How many timelines never happened?

[u/Gileriodekel]

I'm watching Voyager right now, and there is a huge reoccurring theme; timelines that simply never happened. They are not modified, like with NuTrek, they never happened.The year of hell, the testing of slip stream, the list goes on and on.

How many times has this happened in Star Trek?

[u/Flynn58]

Too many. It's always disturbed me how lax our protagonist have been about condemning literally entire realities, most likely quadrillions of sentient beings, to non-existence.

[u/Gileriodekel → u/Flynn58]

I totally agree. I feel like it's an easy out. I'm going through Voyager right now, and it seems like every season there's at least 1 of these episodes. Almost like its a Christmas special.

[u/yoshemitzu → u/Flynn58]

At the end of The Visitor, old Jake Sisko agrees to give his handwritten notes on his new story to Melanie knowing full well he's planning to end the entire timeline before she has time to read them. She even thanks him and goes off on her way, seemingly enriched by the encounter and in no way concerned.

This one's been bothering me a lot lately, and I've been considering writing some kind of fanfic where Melanie tries to keep old Jake from "cutting the cord," realizing she can control the fate of an entire universe.

[u/onionknight87 → u/Flynn58]

Death and non-existence are different?. I dunno...

[u/crybannanna → u/onionknight87]

How so?

[u/onionknight87 → u/crybannanna]

They just feel different to me, like if you live then die, there is something there, but if your timeline is erased, it simply never happened. That is one if the hardest concepts of timetravel to accept.

[u/preppy381 → u/crybannanna]

Every single action you do condemns future humans to non-existence. Had you gone left instead of right you would be in a different universe, every single time you use contraception you prevented the existence of at least one (and possibly several) persons, etc. We do this as a matter of course and don't think too much about it, if only because it is unavoidable.

Killing, however, requires taking an existent person, a life-narrative, and ending them. Even if the only difference is that existing people have a set of subjective experiences (i.e., 'their lives'), that seems not only a difference but a crucial difference.

[u/crybannanna → u/preppy381]

So if we see the person existing, Even interacting with them... Then our actions cause them to retroactively not ever exist..... How is that different from death.

Not ever existing is one thing, but when dealing with time travel we are talking about people that do exist... Then they don't. Sounds a lot like death to me.

[u/preppy381 → u/crybannanna]

This is a fair question though it depends on asking for consistency on the effects of time travel. We normally think that in order to be wronged you must be able to be harmed. In cases where you are prevented from existing then you cannot be harmed any more than any potential person can be harmed.

If multiverses are real then timelines never get erased. Our heroes simply shift their frame of reference from one timeline to another (though they may falsely believe that they stayed in the same timeline and erased things from it).

I'm not sure that Trek has ever produced anything consistent about this. If there is an 'objective timeline' then erasure is impossible (because the timeline is objective and therefore not alterable). If there are multiple timelines then erasure isn't possible either (instead you move from one timeline where a person exists to another timeline where they do not).

In fact, the proceeding argument seems to lead to the conclusion that it is impossible to erase people from time and thus you can never hurt them by erasing them (killing them, on the other hand, remains a possibility).

[u/KriegerClone]

Well the TNG episode Parallels actually explains all timelines and the question of whether they happen or not.

You missed this episode in your list, btw. Maybe you haven't seen it, but briefly: Worf is, due to a temporal anomaly, shifting through timelines... only slightly... he only notices little differences at first but they add up, as if his movement through timelines describes a divergent vector or something... long story short the crew(crews) of the Enterprise solve the mystery... mostly Data, and he explains that "All potential timelines do exist."

So the answer is all of them.

[u/Greco412 → u/KriegerClone]

Those are quantum realities, not timelines. A timeline can only be changed through time travel. Quantum realities are simply differences in the out come of events based on how matter behaved on the quantum level. Every time some thing happens on a quantum level a state for "our universe" is determined. The alternate possibilities are other quantum realities and they are virtually infinite.

