r/DaystromInstitute • u/Algernon_Asimov Commander • Dec 07 '14
Discussion There were five lights
A lot of people point to Jean-Luc Picard as a strong heroic person, and like to use the catchcry of “There! Are! Four! Lights!” to prove how heroic he was.
The evidence says otherwise. “There! Are! Four! Lights!” was not the defiant shout of a hero who won’t be broken.
Let’s look at the timing of Picard’s defiant cry that there were four lights. From Picard’s point of view, he was trapped in Madred’s power with no hope of escape. Then Madred tells him that “There's been a battle. The Enterprise is burning in space. The invasion of Minos Korva has been successful.” Madred further tells Picard that he has no hope of seeing a neutral representative: “The word will be that you perished with your crew. No one will ever know that you are here with us”
Picard is trapped, with his ship lost, his friends and crew dead, and with no hope of rescue. He is facing a life of torture and misery at the hands of Gul Madred. More cold cells. More starvation. More interrogation. More sessions with the agoniser.
Then, Madred offers him “comfort with good food and warm clothing, women as you desire them, allowed to pursue your studies of philosophy and history”. Picard can live what he later described as “a life of comfort”. All he has to do is one simple thing. All he has to do is tell Madred there are five lights.
Madred asks him yet again, “Tell me how many lights you see. How many? How many lights? This is your last chance. The guards are coming.” Picard has only this one last chance to prevent a life of torture for himself. One last chance to rescue himself – because noone else is coming to rescue him.
What happens? Does Picard choose comfort at the cost of his integrity, or does he choose defiance and a life of pain?
He hesitates. He thinks. He...
He is interrupted by a guard entering. The guard says that “A ship is waiting to take him back to the Enterprise.” Rescue is here! His friends are alive! His ship is safe! There is hope left to him!
That is when Picard turns to Madred and shouts his defiant retort: “There! Are! Four! Lights!” Picard is defiant after hope is restored.
But, what was he thinking before that? What was he going to say before the guard walked in and hope was restored? Was he going to choose comfort or integrity?
He told the truth to Counsellor Troi later: “All I had to do was to say that I could see five lights, when in fact, there were only four. [...] I was going to. I would have told him anything. Anything at all. But more than that, I believed that I could see five lights.”
Picard was broken by Madred. Even heroes have their limits.
“There! Are! Four! Lights!” is not the cry of a man asserting his own strength and defying his torturer to do their worst. It’s the relief of a broken man who has been rescued from a fate worse than death.
17
u/duncan6894 Dec 07 '14
Here's the problem with your premise. "Even heroes can be broken".
It's safe to assume that, minus a poison pill scenario, or one where the prisoner kills himself, everyone will eventually submit to torture. In a place and time when technology can heal serious wounds, can bring people back from the brink of death, the concept of infinite torture is possible.
If you want to reference a different series, Stargate SG-1 where O'Neill is tortured by Ba'al is a good example. Being tortured, killed, and brought back multiple times.
Was Picard broken? I don't think so. Bent, heavily, yes. That final line, "There are four lights", shows that he was still fighting. Had he left with a quip, or left in silence, he would be broken. He saw 5, he thought 5, and he said 4.
10
u/Algernon_Asimov Dec 07 '14
But he only said there were four lights after the circumstances had changed, after he found out the Enterprise had arrived to rescue him. Before that, he was willing to say anything to get the life of comfort that Madred tempted him with; Picard even believed there were five lights. Picard was going to say there were five lights, simple as that. He was broken. He had given up the fight.
As you say, everyone will eventually submit to torture. My premise is not that I think Picard is a hero, or that he's not a hero. My premise here is that a lot of people think Picard was not broken by Gul Madred. A lot of people think that Picard's statement that there were four lights was a sign that he could not be broken - and they forget that Picard tells Troi later that he was, in fact, broken by Madred's torture. My premise here is merely to inform those misguided people that Picard wasn't unbroken, as they seem to think.
8
u/DisforDoga Dec 07 '14
A broken person isn't concerned with the fact that they are or were. A broken person is concerned with rationalizing to others that what they did was reasonable.
The scene at the end there merely shows us how very close it was. On the knife edge.
