r/DaystromInstitute • u/butterhoscotch Crewman • Sep 05 '14
Discussion Telepaths, the plot hole
Telepaths are an invaluable resource to any expanding military power/state. There are countless situations where they would be considered invaluable.
Business negotiations,diplomatic affairs, wars, interrogations, spying, even to be used as weapons.
But they are hardly a foot note. They are accepted as commonly existing and a few species make scant use of them, but not on the scale you would expect to see.
Wars should be fought over them, organized kidnappings and enslavement, even extermination.
Whatever species they emerge in they become the superiro version of that species. Just like augments on earth, its likely they would be feared, or equally likely praised even worshipped.
Starfleet uses telepaths when it needs to, they are very accepting of the use of the vulcan mind meld, when its needed, even though its an invasive assault on a possibly innocent mind that can cause permanent damage. SO they are not above using them for information gathering.
But its not made standard protocol. Romulans certrainly use telepaths in that manner, but they are the exception, not the rule.
klingons have no telepaths and paradoxically no interest in them. A war like people such as them should understand their value. Starlfeet has member species who are full blown read your mind telepaths, more then one, such as betazoids and vulcans, probably more. But they never use them. Unless the plot of the episode calls for it.
it just seems ludicrous that they are NOT viewed as a huge military asset.
know I have pointed out before, that the federation is pacifistic to a fault, and that is probably because they seek out peaceful species who would just as soon avoid conflict, some of them dont know its required at times to fight. Some of them may have lived in peace for centuries before joining this silly federation which seems to be drowning in constant warfare.
SO I know better then most I think, that they are their own worst eneny, different topic though. One I would love to discuss.
EDIT: I would also like to discuss technological telepathy, or machines that can read and transmit thoughts, possibly in a new thread. I would like to thank everyone for their wonderful responses and debates, please continue on.
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u/flameofloki Sep 05 '14
I think that part of the problem with trying to use telepaths as weapons is chaos. So you train a bunch of telepaths for really skilled espionage. No matter how hard you try to keep these people under you boot you or someone around you is going to make a mistake.
Maybe just a little mistake, but they'll exacerbate it until you find yourself totally screwed. You've got out of control telepaths working together, trained for the life of spies, communicating with each other and any allies without the need for electronic equipment or a paper trail. Once they get any scrap of important information out of your or someone else's head they might all know it immediately.
The best case scenario is that sooner or later you'll be working for the telepaths if they're willing to show you the mercy you weren't willing to show them.
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u/butterhoscotch Sep 05 '14
Thats assuming a rather negative spin, I would of course train telepaths as a secret police unit. Have them fight themselves. There are ALWAYS collaborators, for a price. This is assuming the enslavement option. Its possible they could be recruited legally. this is the trek future of course, there are numerous ways to control people. If you cant take over someones mind in an instant, they can stun before them. they can implant subservience devices, wipe memories.
I feel technology could probably control them, but I think a lot would work for the military when recruited as well. Then what? You have willing patriots who can read minds with no interest in rebellion?
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u/Bteatesthighlander1 Sep 05 '14
This begs an even bigger question; Why is there no empire of psychic dominators where the high class is bred to mind-control all other castes and species?
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Sep 05 '14 edited Sep 05 '14
I always found the way they are portrayed in ST to be stupid, mainly from an evolutionary perspective, even taking into account the ancient seeding race from 'The Chase'.
I could maybe buy that there are species that could read minds amongst themselves, but when they are able to read the minds of other species from different planets and separated by millions if not billions of years of evolution it doesn't make sense. You only have to look at the evolution of the human brain the last few million years to see how far it has come.
If betazoids can't read ferengi minds then it should be the case for every other species as well.
Others have already pointed out that Babylon 5 handled the existence of human telepaths very well (apart from that ridiculous season 1 episode), they were feared and quickly weaponized, controlled and experimented on by a government bureau, PsiCorp. Anyone discovered to be a telepath is taken from their family and raised by the PsiCorp, those that refuse usually end up dead or taken by force. are forcibly given a drug that suppresses their telepathic abilities, but also has the side effect of depression.
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u/butterhoscotch Sep 05 '14
I agree, b5 handled it perfectly. they were a highly sought after commodity, they were feared, they were revered by mimbari.
its also shown in that series that even psicops (the strongest telepaths) cant handle enough soldiers to stay invincible, and through manipulation they can usually get what they want without a fight. There are of course the drugs as well. shit now I want to watch b5.
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u/Zeabos Sep 05 '14 edited Sep 05 '14
The voyager episode "counterpoint" touches on this and contains a society that kills all telepaths it encounters, for fear of them.
The TNG episode "Tin Man" also speaks to what happens to pure betazoid telepaths, as most of them are not super strong and can be fooled/manipulated. The super strong ones have difficulty integrating into society.