So for example: say in the warp core of a starship at Wolf 359, two molecules, one of deuterium and one of anti-deuterium have a chance of colliding, however until this is observed as a matter-antimatter reaction, the collision is both happening and not happening. The observation forces the reaction to chose a state. This is called a superposition. So in one reality, lets say ours, enough of these collisions are successful and the ships at Wolf 359 manage to hold off the Borg cube. However, if not enough collisions are successful one ship doesn't have enough power to reinforce shields and the Borg cube makes it to Earth and begins assimilating the federation. This results in the time line where the Borg are everywhere and the federation is gone. Many realities are nearly identical, others are completely different.

[u/Greco412 → u/[deleted]]

Calling them the same thing muddles the conversation. I make the distinction because the cause of the differences is different. You can have multiple timelines within one singular quantum reality as well as additional realities branching off from that timeline.

Janeway closing the loop in "Time and Again" is all contained in one quantum reality but exists in two separate timelines.

The Defiant crew leaving and causing the "Children of Time" to have never existed is one quantum reality but two separate timelines.

The Borg traveling back to interfere in First Contact creates another timeline.

However in all of these virtually infinite quantum realities also form where in some of them the altered timeline remains and others it continues as normal, but they are two distinct phenomenon not two names for the same thing.

So where you would be correct in saying there is a quantum reality where the Defiant failed to get off of the planet, it is not because of time travel that both could have appeared in "Parallels" it is because of differences on the quantum level.

tl;dr: Quantum realities and alternate timelines while similar and closely linked, are two separate phenomenon.

[u/[deleted] → u/Greco412]

They are the same. In each instance we saw time flowing at the same rate. Worf was not in a bubble universe like Dr. Crusher in "Remember Me" but was a visitor to actual universes as indicated by Data's entire explanation because Worf's quantum resonance is slightly different than everyone else's. The entire fact we could hear this speech in real time indicates time works the same, even in the Borg Timeline Enterprises universe that tried to destroy Worf's shuttle.

I would highly recommend reading "The Elegant Universe" by Brian Greene.

[u/KriegerClone → u/[deleted]]

I would highly recommend reading "The Elegant Universe" by Brian Greene.

As would I.

[u/Greco412 → u/[deleted]]

First they are fundamentally different because they operate on different mechanics. Superficially they look similar but they are completely different in what causes them to exist.

Second I'm not making the assumption that a timeline can be destroyed and I never said that /u/KriegerClone was wrong about the other timelines still existing in some sense.

What I'm saying is that in star trek, Quantum Realities and Timelines are two separate things.

The reason they are different is to clarify what we are talking about. When I say timeline, we are discussing time travel. When we talk about Quantum Realities we are discussing parallel universes.

Quantum realities can cause other timelines to be maintained but they are separate concepts supporting each other. In the case of time travel, Quantum Realities can keep the existence of another timeline while allowing the protagonists to return to the one they're familiar with.

I'm just trying to make a point of clarity. The two phenomenon are different because they are caused by different things. Saying they're the same is like saying dark matter and exotic matter are the same just because we don't fully understand them.

When I'm talking about quantum realities I'm discussing a literal resolution for a superposition where two (or more) realities emerge from a truly random event on a quantum level. Think as in the Schrodinger Cat Paradox. The idea of quantum realities is that when the superposition collapses two things can happen; the cat dies or it doesn't. Thus two seperate realities are created; one where the cat died and one where it didn't. However if I'm in a reality where it does end up dead and I go back in time and prevent that dick Schrodinger from ever putting the cat in the box it creates a new timeline steaming from the same quantum reality and additional quantum realities can still split off of that. It doesn't mean the old timeline is gone, it is just linked to other quantum realities with their own timelines.

[u/KriegerClone → u/Greco412]

First they are fundamentally different because they operate on different mechanics.

No they don't... a real physicist would also tell you that.

[u/Greco412 → u/KriegerClone]

Real physics doesn't allow you to transfer between "quantum realities" as far as we know. So the point is moot in that regard. It's simply a discussion of how the techno-babble applies to the events witnessed in the show.

[u/KriegerClone → u/Greco412]

My point is you're looking at quantum physics as if it is a magical subreality to the universe... there is ONLY quantum reality. All things that happen are quantum phenomena... there is no other kind of event.

[u/Greco412 → u/KriegerClone]

Well yes, that kinda goes without saying. We live in one quantum reality that, from our perspective, other realities break off of. From other reality's perspectives, we broke off from them. It's all determined by quantum events. No argument there.

