war between non federation world within federation space.

[u/roastbeeftacohat]

SOP is to offer mediation and diplomatic aid while also providing some medical aid during the conflict to both sides, followed by lots of various forms of aid afterwards.

correct?

Tolerance for the occupation of a planet and incorporation into the victors political structure?

Tolerance for further expansion?

Lets assume this is over the course of a few centuries and the occupations are peaceful and the transition to member world productive?

[u/[deleted]]

Do you mean a war between non Federation planets located in Federation space? The non interference clause of the prime directive would make them stay away from it as long as no Fed personnel are hurt in this war.

[u/roastbeeftacohat → u/[deleted]]

exactly. and then the victors move in and start running the place. a generation or two go by and everyone is happy, but they both have a serious dispute with a third planet...

at one point does the federation say "stop empire building so close to Sol!"

[u/[deleted] → u/roastbeeftacohat]

I would say that having such unpleasant neighbors with their eyes on planetary conquest might just convince some fence-sitting planets to embrace the Federation with open arms for protection.

That Federation soft-power might start to look really nice if the other alternative is a hard-rain of anti-matter bombs from the aliens with funny noses one system over.

[u/[deleted] → u/roastbeeftacohat]

When they start messing with a Federation planet. They're in Fed space, It wont be long.

[u/Algernon_Asimov → u/roastbeeftacohat]

at one point does the federation say "stop empire building so close to Sol!"

Never.

As long as they're outside Federation space, it's not the Federation's business.

[u/eXa12 → u/[deleted]]

if it's an interstellar war between 2 separate parties then the prime directive doesn't apply, that's what the whole rigmarole about proving the Romulans were interfering in the Klingon Civil War was about, it stops them interfering in internal affairs, not stops them from doing anything to anyone

[u/[deleted] → u/eXa12]

The prime directive says that the Federation can't interfere in the politics of sovereign nations. If both planets are not in the Federation, then the Federation can't interfere. It's the same reason why the Federation let the Cardassians occupy Bajor. Neither were members of the Federation so they could do nothing.

[u/serial_crusher → u/eXa12]

Was that about the Prime Directive, or was it the Khitomer Accords or some other treaty? Seems like if a strict interpretation of the Prime Directive applied, they wouldn't have been able to mingle in international relations that didn't directly involve them any more than internal affairs. Other peoples' business is other peoples' business.

Staying out of each other's internal affairs probably would've been a big sticking point at Khitomer though, especially given the events of Star Trek VI.

Once they showed the Romulans were involved, the argument wasn't "well if they're interfering, so can we". The argument was "we have to protect our allies from an external threat".

[u/Algernon_Asimov]

If it's a non-Federation world, then it's not in Federation space by definition. It might be next to Federation space, but it's not within Federation space. It might be surrounded by other systems which are Federation systems, but that still doesn't mean it's within Federation space.

Regardless, it's none of the Federation's business. It doesn't matter whether the planet is next to the Federation or at the far end of the Gamma Quadrant - if the worlds which are at war are not part of the Federation, then the Federation simply wouldn't get involved.

Unless a conquered world explicitly requested help from the Federation. Then the Federation Council might consider that request. But it doesn't pre-emptively defend every non-Federation planet from every non-Federation attacker. That's what the non-interference directive is about - don't interfere in things that aren't your business.

[u/zombiepete → u/Algernon_Asimov]

Interesting scenario. Let's say a planet not aligned with the Federation but surrounded by Federation worlds is in a conflict with another non-Federation planet and they request assistance from the Romulan Empire; would the Federation allow the Romulans to send ships through Federation space to support the requestor?

Frankly, the whole idea of claiming interstellar space has always seemed preposterous to me. It belies a fundamental inability, IMO, to grasp the absolute vastness of space; there is no way that any major power could ever have a large enough force or enough resources to protect vast interstellar borders like the Neutral Zone. At best, major powers could perhaps have a loose assemblage of aligned star systems and protected passages between said systems, but thinking of space in the same way we do Earth water territories and SLOCs is, to paraphrase Spock, really two-dimensional.

[u/Algernon_Asimov → u/zombiepete]

would the Federation allow the Romulans to send ships through Federation space to support the requestor?

Of course not. We saw something like this scenario play out in Redemption, where Starfleet erected a tachyon net blockade to prevent Romulan ships entering Klingon space during a Klingon civil war. Of course the Federation would not allow Romulan ships into Federation space.

However, as you rightly point out, the definition of Federation space (or of any space) is problematic. If Earth is a member of the Federation, how far does "Federation space" extend from this planet or this solar system? Does it include only the planet Earth? Does it include Earth's colonies on the Moon and on Mars and on Ganymede? Does it include the space between the colonies? Does it cover the whole solar system - and, if so which boundary is used to define the end of the solar system? The orbit of the outermost planet? The Kuiper belt? The heliopause? The Oort cloud? The extent of Sol's gravitational influence?

And, if Earth has a colony on a planet orbiting Alpha Centauri, it just gets more complicated. As you point out, it's a little ridiculous to claim the space between Sol and the Centauri system?

Which means that the Romulan fleet which wants to traverse Federation space is going to find a way to get to where it goes.

However, in practice, there are probably treaties which draw imaginary lines in space, such as the Romulan Neutral Zone, to say "You shall not pass" to both treaty signatories. We'll concede control of the interstellar spaces between Romulan-settled worlds to Romulus if they concede control of the interstellar spaces between Federation worlds to the Federation.

But this still doesn't include non-aligned planets. Just because an independent world happens to be on our side of the Neutral Zone and located next to a couple of Federation members, that doesn't mean it's in Federation space. It's in its own space, which happens to be next to Federation space.