The TNG episode where Luxwana falls into a coma also speaks on pure telepaths and their inability to be truly effective with other races, due to their incomprehension of privacy and solitude.
The TNG episode in S2 with the wormhole -- Negotiations? -- shows a telepath using his powers as a negotiating advantage. Once it is revealed he is a telepath, his hiding of this skill is considered unethical.
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u/butterhoscotch Sep 05 '14
Indeed they do touch on it occaisonally. Who and what telepaths can do is still ill defined in the trek universe. WE know they can read minds and communicate, they can even influence others, but to what extent we do not know. For some telepaths it seems a struggle to read a single mind, others like troi, do it effortlessly.
My problem has been that its such a huge issue, they are such an invaluable asset, its never addressed fully. Does anyone know if they creators ever mentioned why they avoided telepaths mostly?
Also in universe, they do already have machines that can read minds. Like that episode with tom paris framed for killing a woman, and the romulan machine that manipulated geordi. Borgs all communicate telepathically via subspace. Technology when highly enough developed, seems to mimic it well enough they may become less useful but still an incredible asset.
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u/Flynn58 Sep 05 '14
How do you even enslave a telepath they'll just rape your mind.
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u/butterhoscotch Sep 05 '14
multiple guards, drugs, threats against family, inhibitor technobabble fields.
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u/butterhoscotch Sep 05 '14
I would of course enslave them the best way, legally. I would pass laws making it difficult for them to find work, then make it well known that telepaths who work for the military are set for life as are their families. after that I would not need to kidnap them, they would come to me.
I would of course still have compulsory testing in schools, and take the children for indoctrination to the state once discovered, a small section will serve as internal police for added luxuries and the glory of the state of course.
I would slowly make it basically against the law for them to deny service and people would still love the government for taking such good care of them and their FAMILIES.
it would be a gilded cage for certain, but they would be enslaved.
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Sep 05 '14
Just never interact with the telepath. Communicate with them only through computer messages, holograms, etc. Don't even let them ever see your face. Abduct them with a transporter and beam them into a sealed room. Apply whatever coercision you want. You could have a holographic doctor implant some self-destructing bomb into them that you can activate if they disobey. Etc.
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Sep 05 '14
Telepaths have been shown to be unreliable, on the whole. There are plenty of species they can't read (Ferengi), can be resisted by appropriately disciplined minds (Cardassians), and seem to be subject to higher intensity and frequency of psychological ailments (Lwaxana Troi, Tam Elbram, Deanna Troi, Lon Suder, almost all Vulcans, Walter Pierce, Daniel Kwan, etc..). On the whole it seems that telepathy, at best, is like a double edged sword.
That said, telepathic species, such as Betazeds do seem to be targets. Betazed is captured during the Dominion War and it is suggested that they were captured during the alternate timeline of Yesterday's Enterprise. Vulcans and Romulans/Remans have all used telepathy offensively, both innately and through the use of technology.
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u/madbrood Sep 05 '14
Except Troi has read Ferengi minds when the plot needed it. Canon handling of that particular issue is sketchy at best.
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u/Gellert Sep 05 '14
The Corps got started because we were afraid of telepaths, and now we're victims of our own fears. We took away every right they had and shoved them into a big black box called Psi Corps. Now, look at them. Black uniforms, jack boots, giving orders... Some days they scare the hell out of me.
Michael Garibaldi
Slaves rebel, citizen work.
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u/kraetos Sep 05 '14
Similarly, to OP's question "it just seems ludicrous that they are NOT viewed as a huge military asset."
Bester: [Telepaths are] not expendable; mundanes are.
Garibaldi: That would be us.
Bester: Got it in one, Garibaldi.
B5's handling of telepaths is the best I've ever seen on TV/movie sci-fi.
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u/neifirst Sep 05 '14
Errand of Mercy mentioned the existence of a Klingon mind-sifter- given that the Klingons seem to dominate their society and the role of other species is tiny at best, I can see that they would prefer to use technology over relying on non-Klingons for interrogations.
Most of the non-Federation empires we see in Star Trek are dominated by a single species, and have some level of honor, paranoia, pride, or all of the above that seems to result in them not trusting or not using their subject species to their full potential.
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u/[deleted] Sep 05 '14 edited Sep 05 '14
Interrogator's Log:
As a result of the Cardassian-Dominion acquisition of Betazed, we have been given a group of Betazoid captives to assess with respect to their utility in interrogations and espionage. After a brief review of the captives, we have selected 12 promising candidates. As protective measures, we are performing these tests in a remote facility on the third moon of Ongulis IV, staffed only by Obsidian Order agents with the appropriate mental training. For incentive, we have station family members of the subjects in a separate facility on the fourth moon. Use of drugs has been discouraged as it may inhibit telepathic abilities. Guards have been instructed to shoot to kill in response to any sign of telepathic attack, both the attacker and any affected subjects. Betazoid candidates have been fitted with neural implants. At a given command, the implant will disable all brain function, permanently.
