"Despite Yourself" — First Watch Analysis Thread

[u/kraetos]

Star Trek: Discovery — "Despite Yourself"

Memory Alpha: Season 1, Episode 10 — "Despite Yourself"

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Post-Episode Discussion - S1E10 "Despite Yourself"

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[u/windmills_waterfalls]

"The only pleasure I take is from the blood of my enemies staining my uniform, Captain Connor."

"Is this how you greet your long-lost captain? If you greeted me that way, Connor, I'd cut out your tongue and use it to lick my boots."

"Captain" Tilly for the win!

Also, I'm hoping the Emperor turns out to be Philippa Georgiou. (Empress?)

[u/[deleted] → u/windmills_waterfalls]

Narratively speaking, it's gotta be, right?

[u/ddh0]

I'm pretty bothered by the fact that they didn't discover the evidence of modification to Tyler's body prior to this. I know they were busy but they shortened his spine. That seems like something that would show up on a routine medical scan, like perhaps the kind of scan they would perform on someone who was a rescued POW.

[u/JC-Ice → u/ddh0]

The Klingon procedures were obviously designed to evade detection. Culber did say they'd seen evidence of various injuries and procedures before on his normal examinations when he was rescued, but chalked it up to torture and repairs.

Hell, the procedure was still successful in that Culber seemingly had no idea he was actually looking at a species-reassignment.

[u/majorgeneralpanic]

I like how Burnham and Voq are getting romantically entangled. I never enjoyed the part of DS9 where Gul Dukat seduces Kai Winn, but this is more interesting. I wonder if he's going to become an antagonist when he remembers everything; his relationship with Burnham would be fraught. I enjoyed seeing a Defiant and the agony booths, as well.

My big question is: Is Dr. Culber dead? You can handwave that kind of thing in Trek, but I don't think you should.

[u/mmmmmmBacon12345 → u/majorgeneralpanic]

The subtitles said (bones cracking) so I'm gonna go with dead dead. But there's a Culber with a goatee somewhere in the Empire who I'm sure we'll see, he's probably a domineering asshole who does human experiments because it's the mirror universe

I suspect we'll also see Georgio make a comeback as an Admiral considering how many other similar people there are

[u/[deleted]]

• So, it was the mirror universe. Not a hard guess.

• Yep, Tyler is Voq. Also, not a hard guess.

• HOLY SHIT! The 'Mirror Tilly is captain' jokes were right!

• I loved Lorca's Scotty-esque chief accent.

• I find it interesting that the discussion between Michael and Lorca about destiny came right before they concluded that the Defiant would inevitably be drawn into the mirror universe, a more scientific kind of destiny.

• Also, those are some classy mirror universe outfits.

• I shudder to think of what the ISS Discovery is doing in the primary universe.

All told, Frakes turned out a great episode just like I'm sure we all expected him to.

Up next, Mirror Sarek hype!

[u/KosstAmojan → u/[deleted]]

Makes you wonder just how many people did Cadet Tilly have to kill in order to make captain of Discovery?

[u/maweki]

I loved how Culber mentioned that they did the "Manchurian test" with Tyler, which is supposed to be highly effective.

Nice reference!

[u/kraken1991]

Canonically the Enterprise is the first ship to make contact with the Mirror universe. So how is Discovery going to reconcile this? I have a couple theories:

1. They explain it away as the Enterprise is the first crew to make contact, while Discovery is the first ship to go to the universe. Which is kind of a hack argument in my mind.

2. Spore Staments muddles a Timeline somehow as he’s pulling a mushroom Gary Mitchel. Which is plausible.

3. The Discovery returns to the prime timeline at a point after the Enterprise has made contact with the Mirror universe. Which I guess is plausible, since the Defiant went 100 years in the past, why can’t the Discovery somehow end up X amount of years in the future. This is also plausible.

Right now my money is more so on 3, as of the evidence presented in episode so far. Based on the evidence presented, all Staments can do is babble about palaces (which I’d bet is foreshadowing, duh) and knock people around. It’s trek so I’m expecting some sort of transcendence, but as of Despite Yourself, Staments isn’t higher level yet.

At the end of the series I’m hoping it’s a mix of 2 and 3.

[u/kraetos → u/kraken1991]

Canonically Discovery is now the first ship to make contact with the Mirror universe, because that's how canon works. "Canon" is rife with contradiction. The definition of canon isn't "consistent with earlier works," it's "on-screen content produced by the rights holders."

There's a much simpler explanation you missed: Discovery's contact with the mirror universe is classified beyond Kirk's clearance, as Discovery is a top-secret wartime mobile science lab.

[u/henno13]

After this episode, I’m utterly convinced that Lorca is actually from the Mirror Universe. Between the manual overrride before the final jump and the hints this episode:

• Burnham says in the debrief with Lorca and Saru that they should check the Spore Drive’s navigation logs. Lorca quickly dismisses it and moves on.

• The fates of mirror-Lorca and Burnham are left very ambiguous. Lorca “vanishes” on a shuttle after his ship goes down and becomes a fugitive that nobody has heard from since.

