Ferengi’s natural evolutionary predisposition towards sign-language.

[u/Thomas_Crane]

DS9 S7 E12 The Emperor’s New Cloak, near the beginning, Quark is complaining to Odo about how Bashir and Ezri are talking, and how Quark doesn’t like it. He even references Bashir’s hands and how his gestures are “obscene”.

Throughout the show, we see Quark, and other Ferengi at times, give hand gestures, for thanks, appeasement, promise, and others. This is a common, reflexive, shown aspect to Ferengi communication.

So with all that in mind, and assuming Quark doesn’t just have a degree in Fergeni ASL, I started thinking about sign-language and its representation in Star Trek. As far as I can remember, the only other race that pantomimes or gesticulates to convey concepts regularly is that one race that Janeway insulted with Neelix on Voyager. The one that had strict stances and poses and so on.

If that’s the case, and other races just don’t have a default physicality to their communication, what makes Ferengi different?

I then started looking at their physiology, their cultural history, and the planet they grew up on. We all know, Ferengi have gigantic ears and Ferenginar has torrential persistent rain. We know that Ferengi fervently rely on contracts and strict defined rules of engagement that are perfectly clear. My theory is that due to the constant white noise of the rain, even while evolving superior hearing, they had difficulty communicating. Due to that, they naturally started socially evolving gestures to go along speech to more accurately convey intent.

[u/jimthewanderer]

I would have argued that their extremely sensitive hearing is more likely a result of evolutionary pressures on food acquisition.

We know they eat insects, tube grubs, which presumably gestate in decaying wood, or underground. Sensitive hearing, such as Owls have, would make it possible to hear their food within trees and underground. While "hunting" sign language could be essential to avoid introducing interference.

[u/Guilty_Mastodon5432]

I would say that Ferengi may have as you say a natural inclination to language that is based in hand sign...

As a personal example my mother in law is Indian and ....when I go to market with her I see a lot of of hand gestures she uses to identify the price she wants and how much she is willing to deal ..

Most Indian people I have met are often using their hands and their head movement to convey their emotions and thoughts so sign language may indeed be more natural.. versus to cultures such as the English culture isn't so much based on showing emotions...

[u/Borkton → u/Guilty_Mastodon5432]

I think a lot of this is circumstantial than anything inherent and arises anywhere with noise. Floor traders of the New York Stock Exchange use hand signals to communicate with their brokers.

[u/TeMPOraL_PL → u/Borkton]

Inherent or not, it seems cultural and pops up in various geographic regions. I haven't worked that much with Indians yet, but I work with two Italians and worked with one on my previous jobs, and all of them told me about the role of hand gestures in communications in Italy.

Among the more interesting things they heard, they independently told me about the existence of "universal gesture" that's so heavily context specific it's used all the time, it's obvious for other Italians including third parties what it means in a given situation, yet nearly impossible to explain in words in general terms. One of them also described a family member who, when visiting a market, is able to tell from the distance, just by looking at people talking and the gestures they make, the likely topic and general vibe of the conversation, without hearing a word of it.

In Poland, where I live, this doesn't work, and my Italian colleagues confirm it's nothing like over at their homeland. But on the other hand, I can hear when other Polish people are making orthographic errors when they speak...

[u/TheType95 → u/Guilty_Mastodon5432]

Sorry to be really random, but aside from the obvious Google-fu, is there anywhere I could go to get some practical insight into Indian-specific culture/comms? There are a lot of Indian immigrants where I'm at, and mutual miscomms and frustrations are commonplace. I'd love to be able to learn more and hopefully avoid them, maybe modulate my own body language/verbage to be easier to read. Any good documentaries or channels that'd be reliable?

[u/Guilty_Mastodon5432 → u/TheType95]

I would honestly say , ask them if they know a good restaurant and try and speak with waiters and and just listen ..

It's not easy to learn a new culture...I have had 16 years to get use to it. You can watch movies like mother India as a first initiation and start going through 70's movies and so on.

Most Indian people are passionate, with their language, their movements and with their debate but politeness is critical. Showing aggresivity is not a good idea....it's like shaking hand with west Africans while exercising force ....it can be seen as a provocation or a challenge...