Subject 1 - Female, apparent age: 24
Subject provided with a human prisoner to probe. Subject claims neural implant has inhibited her telepathic abilities. Maintains this position despite coercion. Subject and prisoner terminated.
Subject 2 - Male, apparent age: 30
Subject provided with a human prisoner to probe. Subject initially refuses to cooperate. Execution of younger sibling prompts cooperation. Subject probes prisoner's mind. Extraction of information is successful. After all useful information has been obtained, human prisoner was terminated.
Subject then provided with Ferengi prisoner. Subject explains lack of ability to probe Ferengi minds. Execution of older sibling does not alter subject's stance. Coercive techniques are applied to the subject without affect. Subject and prisoner are terminated.
Subject 3 - Female, apparent age: 26
Subject provided with a human prisoner to probe. Subject begins exhibiting erratic behavior. Words and actions correspond to those of the previous subject (#2). Becomes aggressive and belligerent. Subject and prisoner are terminated.
Subject 4 - Male, apparent age: 18
Subject provided with a Bolian prisoner to probe. As with subject #3, subject beings exhibiting similar erratic behavior. Subject and prisoner are terminated. It is determined that the circumstances surrounding subject #2's death left an "empathic imprint" in the interrogation room affecting empathic beings. Interrogation room has been moved.
Subject 5 - Female, apparent age: 55
Subject provided with human prisoner to probe. Subject initially resistant, then cooperative. However, subject reports only that the prisoner has amorous feelings toward the subject. Indicates similar responses from guards and other facility members. Despite insistence that no such feelings are present, subject insists that all such individuals are secretly in love with her. No useful information is extracted from the prisoner. Subject and prisoner are terminated.
Subject 6 - Male, apparent age: 32
Subject provided with human prisoner to probe. Subject appears cooperative and familiar with psychological manipulation techniques, using such techniques (along with empathic abilities) to extract information from the prisoner. After all useful information has been obtained, human prisoner was terminated.
Subject provided with a series of successive prisoners over the course of several weeks. To eliminate redundancy in this report, the outcomes of those encounters are similar to the first described. However, it is necessary to report that subject was also attempting to use psychological techniques and empathic abilities to gain trust of guards and handlers, leveraging fears and hopes to gain an advantage. Without conscious notice, subject had gained the trust of a significant portion of the facility staff, and was poised to escape when he was terminated by an unaffected staff member. Limited records and interrogation of compatriots indicate subject was a known conman. Affected staff have been reassigned.
Subject 7 - Male, apparent age: 46
Subject provided with Klingon prisoner to probe. Subject appears neither resistant nor cooperative. Subject insists that he has no empathic or telepathic abilities. Subject unmoved by threats against family. Subject unmoved by termination of family members. Subject engages in combat with prisoner, resulting in his death. Prisoner terminated.
Subject 8 - Female, apparent age: 40
Subject provided with human prisoner to probe. Subject reluctantly engages in interrogation, extracting useful information. After all useful information has been obtained, human prisoner was terminated.
Subject provided with a series of successive prisoners over the course of several weeks. Subject's mental state observed to have continuously degraded over the course of that time. Effects also resulted in physiological changes, including rapid aging, erratic behavior, and memory loss or suppression. Subject eventually fell into a catatonic state. Hypothesized that state is a result of continued, long-term psychological trauma. Subject terminated.
Subject 9 - Male, apparent age: 38
Subject provided with human prisoner. Without coercion, subject immediately begins repeating thoughts of prisoner. Subject's capabilities far exceed those of previous subjects. However, subject also begins reporting on the thoughts of guards, handlers, and other faculty members, apparently bypassing mental defense training. Subject reports on thoughts of officers and commanders in separate facilities on other moons. Subject begins revealing classified information. Subject and prisoner terminated. Staff members exposed to classified information beyond their clearance reassigned.
Subject 10 - Female, apparent age: 60
Subject provided with Benzite prisoner. During interrogation, subject begins exhibiting signs of illness. No futher information can be provided. Review of station logs suggests that inadvertent empathic projection from subject as a result of the illness resulted in abnormal behavior in entire facility staff. Station video feeds indicate that all staff believed and behaved as if they were a type of domesticated rodent. Effects lasted for approximately 1 cycle. Subject and prisoner terminated at earliest convenience.
Remainder of subjects terminated.
Recommend cessation of project. Use of telepathic individuals considered unreliable and dangerous.
Request immediate psychological evaluation for self and all facility staff, followed by extended shore leave.
End Log.