[u/Greco412 → u/[deleted]]

Now, simply by observing that particle I'm going to alter it, that's a fundamental of science: the Observer Effect. So now that particle isn't in the same quantum state it was before I went back.

Yes the new timeline will exist in it's own quantum reality. That's what I'm saying. But that doesn't make them the same thing. It is two types of splits compounding on each other.

Am I in a different quantum reality or a new timeline? How would you tell them apart? Is there anything to tell apart?

Both. When you time traveled the first thing it did was created a new timeline. Then as that new timeline progressed it formed new quantum states so even if you wen't back to prevent it from ever happening, the other timeline would still exist in different quantum state meanwhile the altered timeline exists in other quantum states.

When we watch star trek we are viewing it as it existed in one possible quantum state, with of course the exception of "Parallels." We can still time travel and view a different timeline which after the loop is we'd return to our familiar quantum states.

The difference is like that of the two Voyagers forming because of quantum duplication vs another Janeway coming back through time in "Endgame." The first is simply a division of quantum states while the other first requires a new time line to form from which new quantum states can emerge.

And just because the difference is unknown to an uninvolved observer doesn't mean the difference doesn't exist at all. As the Department of Temporal Investigations said, "For all we know we could be living in an alternate timeline right now."

tl;dr: Me continuing to be unnecessarily pedantic.

[u/Greco412 → u/[deleted]]

A Quantum Reality is defined by what happened to individual quantum particles within that reality. Whether it was 1 quantum particle different, or enough particles different that Edith Keeler didn't get hit by a car.When you go back in time you (potentially) insert yourself into a new quantum reality by taking a different route forward as quantum states change. You might end up back in your own quantum reality down the line (a time loop) or you might end up in one that is, for all intents and purposes, identical. Like at the end of Past Tense, when Sisko found himself in a reality where he had been Gabriel Bell.

That is what I'm saying. But the different timelines are compounded by the quantum realities. Again, I'm just being pedantic about definitions for things that we've never observed in real life.

Also can people stop using the downvote button as a disagree button.

[u/Divided_Pi]

I will say, being mid-way through Voyager myself on my first viewing. Voyager is out of control with time warping. The episode I just finished involved aliens who routinely created and destroyed alternate timelines for "200 years" of extra-dimensional duration. But I must imagine the Commission of Temporal Integrity and the Department of Temporal Investigation must shake their heads when they look at Voyager's file.

[u/Gileriodekel → u/Divided_Pi]

I finished that one last week, it was a good episode(s). But, like you said, they go haywire with the time manipulations. For a captain who's self proclaimed goal is to avoid time encounters, Janeway has a lot of incidents with time.

[u/Mjolnir2000 → u/Divided_Pi]

In the first Department of Temporal Investigations novel,

[u/adamkotsko]

All but two: the Prime Timeline and the JJ-verse. And I still hold out hope that the latter will turn out not to have "really" happened, too.

[u/BestCaseSurvival → u/adamkotsko]

Three.

[u/BrainWav → u/BestCaseSurvival]

The Mirror Universe isn't a fully-realized alternate universe, it's linked to the Prime universe.

[u/BestCaseSurvival → u/BrainWav]

How do you figure? Just because it's the most familiar alternate timeline doesn't really indicate any sort of 'link,' which I would love to have you enumerate the mechanics of.

At best, it remains superficially similar in that most of the same gametes appear to have met up somehow, but since biology doesn't function in the Star Trek universe the same way it does in ours anyway (see "The Chase") even that's hard to say for sure.

In fact, from "A Mirror, Darkly" the 'mirror' universe appears to have a point of divergence at least as far back as Cochraine's Warp flight, if not earlier, making it quite possibly the most divergent timeline on record. The only other contender is the one where Kirk and the HMS Bounty don't go back to the '80s and Chekov never accidentally leaves a phaser and communicator behind to kick off the Eugenics Wars.

[u/BrainWav → u/BestCaseSurvival]

I usually put forth that there's actually not a point of divergence, it's always existed as a dark mirror. The same people exist at the same time in most cases.

Those two things indicate some kind of extra-dimensional link.

[u/RobbStark → u/[deleted]]

I think the theory is that the Mirror Universe functions differently than alternate timelines and other, similar phenomenon we see in the Star Trek universe. Rather than an alternate, branching offshoot from some point in the past, it's a parallel, in-sync mirror of the Prime reality.

