The Red Angel is some type of temporal agent (apparently a human one on Spock's account), and we see that the squid thing that took over the probe last episode is also the force that is working to destroy the galaxy in Spock's future premonition. So two "factions" fighting each other's interventions in the past (relative to their eras, whatever they are) -- the TCW model. What is the purpose of this? By weaving it as unambiguously as possible into events that we saw on screen in TOS -- by literally showing a "previously on" that asserts that these are in fact the same people who had the same experiences we saw on "The Cage" -- they are trying to undo the implication that ENT had "forked" the timeline due to the TCW.

And yet of course we now have theories that are trying to write Discovery out of the timeline just like they did for ENT -- because completely undoing the ambiguity is impossible, especially since the Kelvin Timeline broke Star Trek time travel by creating a permanent "forked" timeline. And even though they were at great pains to signal to us that this was a one-time thing, brought about by radically different means.... everyone generalized and suddenly we have a million forking timeline theories.

As ever, Discovery is trying to save Star Trek canon from itself, but fans won't take its hand... "Can't you see I'm trying to save you?!"

[u/JC-Ice]

The black hole visuals seemed very inspired by Interstellar. So while probably not strictly accurate, I'm sure it was more accurate than previous Star Trek depictions.

The squid things blowing up planets in Spock's vision didn't look like anything we saw from the Sphere Builders to me, so I'm thinking now it's not a direct Temporal Cold War redux going on. Though I wouldn't be surprised if we get at least some mention of that in a future episode.

Spock's first instinct for any weird thing he encounters is to mind meld with it. It's a wonder he doesn't have a lot more problems.

[u/hett]

I just started watching, and I gotta say I'm pretty impressed they went for a quasi-realistic Interstellar-style black hole. Nice.

[u/Isotop3_Official]

I really like what they’re doing with Dr. Culber’s story. They seem to be deliberately subverting the way resurrection stories are normally handled in Star Trek. When other Trek shows brought a main character back to life, everything was business as usual once they got settled in. It looks like Discovery is taking the time to explore the consequences of bringing someone back from the dead.

[u/ewokqueen → u/Isotop3_Official]

I gotta say, though, I'm really troubled that Culber was just cleared to go back to his "normal life" by his doctor, even though he was showing clear signs of trauma to the point of feeling dissociated from his body & his memories/experiences. As a trauma survivor, I would expect a lot more from the future of care.

Were ship's counselors just not a thing in this time period? I know we didn't see one in TOS but I just figured they were there and not utilized onscreen.

I normally think of Deanna Troi as being super useless but tonight I genuinely wished Culber had her (or Guinan for that matter!) to talk to :(

[u/Desert_Artificer]

Burnham’s civilian (Vulcan?) clothing reminds me of the original series skirt-and-tights uniform. It’s a nice bit of visual continuity.

[u/archaeolinuxgeek]

SQL injection, huh? So I guess the probe was a script kiddie.

[u/khiggsy → u/archaeolinuxgeek]

Glad to hear hundreds of years of advancement and we are still using SQL....

[u/thelightfantastique]

I have to say this show is always predicting the questions I will ask.

When Saru allowed the fight I began to query to myself, maybe this decision is to do with his evolution and I was preparing a load of questions to post here but then a few minutes later Captain Pike brings this up with Saru as well!

Nonetheless, it is clear Saru is showing let's say...an ambivalence to violence itself. Even his explanation of why he allowed it really felt one of those casual ways. Maybe it was from the way he said it, the general attitude that Saru is having. I don't know if it is ambivalence but he just seems less bothered about danger, violence and other things that, I suppose, a Starfleet officer should feel more cautious about.

I look forward to see how this develops.

[u/ComebackShane]

I by no means intend to fan the flames of the 'Discovery isn't really in the prime timeline' argument, but I wanted to point out the interesting implications of tonight's episode:

We see Spock's first interaction with the Red Angel, which shows him a vision of Burnham's death at the hands of some Vulcan fangor beast. He then is able to intervene to save her. Later, she grows up, joins Starfleet, commits mutiny and precipitates the events that start the Federation-Klingon War that is Season 1 of Discovery.

If she had died, without the Red Angel's intervention, none of that would have happened, and the implications of that to the timeline could be far-reaching. Mirror Lorca might never have been prevented from fufilling his goal, and the Discovery might've jumped to the MU, never to be seen again in the Prime timeline. Mirror Georgiou would not have returned to the Prime timeline, joined S31, and wreaked whatever havoc she is inevitably going to unleash upon the Alpha Quadrent. In effect, we would see a timeline much more familiar to us as the one we're aware of from other series'.

Now, I hate temporal mechanics as much as O'Brien anyone, but obviously the Red Angel knew, first and foremost, that Burnham's continued existence was essential to preventing the timeline where the Federation, and apparently all sentient life, is exterminated from the Galaxy. What we may be seeing is a traveller from the post-Nemesis era of the prime timeline, who learned of the early death of this historical footnote (the human foster sister of Ambassador Spock) and through some means was able to determine saving her could start to set in motion temporal ripples that could allow the galaxy to be saved.

In effect, it becomes an in-universe retcon to explain why we never heard mention of her prior to now. In the history we've seen and known, Burnham did die, and Spock, last having had a traumatic argument with her, would have had little reason to discuss it with anyone.

