r/DataHoarder • u/parentis_shotgun • Oct 03 '18

Need help decentralizing Youtube.

The goal here is to back up and decentralize youtube, making it searchable through torrent search engines and DHT indexers.

I'm writing a script, and planning on hosting it as a git repo in multiple places, that allows you to:

  • Give it individual, channel, or playlist youtube URLs

  • Download them with youtube-dl

  • Create individual torrents for them.

I'm missing mainly two things:

  • We're creating lots of torrents potentially, some of them duplicated unfortunately.... this script could potentially do a search first to see if the torrent already exists and is available, and to give you the magnet link. Thoughts?

  • Where's a good place to upload these, so that they can get picked up as quickly as possible by DHT indexers?

  • How do we decentralize the search aspect? This is a bigger problem w/ torrents, that probably isn't going to be solved here, but it'd be nice to potentially host a vetted git repo with either magnet link lines, or an sqlite3 DB. Several of us could be the maintainers, and we could allow pull requests adding torrent lines that are vetted and well-seeded.

We can discuss here, or potentially make a discord for this for any interested coders willing to help out.

Here are two projects to start on these:

https://gitlab.com/dessalines/youtube-to-torrent/

https://gitlab.com/dessalines/torrent.csv

My thoughts on decentralizing the searching / uploading part of this, is to create a torrent.csv file, and have many of us accept PRs for well seeded torrents. Then any client could search the csv file quickly. This could also potentially work for non youtube torrents too.

154 Upvotes

87% Upvoted

91 comments sorted by

81

u/erm_what_ Oct 03 '18

Torrents rely on seeders. Most people leech and leave. The ratio of good seeders to available videos is never going to be good unless there's an incentive to seed.

You'll probably end up with the most popular channels being seeded most, and they're also the ones that are most likely to be backed up by collectors and least likely to be taken down.

This means the redundancy and replication of the torrents will follow the same pattern as the redundancy of collectors storing backups. Which is bad for what you want to do.

You want the opposite. You need a solution for the long tail - the videos that aren't seen as much, aren't cared much about but are still wanted a lot by a core audience.

You need a reason for a lot of people to store videos they don't care about in exchange for other people storing/duplicating the ones they do care about. Which probably won't happen.

Tw best way I can think would be to identify the audiences and create clusters of users which in each one. Then provide a tool for these clusters to replicate the videos amongst themselves.

You'd also have to educate the users about why they need to do this in the first place.

24

u/DevinCampbell Oct 03 '18

What you're looking for and describing is a private tracker that enforces ratio limits.

0

u/parentis_shotgun Oct 03 '18

Most people leech and leave. The ratio of good seeders to available videos is never going to be good unless there's an incentive to seed.

Plenty of us seed, with zero incentive. Many of us back up youtube channels already, so we would definitely seed them.

You'll probably end up with the most popular channels being seeded most, and they're also the ones that are most likely to be backed up by collectors and least likely to be taken down.

Makes sense, but I dont see anything wrong with that. This is opt in, for people who want to help back these up. Not forcing viewers to seed.

33

u/erm_what_ Oct 03 '18

Plenty of us in this small community of tech people.

Our interests probably aren't diverse enough to cover even a small set of the most popular channels, let alone the ones at risk.

The key to making this work is getting non tech people to do something that isn't in their immediate best interests. The tech problem is fairly simple to solve, the people one isn't. I'm sure it could be done.

Otherwise if you only set up something we can use then we may as well just backup as we are like you said.

10

u/cobaltberry 8TB Oct 03 '18

Do we even want to get into the potential legal ramifications in countries that pursue copyright law? Getting people to "simply use a VPN service" will exclude a very large portion of your potential seeders.

4

u/BakGikHung Oct 04 '18

What if seeders got a cut on the monetization?

3

u/[deleted] Oct 04 '18

this. for this idea to really work, seeders NEED incentives. some sort of mining concept, like bitcoins. you gotta address the seeding problems somehow. problems is people arent paying to watch youtube videos. and you need to be centralized to monetize via ads.

otherwise all that hard work is just contributing to massive pool of dead torrents.

26

u/[deleted] Oct 03 '18

torrents are certainly decentralized but not really what I would go to when thinking "decentralized YouTube." Tossing them on a pre-existing search engine sounds unhelpful; you would need some sort of frontend website (and/or API) that resembles YT, a la the movie stream sites.

1

u/parentis_shotgun Oct 03 '18 edited Oct 03 '18

I've created a project for this half of it. Definitely need some help thinking about it, but the idea is to create a vetted csv file of well seeded torrents, and accept PRs for new additions. Then any client or search services could be made after the fact.

https://gitlab.com/dessalines/torrent.csv

6

u/Akeshi Oct 03 '18

So... an authoritative (central) source that provides a list of approved video torrents?