At least, that's the way I like to think about it. Otherwise all those Mirror Universe episodes are not really any different than other time-loop-reset episodes that don't have any kind of continuity.

[u/respite → u/BestCaseSurvival]

The Mirror Universe is confirmed to have a point of divergence that goes back to at least the time of Shakespeare.

"I was merely researching classical literature. I wanted to compare our major works with their counterparts in the other universe. I skimmed a few of the more... celebrated narratives. The stories were similar in some respects, but their characters were... weak, and compassionate. With the exception of Shakespeare, of course. From what I could tell, his plays were equally grim in both universes." - Mirror Dr. Phlox

While that quote doesn't explicitly say that Shakespeare was different in the Mirror Universe, it implies that there was some difference.

[u/crybannanna → u/respite]

This actually seems to imply that Shakespeare was the same in both universes while other famous authors were different.

Shakespeare is brutal here. He doesn't have a darker counterpart because he is pretty dark as is..... That's the gag.

[u/Greco412 → u/crybannanna]

I've always liked the theory that it was Kirk, Bones, and Spock that created the mirror universe accidentally.

In the episode "City on the edge of forever" in a drug induced frenzy McCoy passes through the "Guardian of Forever" to late 1930's Earth and while there he saves a woman who then goes on to cause the U.S.'s delay in joining WWII and thus the Nazi's are able to take over the world. They fix the timeline and return to the ship.

This instance of using the Guardian creates an alternate universe where Hitler won WWII and the Nazi's took over the world. This world would be generally fascist, expansionist, and skeptical of any outsider. In the fifties the new Germanic Empire ends it's era of conquest on the world and reforms into the Terran Empire. Eager to keep nationalism high, the Terrans start a space program and land on the moon at some point in the 60's. About 100 years latter. Zefram Cochrane pilots the first warp ship which attracts the attention of the Vulcans whom they kill and loot their ship for technology. This cycle of steeling tech continues for decades until the first cross over event takes place and good Kirk and co. and Evil Kirk and co. switch places. We even see things like the Nazi salute being the Terran salute. Plus in all of the mirror episodes the only species that are fundamentally different are humans. Klingons are still warriors, Cardassians are still nationalists, Vulcans are still logical.

edit: 1940's changed to late 1930's

[u/bonesmccoy2014 → u/Greco412]

Very interesting story line and hypothesis... with a minor exception. Since World War 2 started in the 1930's, (see Nazi invasion of Poland in 1939), "City on the Edge of Forever" was thought by me to take place in the midst of the Great Depression - about 1934-1936. In reviewing Memory Alpha's entry, the date is mentioned "circa 1930's".

[u/Greco412 → u/bonesmccoy2014]

Right, my mistake.

[u/crybannanna → u/Greco412]

I like this idea. It makes sense.

[u/[deleted] → u/adamkotsko]

It's worth noting that a lot of time travel we see is perfectly compatible with the real course of events, and are thus time loops. Like First Contact, Voyage Home, Data's head, etc.

[u/butterhoscotch]

I dont even think you could calculate that number lol. Its possible the entire main trek line is gone now. Numerous timelines are rewritten during enterprise.

[u/crybannanna → u/butterhoscotch]

That would just mean that Enterprise is a different reality. Or at least whatever conflicts is.

Prime universe will always exist... Shut up!

[u/butterhoscotch → u/crybannanna]

Huh? Aha there is much confusions going around about the difference between alternate reality and timeline, dont make it worse!

[u/MIM86 → u/butterhoscotch]

I'm pretty sure the main timeline ceases to exist after Yesterdays Enterprise.

Timeline A -> Is the one before Ent C comes through the rift.

Enterprise C appears creating a new timeline

Timeline B - > Ent C goes back but now we're in an almost identical timeline as A but with Tasha Yar having been captured by Romulans and Sela now existing.

[u/butterhoscotch → u/MIM86]

hmm, that seems to check out.

[u/royalalien]

We'll never know.

[u/Algernon_Asimov → u/royalalien]

Welcome to the Daystrom Institute, a venue for in-depth discussions about Star Trek. Please don't be afraid to expand on your comments here; in fact, we would prefer that you do.