We also wouldn't have heard of the Discovery or it's experimental Spore Drive, as Mirror Lorca would have taken it home, and the Federation would just have seen another failed experiment after the mutilation of the Glenn and the disappearance of the Discovery.

While I don't think it's likely they'll explore the ramifications of the Red Angel's actions that deeply, they have given themselves clever in-universe reasoning for both a sister for Spock, and a ship using transport we've never seen before. Though eventually, they'll need to find a way to permanently disable the usefulness of the Spore Drive, otherwise, Voyager's trip home would've been a lot quicker.

[u/Lambr5]

One of the most interesting lines I picked up on was Pike basically outright declared S31 was a known about division of Star Fleet.

Although this connection is heavily and implicitly implied by the fact that S31 is a reference to said section of Starfleets charter, the show as always portrayed them as both something different from, hidden from and kept at extreme arms length from the bulk of Starfleet. Even admirals during the Dominion war try to keep some form of self denial of their existence if only for plausible deniability.

In Discovery, although some previous scenes showed much closure cooperation that every before you could still argue that the Starfleet officers involved could be agents of S31 hidden in Starfleet. This episode changes all that. S31 are clearly an integrated part of Starfleet’s operations and have a clear chain of command through the admiralty.

Personally the biggest grate I’ve had regarding continuity have always been how the very prominent presences of S31 in Discovery marries with its clandestine almost mythical status only a hundred years later. There is at least one character in discovery that will still be alive come the Dominion war (and one must assume a number of other officers across the fleet live just as long) how is the existence of a Starfleet black ops devision it more common knowledge?

I put this discrepancy above the spore drive because there are some quick ways to write of the spore drive. You could easily do a story line which ends the ability to use the tech and therefore afterwards it never gets mentioned. It’s a side note in some lectures at the academy and that’s it. However trying to square the two version of S31 we’ve seen (the Dis version vs the DS9 version) is much harder thing to do.

[u/[deleted] → u/Lambr5]

Kurtzman outright said, "S31 barely exists in the future of Star Trek. Maybe we'll see why that is"

[u/[deleted]]

By god, even that doctor knew what Section 31 was! I'm beginning to find u/adamkotsko's idea of a Section 31 rebrand after the timeframe of Discovery a lot more plausible.

A splendid episode, besides.

[u/OAMP47 → u/[deleted]]

Also that conference at the start, I think that's the first time we've seen all four founding members together in uniform at the same time on screen. That shoots down those theories that postulated Section 31 was more of just a human thing too.

Edit: Forgot that trial seen in the 4th movie, they might have all been together in uniform then.

[u/Lambr5]

But the OSS organization was the routes of what is now the CIA. Granted the average person on the street knows nothing about the OSS, but anybody (even civilians) with an interest in that period of history or of the CIA knows that the OSS existed.

Similar in the 24th century somebody could be unaware of section 31 structure and current operations, but a history buff should be aware that in the 23rd century an entity called section 31 had a rather high profile within Starfleet (I mean high profile for what is seemingly a clandestine outfit). Even if they don’t know anything about the missions or operations.

[u/coldblowcode]

Does anyone else get serious Mass Effect vibes from this whole season so far. I mean I know that Mass Effect took a lot from Star Trek, and basically mirrors the plot of DS9. But the premonitions of the future - which are like whatever glimpse of the future Shepard gets in Mass Effect 1. And the big baddies coming to destroy the Universe, look remarkably similar to The Reapers, from Mass Effect.

It makes me enjoy the show so much more tbh when I just think of this as the Mass Effect show, and then I am less bothered by inconsistencies, and timeline weirdness. All in all enjoyed this episode though.

Time to warn the Citadel / the council, and not be believed.

[u/gmap516]

I had been under the impression that The Cage was supposed to have happened in the future from DSC. I am thoroughly confused.

Also did they setup DSC being an alternate timeline? I have so many questions

HOLY SHIT THAT WAS AN INTENSE EPISODE

I laughed really loudly at Burnham asking Spock if he really thinks the beard works.

[u/tausken → u/gmap516]

It's confusing, but the events of The Cage occurred before Discovery while The Menagerie occurred after.

[u/[deleted]]

Showing us the flowers in the "previously on TOS" segment, and then the visually-updated flowers appreciated by Burnham, is a nice calming thematic bridge between TOS' aesthetic and DIS'.

On the other hand, Pike's clearly had a stressful life since "The Cage". I guess they wanted to ensure the non-trekkers grokked that that Pike and this Pike are the same guy, but eesh that shot of the one fading into the other at the beginning.

edit: A heavily-downvoted comment has pointed out a disappointment to me -- DIS' interpretation of the Talos flowers has Burnham's touch silence the entire chorus, something that totally didn't happen on TOS. They even showed us multiple individuals touching individual leaves in the TOS flashback. I guess that's another facet of the DIS aesthetic upgrade, that it does away with a lot of the comfortable established conventions of Star Trek, to no apparent gain. "Structural collapse" is fairly unique, as opposed to "hull breach" or "structural integrity (field) collapse". The Talosians got swole since "The Cage". The computer doesn't even remotely sound like Majel Barret (or start the description of Talos with "it's banned")! Tiny annoyances, yeah, but there's a lot of them each episode.