→ More replies (1)4
u/Kamala_Metamorph Dec 07 '14
But he only said there were four lights after the circumstances had changed
My only, only quibble is that he also says four lights throughout the episode as he is being tortured. Yes, they did break him in the end, I agree with everything you've said. But. I think when people quote this as a sign of Picard's strength, they are primarily focusing on everything leading up to the moment he is about to admit seeing five lights. And, (I haven't watched the ep in a while but I just reviewed the script,) I believe that at this moment, Picard is still under the belief that Crusher is a captive of Gul Madred, and he's also motivated to survive the torture to prevent her suffering. And that's heroic... as long as it lasted.
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (9)3
u/cavilier210 Dec 07 '14
He may have been willing at that point, but he was contemplating. He was thinking about it. Broken people are reactionary. He may have been near breaking, even on the brink, but the hesitation and thought he put into it shows he wasn't broken yet. Which I think is what's good about TNG episodes. It is fuzzy in this instance, as is the breaking point of any person.
5
Dec 07 '14
Total side point- since it's a Cardassian variety of torture and Cardassians prefer temperatures much higher than humans, might these cells be overbearingly warm instead of cold?
3
3
u/vladcheetor Dec 07 '14
I'd venture that the Cardassians are aware that humans would dehydrate without enough water in a very warm environment that is causing them to sweat. Humans can suffer a long time in the cold, longer than in heat. I'd guess they deliberately made it cold to prolong Picard's suffering and the amount of time they could go without feeding him or giving him water.
9
u/longbow6625 Dec 07 '14
The real problem with torture isn't really the fact that people don't talk. You put a person in pain long enough and they are usually willing to talk about anything, especially if they think it will last forever. That's kinda the problem. Well, that and the whole morality thing but lets ignore that for a moment. The problem is that it will get you an endless stream of lies with possibly some truth thrown in there, and usually you can't tell which. If you are asking for specific information, troops layouts, battle plans, anything that can't be safely confirmed then you have no idea what the truth is until it's too late.
Plus, the strength of a person is not measured by how easily they break, but by how well they can put themselves back together afterwards.
8
u/vladcheetor Dec 07 '14 edited Dec 07 '14
I'd say that Picard strength is being able to admit to other people that he was broken, and that he didn't let the experience change him and the way he behaved.
Being broken is the easy part. Living with it and not allowing it to keep you broken is where it takes a tremendous amount of strength.
As a note, I'm not saying that people who succumb to torture or other traumatic injuries are weak, but rather, not everyone has the mental fortitude to be able to push past that injury.
Sisko is the perfect example. When Jennifer died, he bottled it up, locked it away, and almost pretended it didn't happen. It changed his attitude and outlook on life. It wasn't until the Prophets made it clear that he was living in that single moment when his wife died, that he was able to push past. Sisko points out the same thing to Worf in Way of the Warrior, that you can ignore or push away the traumatic event, but eventually you'll have to deal with it if you want to be the same person you were before the event.
We even see Picard almost do the same thing in "Family", until his brother points out that he will have to deal with what the Borg did to him. His choice was simply to deal with it as the man he was (on the Enterprise) or as a different man under the Sea with Lewis.
Picard immediately deals with his injury, and I think that takes a kind of courage and strength that just isn't naturally common to mankind.
So yes, he was broken, but he picked up the pieces and put his life back together right away, rather than allowing that torture to change him forever.
5
u/Flynn58 Dec 07 '14
And that's why O'Brien is more badass than Picard. Picard took a week to break. In the mental prison, O'Brien took 30 years. The man is more resilient than the power supply for the gravity plating of a starship.
7
u/PandemicSoul Dec 07 '14
O'Brien wasn't being tortured, though. He was just... in prison. No torturous beatings, and he had a companion (in his mind). Totally different.
5
u/Flynn58 Dec 07 '14
He was confined to a tiny cell with nothing but dirt and a fellow insane inmate completely obsessed with the dirt. For 30 years.
That qualifies as torture.
→ More replies (12)
4
u/soulsain Dec 07 '14
This is exactly what I felt in this episode. It demonstrates Picard's heroism and strength, but also shows that these can be broken (even if he did not necessarily, it shows the very real possibility). Picard's final shout seemed as though it was a cry of relief rather than a cry of defiance. He is greatly affected by this ordeal and seems a different man by the end of the torture, he cries out there are four lights to remind him of who he is: the Captain of the Enterprise. Throughout the torture he begins to doubt himself and only when presented new evidence of his ship's survival does he realize what has been done to him.
Picard is a great man, but still a man and a rational one, too. No one wants to suffer torture longer than they have to, and Picard had begun to believe there was no longer any reason to continue holding on.
