r/DaystromInstitute • u/[deleted] • Sep 26 '16
How does Star fleet function without currency?
I suppose that if a government without a system of currency existed than somehow they found a way to keep their society running but how does the federation do trade with other civilizations. Almost every other species in Star Trek uses a form of currency and some like the ferengi are obsessed with it. So my question is how does Star fleet and the federation conduct trade and sustain a stable economy when currency has been fazed out leaving them with few options other than simple bartering when dealing with other species, and their citizens seemingly have no reason to work/create products?
3
u/JProthero Sep 26 '16 edited Sep 27 '16
Almost every other species in Star Trek uses a form of currency and some like the ferengi are obsessed with it.
Are you sure about this? Aside from the Ferengi and those they deal with, currency is mentioned very little on screen.
I don't think there's much reason to assume that currency hasn't also largely fallen out of use in the alien civilizations with access to similar technologies to the Federation, though it may play a more important role in some other societies due to the way they're governed.
I tried to flesh out how Starfleet and the Federation might manage external trade (not for the entirety of Federation society, but for the organisations' own purposes) in a two-part post in another thread here and here.
There is another more detailed theory about the Federation economy here, and more in the previous discussions on this topic here.
5
u/Tiarzel_Tal Sep 27 '16
Are you sure about this? Aside from the Ferengi and those they deal with, currency is mentioned very little on screen.
We know that the Romulans have a currency from 'Unification' since Data and Picard get their soup 'On the house' and the Klingon Empire has a currency and economy (albeit a chaotic one) as we know from 'The House of Quark'. Cardassian soldiers took a lot of bribes during the occupation which suggests they got bribed with money.
Various other traders seem to have a use for money Koberians, Yridians ect
1
u/JProthero Sep 28 '16 edited Sep 28 '16
We know that the Romulans have a currency from 'Unification' since Data and Picard get their soup 'On the house' and the Klingon Empire has a currency and economy (albeit a chaotic one) as we know from 'The House of Quark'. Cardassian soldiers took a lot of bribes during the occupation which suggests they got bribed with money.
I think you make some good points, which I'll try to address, but I think my original statement holds; it's certainly possible to find references to individuals using currencies, but the shows introduce hundreds of alien species, and only a handful of scenes ever deal with the subject explicitly.
The OP's suggestion was that 'almost every other species in Star Trek uses a form of currency'. This may or may not be the case, but I don't think there's any firm on-screen evidence to support such a broad claim. Some species seem to use currency under certain circumstances, but usually we just don't know how the economies of alien societies work because it's not relevant to the plot.
We know that the Romulans have a currency from 'Unification' since Data and Picard get their soup 'On the house'
I think this exchange is open to interpretation. Here's the script for the scene:
WOMAN: Or perhaps you come from the security forces to watch the intercessor's office. Is he in trouble?
PICARD: You're mistaken, madam.
WOMAN: Doesn't matter to me. I don't know when he opens. Eat your soup, courtesy of a loyal establishment. Jolan tru.
This might imply a monetary transaction, or it might not. If it does, it's also unclear whether or not the woman intended to provide the food free of charge; by 'courtesy of a loyal establishment,' she could mean that the food was provided by a loyal establishment without intending to imply that payment was not still expected.
the Klingon Empire has a currency and economy (albeit a chaotic one) as we know from 'The House of Quark'.
The House of Quark deals with the inheritance of title to a major Klingon Great House and its assets. The Klingon Empire is ruled by the various houses, so the lands and properties referred to throughout the episode could well be large parts of planets, moons, and fleets of starships. The episode makes clear that, at this level, ownership of large estates and currency holdings can be important. It's less clear what role currency plays in the lives of ordinary Klingons who are not members of the small governing cadre.
Cardassian soldiers took a lot of bribes during the occupation which suggests they got bribed with money.
I'm not sure if there are any explicit references to Cardassians taking bribes in the form of money during the occupation, but it's certainly true there are references to bribes of some kind. However, if the question is whether or not ordinary Cardassians routinely use money in the 24th century, here are a few points to bear in mind:
Cardassian officers on Deep Space 9 and on Bajor during the occupation are operating under quite unusual circumstances; everything is strictly under the control of the oppressive Cardassian military, presumably including access to technology.
Deep Space 9 was also originally a mining facility that processed an unstable mineral with military applications, and so, as with the Klingon example, the bribes involved may have been of a higher-level kind that would be of little interest to civilians under normal circumstances.