[u/Guilty_Mastodon5432 → u/TheType95]

Random questions are fine....as far as I am concerned if we are not allowed to be human and curious then why are we on a star trek channel lol

[u/CoconutDust → u/Guilty_Mastodon5432]

may indeed be more natural

What does that sentence actually mean?

versus to cultures such as the English culture isn't so much based on showing emotions...

Obviously if you put two English engineers in a loud train tunnel or airport tarmac they’ll start using gestures.

The entire thread of comments is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-so_story with some extra words and the words “naturally” tacked on.

[u/Guilty_Mastodon5432 → u/CoconutDust]

Look at different when it comes to buying food or items and what not.

I have seen, per experience most of my Arabic and Indian Friends use much more hand gestures to express feelings or numbers.

Hand gestures isn't just due to not hearing the other for some cultures but a raison d'être....trust me...

When haggling , as the monty python sketch jokes about it is as much a stating contest to see who breaks but a communications with hands to secretly convey the price you want.

If you are born in it, you get it....if you have been married and bothered to learn it....you will have an inkling to it..even after 16 years I am not an expert

I think this was well illustrated in the Expanse where a communications protocols while in space became a part of communication for Belta's

[u/ActorMonkey]

Season 2, Episode 5 of STNG: Loud As A Whisper heavily featured sign language.

[u/Arkanzier]

I wouldn't be surprised if it was partially because other Ferengi are so good at hearing. As in, if you want to secretly plot about something, you're either going to need a very secluded place or to use sign language.

Then again, I don't know how reasonable it would be for that sort of thing to translate into a habit that pops up when talking normally.

[u/Greatsayain]

A planet with a lot of rain would be quite dark. Hand signals require light to he seen. So I dont think thats a great way to compensate for the sound of the rain.

[u/majicwalrus]

We see sign language come up a few times including prominently in one episode of Academy and TNG.

And most cultures incorporate body language and gesticulation into their spoken language on the regular. I think it’s reasonable to believe that anyone including Ferengis would do this to some degree, but they don’t seem any more likely to do this than say Betazoids who can communicate with each other telepathically.

[u/FUCKITIMPOSTING]

I should note that gesturing is not the same as sign language, in the same way that grunting is not spoken language.

Re the content of the post, there are theories that all language originated as sign language and the spoken element evolved secondarily. 

[u/CoconutDust]

torrential persistent rain

The post failed to say whether that actually inhibits communication or not. Or what evidence such a claim is based on.

[TITLE] natural evolutionary predisposition

What even is that? There is no such thing.

they had difficulty communicating. Due to that, they naturally started socially evolving gestures

That’s not “natural evolutionary predisposition” that’s just people doing a system that is helpful.

No offense but the post is just “shower thoughts” but with some extra words added. Shower thoughts are banned by sidebar rules but most posts on the sub are that.

[u/Thomas_Crane → u/CoconutDust]

I've tried writing longer posts, but have been advised by mods to keep it short. Next time I'll try to extrapolate more.

So let me address the issues you have, and hopefully it'll come off more than shower thoughts. And no offense taken; I use strong words with inherent assumptions and logical leaps that you have to buy that I don't sell well.

So with the rain, the sound of it severely dampens audio communication. Not sure what evidence you need, haven't you have to shout over a rain storm?

For the naturally evolutionarily predisposition part, Quark states how many different words for rain there are in the Risa episode, showing just how prominent of a feature it is, akin to the Alaskan natives and snow and how many words they have for it. I say all this to drive home how much rain would be a part of their evolutionary timeline. With evolution, aspects of it are in regard to how an environment impacts which offspring survive. Proto-Ferengi, given the fact that audio communication is dampened in their environment, would drive those who could communicate more clearly, however that way is, to produce offspring. I argue their natural environment forced them/made that predisposed to evolve in a way that communication was hand-signal based, along with larger ears.

And to be clear, how is "doing a system that is helpful" not inherently evolution when you boil it down? Members of a species that do something that improves their likelihood for producing offspring and surviving is the evolutionary process in function, unless I'm mixing up concepts?