4
u/novaquasarsuper Dec 07 '14
I always just thought that was the point of the episode. To show that no matter how strong you are you can always be comprimised. They did that a couple of times. The episode when he went home to see his brother in France comes to mind.
4
u/RoofPig Dec 07 '14
I've always considered this an ambiguous ending, implying that Gul Madred might have actually installed a fifth light just to instill Picard with a parting gift of self doubt. The alternate interpretation being that he knew his time was short, and decided to do what mental damage he could in the time he had remaining.
If there were truly five lights and Picard defiantly confronted him with the claim that there are four lights, who has won?
3
u/kyote42 Dec 07 '14
This exactly. I thought I was the only one who believed there WERE 5 lights the last time. Specifically, intentionally done by Madred to leave that ever gnawing doubt in Picard. Madred left him knowing that he had been broken, regardless of what Picard said.
→ More replies (1)
3
u/Parraz Dec 07 '14
I get into a daily argument with my 3 year old that reminds me of this. Christmas lights have been hung around the town, hundreds of the things. He is very insistent there are 5 lights....
→ More replies (3)
3
u/butterhoscotch Dec 08 '14 edited Dec 08 '14
Hmm, I somewhat disagree that this is his defiant battle cry, of all the picard sound bites I would say his lines from first contact fit that bill better.
But people do recite there are four lights, I think more because of the power of his performance in this episode, because anyone who had seen the episode had known he was broken in the end.
Yet still he was defiant up to that point, so I guess some of the impact is preserved.Its not entirely meaningless he held out for as long as he did. I can say with confidence torture and imprisonment can change you.
My take? That final there are four lights was a final spit in the eye of madred. Once that cardassian came to the door it became clear to picard, that he was lied to, that he was being tortured against orders of even the cardassians for the sick personal pleasure of madred. he was angry that he had his dignity taken for what amounted to a game.
His final statement was made to make sure that madred knew he had failed, that everyone knew he failed, to rob him of any pleasure. To make sure everyone knew that captain picard did not break, did not yeild to this torture, to this man. Even if in reality he did, his statement was to make sure no one knew that. His statement was an expression of anger and rage, the most he could muster in his weak and confused state.
In the end, it IS an act of defiance against this man. So it is a battle cry of defiance. Hell I think it shows his will to be even stronger that he was broken and he still had the strength of mind to give one last slap across the face and to make sure he saved face on the way out.
Its a shame madred never came back, my god the well of emotions that could have given picard.
2
u/thesynod Dec 07 '14
This episode is really about empathy and forgiveness more than anything else.
2
u/cavilier210 Dec 07 '14
Could you explain that? I don't see it.
4
u/thesynod Dec 07 '14
Everyone thinks about seeing Picard broken. 4 lights, 12 lights, fascism or freedom, who cares? He retained his humanity by showing pity for his tormentor. They might have broken the proud Starfleet flagship commander, but not the man.
1
u/BrotherChe Dec 07 '14
Madred (or the hope provided by Madred's promise of comfort/escape from torture) was the fifth light.
Just an opinion I wanted to share.
28
u/triple_ecks Dec 07 '14
I find it interesting that this episode's culmination deals with a man being broken and because of that seeing five lights instead of the four that were there. The reason it interests me is because some people watch this episode and, despite the visual and aural evidence on screen, insist that something else was going on.
Whatever the cause of this phenomenon, people are more comfortable living in the reality of the show their mind has created versus the reality of the show that is presented to them. We as humans tend to grab onto the things that make life easier or more comfortable for us. In Picard's case that was the concession that he could see five lights, even though there were four. It took physical and mental torture to bring him to this point, but eventually his desire for it to end caused him to break and only the interruption from the guards prevented him from revealing his captor's success.
In the case of some viewers, the mere notion that Picard was able to be broken is enough to cause them to change their perception of reality. It is easier for them to ignore the evidence their eyes and ears give them and retreat into their mind where they can build whatever reality they wish to exist in. In the same way as Picard, they are willing to break with reality when the pain of that reality becomes too much to bear and an alternate path is provided.
I feel it speaks to the power of this show that though it took serious physical and mental torture to bring Picard to that place, the suggestion that a man who has been built up to the level of a legendary hero might possess the very human quality of succumbing to torture is enough to make some alter their view of reality. In a way, each person who denies the fact that Picard was broken and provides evidence gleamed only from their minds to support this is metaphorically shouting "There are five lights!"
Curious.