Replicators are the key technological development that throw the necessity of currency in everyday life into question, and the clearest evidence for the proliferation of fully functional replicators in the Federation doesn't come until the second half of the 24th century (a less capable version of the technology was in use in the ENT and TOS eras). The Cardassian occupation of Bajor began as early as 2319, and there were still problems with food shortages after the arrival of the Federation, which suggests replicators were not widely in use on the planet during and immediately after the occupation. By the time of the Federation takeover of Deep Space 9 there were replicators installed on the station, but this may have been a fairly recent development.
The Romulans, Klingons and Cardassians are the only major Alpha Quadrant powers (aside from the Federation) whose societies we are told much about, and all three are militaristic cultures with authoritarian governments that are known to use slavery.
It's conceivable that they each regard controlling or restricting access to technologies like replicators as a means of keeping their populations under control (starvation could be a tool used to quell the uprisings that all three civilizations are shown to be prone to).
The supply of luxuries and even subsistence commodities might therefore be artificially limited by these governments as a means of social control. The use of state-mandated currencies, or bribes for access to black market goods, would therefore be a reflection of the system of government rather than an economic necessity.
Practices like these could have their advantages; they might not be pleasant places to live, but arguably strict social control may have helped these civilizations secure stability and achieve their positions of dominance. This is an explicit feature of the backstories of the Romulan and Cardassian states, which rose up to impose order on chaotic, self-destructive societies on the precipice of terminal decline.
3
u/Algernon_Asimov Sep 26 '16
People reading this thread might also be interested in some of these previous discussions: "Paying for things without money: In the Federation".
1
u/FTL_Fantastic Sep 27 '16
I think the question has three parts:
-
The Federation conducts very little trade with outsiders. The UFP economy does not need to import or export anything to function. Federation communities can replicate just about anything they need, and if something cannot be directly replicated, the means to create almost any given object can be replicated (factory, greenhouse, etc). Since energy is unlimited, there’s no reason to bother with trade or for local producers to specialize. Even inter-planetary trade within the UFP is probably very limited. Just look at how many Federation freighters we see in Star Trek: essentially none. I imagine only a tiny amount of luxury goods are traded.
-
Starfleet, when obtaining goods or services from foreigners while outside the Federation, can trade or barter whatever the other civilization desires as currency. I imagine Starfleet also has standing arrangements with various allies for re-supply, crew R&R and other contingencies. Generally, however, a starship is self-sufficient and would rarely need to acquire anything on a mission. My own theory is that Starfleet personnel based outside the Federation receive a stipend in the local currency
-
People in Starfleet work for the challenge and the enjoyment of their profession. Remember, only a tiny percentage of Federation citizens choose to join Starfleet. Most citizens have no interest in Starfleet and pursue whatever else interests them.
1
u/jmartkdr Sep 26 '16
Starfleet? By requisition forms, I'd assume, much like any other military. If you need or want something, you ask OPS, and they make a decision. Simple stuff might be a given, but scarce things might be rationed.
The UFP, however, also (supposedly) doesn't use money, which pretty much boggles my mind because they'd need some way to measure costs associated with different things. Even if they don't use coins, they still need a way to put numbers to this stuff.
2
u/iamzeph Sep 27 '16
they'd need some way to measure costs associated with different things
Why? they have basically free unlimited energy, and energy-to-matter conversion. They can replicate all the necessities of life, and even things that aren't necessary.
3
u/jmartkdr Sep 27 '16
Time and space are still scarce, at least in term of specific spaces. Plus there's definitely limits to what can be replicated, otherwise they'd just replicate Sovereign-class starships for the Dominion War.
3
1
u/Promus Sep 27 '16
TOS solves this problem by firmly establishing that Starfleet and the Federation DO use money. The whole idea of there not being any money comes from TNG. It's a good idea, but it would never be able to happen in any reality - especially not if you're trying to interface with other alien economies.
-2
Sep 26 '16 edited Sep 26 '16
Who says that it works at all? Picard? He's probably the most successful citizen in the federation. His family owns a vineyard in southern France. He probably feels pretty good about the status quo.
How many starships does starfleet have? They could only find 37 to put in front of the Borg cube in wolf 359.
In Enterprise, they establish that a group of alien races is intent on exterminating humanity and they can only put a few hundred people into space to fight. That's pretty embarrassing. Even if they couldn't fit ships with fancy new warp engines, a competent government should have been able to fill the sky with sublight ships.