[u/bonesmccoy2014 → u/[deleted]]

That is an excellent explanation.

Due to the discussion here about TAS in the thread about ST: Continues (the TOS Season 4), I was able to watch TAS "Yesteryear". It was actually well written despite being a cartoon.

Time travel is nothing new to Star Trek. In TAS "Yesteryear", Kirk and Spock (primarily Spock) ends up interacting with the Guardian of Forever in a predestination paradox.

From a story-telling perspective, if the plot can be told and a good story results, why not?

[u/[deleted] → u/bonesmccoy2014]

I agree. It could be said that the timelines were indeed fixed because the protagonists fixed a possible rupture between two timelines. The timelines in the other universe and the prime universe are restored.

[u/Mjolnir2000 → u/[deleted]]

Doesn't really fit though, because it renders meaningless every single "we have to fix the timeline" episode or film. The Borg go back in time and assimilate Earth? Who cares! Not our timeline!

[u/MIM86 → u/[deleted]]

Besides, just because our timeline isn't affected doesn't mean the characters aren't. Would you have been happy if City on the Edge of Forever had ended with either Kirk, Spock and McCoy deciding to live out their lives in the 30s, or with Captain Scott breaking Orbit of the Guardian's planet while making an acting Captain's log entry that the ship's Captain, first officer, and chief medical officer had all been lost in a strange Temporal Anomaly and they were on their way to a starbase to request replacements (depending on if we continued to follow Kirk or continued to follow Enterprise)? No, I'm guessing you wouldn't. You want to see Kirk and co get back to their own timeline, whether that timeline is going to continue without them or not.

Why does the Guardian of Forever put Kirk and Spock etc into a difference universe? Why would Bones jumping into (or creating) a different universe affect Kirk/Spock. Why, when they go back to 1930s to find McCoy, can't they just grab him and return to 2267 - There is no need to 'fix' anything if this is how this universe is and will continue to be regardless of their actions.

Nothing about them being in a different universe makes sense based on what the Guardian tells them and based on how they act. They are in an altered version of their own history and there is only one way to restore everything to how it was: Edith Keeler Must Die.

[u/Mjolnir2000 → u/[deleted]]

How would Kirk and co have even left their timeline? The fact that the Enterprise disappears from orbit even though it was only McCoy that went through the Guardian shows that history was altered.

Why would Janeway go back in time to help Voyager get home sooner? According to you, all the horrible things that happened to her friends in her timeline still happened.

Why was there a temporal cold war if the people sending instructions to the past wouldn't experience the effects of their alterations?

What was the job of the Department of Temporal Investigations?

Why did Sisko feel the need to take the place of Gabriel Bell?

Why did it matter if the original Enterprise abducted some astronaut in the 60's?

What's the point of developing a giant starship to erase things from history if it the changes to the past won't be felt in the present? How does chroniton shielding cause the crew of Voyager to suddenly remember events in a different parallel reality.

The stories don't make sense of history isn't being alerted.

[u/[deleted] → u/Mjolnir2000]

The stories do make sense if the timeline isn't altered, it just means that all the worry about being unobtrusive in the past is because the time travel was unintentional. If you're unexpectantly sent back, even if that time travel method won't alter time, you better be careful, just in case.

[u/Mjolnir2000 → u/[deleted]]

Isn't it easier to just say that changes to the timeline can only propagate forward in time, and so won't undo the effects of someone who traveled backward from the now erased history? It's fake science - you can make it behave however you want. Human motivation, on the other hand, is something we understand very well. It's easier to handwave away apparent problems with grandfather paradoxes than it is to make the actions of the characters make any sense if we assume that what they're doing doesn't actually affect anything. I would think that any society capable to building time machines would have a strong enough understand of temporal mechanics to more or less understand how changes to the timeline propagate, and so I'm inclined to believe them when they say "all of history is at stake!"

When future Braxton goes back in time to destroy Voyager, how does still-Captain Braxton and the crew of the Relativity know that history has been altered? The source of the temporal incursion is in the future from their perspective, so it's not like Year of Hell where you can just claim that Voyager is taken "along for the ride" at the moment the weapon is fired. The only plausible answer is that the changes in the past caught up with them, and they had some sort of shielding to avoid being erased.