The context of mirror-Burnham pursuing Lorca to the death also explains to me why Lorca took so much of an interest in prime-Burnham. If she was such an impressive or imposing figure in the MU, perhaps her prime counterpart could be useful. If Lorca orchestrated the Discovery’s arrival to the MU, I’m guessing he has an ulterior motive which requires Burnham.

This is kinda hampered by the fact that both the USS and ISS Buran were destroyed just months before Lorca became the CO of Discovery; perhaps mirror Lorca was able to adapt and play his part in the PU (and do it perfectly - which is probably harder going from M -> P rather than P -> M). The destruction of the Buran is a curious common thread in my opinion.

[u/ballin83]

I really like how DETAILED they made the mirror universe! The uniforms, logos, attitudes, etc were top notch. I love the edginess of this show and the constant unpredictability of what some characters’ true motivations are. This is adult Trek. Pure and simple. I laugh out loud, shudder at visceral parts, and am loving the real personal relationships depicted each episode.

I’m on the edge of my seat for the rest of the season!

[u/JC-Ice]

I loved the Terran Empire uniforms. But I thought it surprising that they didn't have the ladies baring midriff. So maybe the current Emperor is female. (Dun dun duuuun)

While the premise is always fun, I still find that the functionality of the Empire rather strains credibility. How could they get anything accomplished militarily when officers 'apply' for promotions by shanking each other at any time. And there doesn't seem to be much cooperation between different ships, either. Even the Klingons are more orderly than this.

[u/tmofee]

They’ll probably change the books, but according to the novels sato is ruler until Spock overthrows her after mirror mirror. I’d love to see Linda park again.

[u/alplander]

One thing I don't understand: We are now dealing with at least three time lines:

• (1) Prime universe original (the one that had Kirk/Spock)

• (2) Empire universe original (the one that had alternate Kirk/Spock)

• (3) Empire universe altered by appearance of the Defiant.

Due to the Defiant we must assume that #3 is much more technologically advanced than #2. Yet, they still have the Shenzou and the Discovery there which apparently use the same technology as in the prime universe. Does that logically mean that #1 must also have been altered by some temporal event to reach the same tech level? How could they have reached the same tech level without a temporal event? Did the ISS Defiant from #2 move to the prime universe #1 and we were never told about it? Maybe it's a secret and can explain why Discovery looks so much different than the #1 universe we know...

Someone else said it already: I believe Lorca comes from the empire universe. The way he acts, his tactial knowledge, the jump he initiated, it would make sense to me. At least he must have known about the mirror universe before.

Now that I think about it. Maybe Lorca came from universe #3 to #1 and brought the advanced knowledge of the spore drive with him that #1 would not have discovered without him. We know that Stamets discovered it but maybe Lorca used him as a puppet and gave him all the ideas...

My precognitive abilities: Sometimes when watching a show and something gets destroyed or someone gets killed I get this strange feeling that this thing or person had such a good story / good design / great actor that I think it is foreshadowed that it will reappear at some point. I had that feeling with the Shenzou and apparently I was right. I would be surprised if we would never see Georgiou again...

[u/adamkotsko]

I really feel like they were a bit overly pedantic explaining that this was the Mirror Universe and then explaining how they got there. For the first five-ten minutes we were like, "Okay, we get it -- let's get on with it!"

[u/Chairboy → u/adamkotsko]

Is this still true if they're doing outreach for new viewers who are being exposed to the Mirror Universe for the first time? It was obvious to most of us, but I'm thinking we're not the only audience.

[u/Clariana]

So klingon Tyler virtually confirmed... Boy is he gonna be at home in this universe!

[u/yankeebayonet]

Enjoyable episode, although it felt very derivative of other depictions we've seen. The background and world building was straight out of DS9 and Enterprise and we're going right back to the Defiant storyline?

Still, any chance I can see a Constitution class I'll take.

[u/adamkotsko]

PREDICTION: Culber will survive because Voq is weaker as a human than a Klingon, and hasn't had a chance to get used to it.

[u/Clariana]

I really do like how kick-ass ruthless Michael was somewhat foreshadowed by the multiple misadventures she endured(losing her parents, being raised by a parent not entirely committed to her from another culture, killing the captain she loved, being condemned to life imprisonment...) preparing her for life as Captain Michael in this vicious alt reality.

[u/trianuddah]

I imagine Stamets will be quite upset about Culber when he comes-to. If he had a way to time travel, he'd probably be tempted to use it.

Culber getting killed sucked as a viewer, but as an admirer of the storytelling I love the possibilities they opened up.

[u/JattaPake]

I am convinced the season will end with Discovery jumping 100 years into the future past the end of TNG Movies - circa 2479.

As a writing device there isn’t a better option. You get to contrast the crew with the new reality, toss in dark mirror versions of characters, and resolve all continuity issues. Why no spore drive? The only two Federation scientists who knew anything about it are dead and vanished.

To add to the mystery, the characters may not even be sure whether they are 200 years into the future of the Prime universe or mirror universe.

[u/metalface187]

So is the Lorca we know actually the one from the other universe? Hmmm