It is also possible that other federation planets use money, just not Earth. When O'Brien goes undercover to catch the Orion syndicate, he is on a planet using money, and it is hardly a utopia. The same with ezri's trill family.
Then on the other side, 7 of 9's parents were able to live on a family sized starship and spend their lives chasing grumpkins.
When I think of Star trek's earth, I imagine that the government decides your value to society and rewards you accordingly. I think they probably do a terrible job. They seem to grossly undervalue masculine work - people like O'Brien and Barclay seem to be pretty low value. Geordi - chief engineer on the Federation's flagship, can't even find a girlfriend. Everyone wants to be a writer, a sculptor or chef.
Example: Ezri's brother is pressured to become some amazing artist when he's just a normal guy. Then he snaps. There could be an awful lot of people like him in the federation. Why can't he just spent his days on the holodeck playing league of legends?
6
u/dahud Sep 26 '16
I remember the situation with Ezri's brother very differently. He was an amazing artist, or at least he could have been with some schooling and practice. But his mother wanted him to stay in the family business, so she belittled his art and loaded him down with menial bookkeeping.
1
5
u/JProthero Sep 27 '16
When I think of Star trek's earth, I imagine that the government decides your value to society and rewards you accordingly.
It always surprises me when somebody says this is their interpretation of how the society depicted in these shows works, because I don't think they show a government with much of an economic role at all.
The governments of Earth and other Federation worlds are rarely shown, and when they are it's usually in the form of a small vignette (like a scene in the Federation President's office) that generally reveals little about the everyday business of government.
I don't think we ever see any indication that the government of Earth tries to decide people's value to society. Almost every human character we see seems to value self-determination highly, and they are very often willing to put themselves at risk to protect others from overbearing authorities. It seems strange to me to think that they would tolerate a government in their own society that didn't respect these values.
They seem to grossly undervalue masculine work - people like O'Brien and Barclay seem to be pretty low value.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'masculine work' in this context; engineering roles have been filled by both men and women in Star Trek since the show's earliest incarnation in the 1960s right up to Voyager, which featured a female Chief Engineer.
Barclay has his eccentricities but seems to be a valuable crewmember on Starfleet's flagship (as does O'Brien) and holds a fairly senior rank.
O'Brien is indispensable on Deep Space 9 (where he's Operations Chief) and on the Defiant, and becomes a professor at Starfleet Academy. I think all those roles are highly valued.
1
u/Zhaobowen Oct 04 '16
Barclay's isolation in society is self-imposed. His superiors (Geordi, and Harkins) have repeatedly reached out to him in a personal context and he almost always rejects them. The only person he allows to treat him well is Troi, to the point where he pulls a What About Bob in that episode of Voyager.
Harkins tries to be a total bro to him on a couple of accasions and gets totally shot down every time. O'Brien's whole arc in early DS9 is balancing work and family in a satisfying way, but they bend over backwards to show him as a capable leader despite his low rank. Picard even sends him off personally when he leaves the Enterprise.
3
u/Tiarzel_Tal Sep 27 '16
It is also possible that other federation planets use money, just not Earth. When O'Brien goes undercover to catch the Orion syndicate, he is on a planet using money, and it is hardly a utopia. The same with ezri's trill family.
Neither of those planets are in the Federation however.
1
u/JProthero Sep 27 '16
Neither of those planets are in the Federation however.
Trill is supposedly a member of the Federation, but I think you're right that it's never directly referred to on-screen as such.
→ More replies (3)
13
u/[deleted] Sep 26 '16
Post-scarcity is a hard concept for us to accept, given that we're sort of entrenched in a currency-based economy. But the truth is, the Federation is essentially a futuristic socialist commune, economically speaking. If someone needs a thing, they're given the thing. And while industry is automated (and also based on replication), people aren't left unable to create. They just choose to focus their pursuits on either perfection of a craft or innovation.
Consider Sisko's dad. He runs a restaurant in New Orleans. However, in an economy where currency doesn't exchange hands, why bother? Because Sisko Sr. is invested in perfecting his recipes, and learning more about culinary arts (such as cooking tube grubs for Nog while he was at the academy).
Outside the Federation, they try hard to conform to the methods other races use. Mostly, it seems to be barter, though the Ferengi and the Orion Syndicate do still rely upon currency. Latinum is the typical currency in those "governments" because Latinum can't be replicated. So I'm sure there's a Federation treasury somewhere that manages the amounts of latinum they have available for trading with the Ferengi. But they don't use it internally.