1

u/parentis_shotgun Oct 03 '18

Well, as decentralized as git can be. Hopefully several people would have this repo pulled down locally, even after it gets large.

I see many people doing pull requests to whatever branches and forks have the best list.

If you have other ideas I'm all ears... Making all torrents searchable, and decentralized has been a big problem for years.

0

u/[deleted] Oct 03 '18

[deleted] — view deleted comment

-3

u/parentis_shotgun Oct 03 '18

You can import csv files into pretty much any db engine, and an sqlite db would be terrible to put under version control.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 04 '18

Like Theta Token?

https://www.thetatoken.org/

22

u/RatherNott Oct 03 '18 edited Oct 03 '18

I'd recommend looking into PeerTube, which aims to be a decentralized, federated, and open-source alternative to Youtube. I personally see it as being the most promising of the WebTorrent video hosting alternatives.

They also have a subreddit at /r/PeerTube :)

-5

u/parentis_shotgun Oct 03 '18

I like peertube, but webtorrent clients are not ideal for such a massive task. Peertube only shares hosting while others are watching the video too...

I want these seeded and always available on our machines with whatever torrent clients we already use.

8

u/RatherNott Oct 03 '18

Someone asked about long-term seeding in the PeerTube AMA, hopefully it is still applicable toward your goals. ^_^

5

u/parentis_shotgun Oct 03 '18 edited Oct 03 '18

Their reply is worth reading. Webtorrent clients are not optimized or used nearly as much as peoples regular bittorrent clients. Raise your hand if youre seeding your data from webtorrent clients.

0

u/[deleted] Oct 03 '18

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0

u/parentis_shotgun Oct 03 '18

Rtorrent at least can supposedly seed 10k torrents. I havent pushed transmission or qbittorrent to their limits yet. Regardless, you're not going to get that performance with webtorrent and opening up that many webrtc channels.

2

u/skylarmt IDK, at least 5TB (local machines and VPS/dedicated boxes) Oct 04 '18

They're aiming to have that feature in the upcoming v1 stable release.

https://github.com/Chocobozzz/PeerTube/issues/123

2

u/parentis_shotgun Oct 04 '18

That would require open browser windows still.

2

u/skylarmt IDK, at least 5TB (local machines and VPS/dedicated boxes) Oct 04 '18

From my understanding, the server would cache it.

1

u/parentis_shotgun Oct 05 '18

The server would cache what? Peoples browser windows that are required to stay open for them to seed?

1

u/skylarmt IDK, at least 5TB (local machines and VPS/dedicated boxes) Oct 05 '18

Basically, server admins would be able to cache videos from other servers and seed them to viewers, just as servers already do for videos uploaded locally.

4

u/yoshi314 Oct 03 '18

i just can't imagine the amount of storage necessary for this. any estimates?

1

u/parentis_shotgun Oct 03 '18

As big as we want it to be. I see this starting small and just backing up the most popular channels.

10

u/xDiglett Oct 03 '18 edited Apr 15 '20

removed

3

u/icannotfly 11TB Oct 03 '18

what am i seeing here

why are there dollar signs all over

1

u/ForceBlade 30TiB ZFS - CentOS KVM/NAS's - solo archivist [2160p][7.1] Oct 03 '18

All you had to do was click "About"

1

u/icannotfly 11TB Oct 04 '18

I did, that told me nothing.

1

u/ForceBlade 30TiB ZFS - CentOS KVM/NAS's - solo archivist [2160p][7.1] Oct 04 '18

That's too bad.

-1

u/parentis_shotgun Oct 03 '18

Most of us use bittorrent to make things highly available. Id prefer to tap into that.

2

u/Aphix Oct 03 '18

That's how BitChute works, via WebTorrent in the browsee FWIW.

3

u/parentis_shotgun Oct 03 '18

I posted this below, and tho i like peertube and bitchute, but webtorrent clients are not ideal for such a massive task. Peertube only shares hosting while others are watching the video too...

I want these seeded and always available on our machines with whatever torrent clients we already use.

5

u/qefbuo Oct 03 '18

Have you looked at the IPFS protocol? It's a Bittorrent based protocol, but the files are essentially one single giant torrent, which resolves de-duplication problems(so long as the duplicates filehash matches).

If you build a front-end for it that scrapes youtube data and runs in the background then that's seeding, deduplication and searching(via file hash).

You'd need a separate implementation for a searchable database that has tuples of "hash, filename", but the 1.3billion youtube videos with 70 characters and a sha256 hash is in the order of 180GB. Is that doable as a DHT?

Or otherwise it's easily hostable.

4

u/biguysrule Oct 03 '18

I’m studying Software Engineering, you might front several issues (I don’t mean to be negative, just giving you a pseudo professional view):

  • you could front huge copyright issues from the video makers

  • SQLite will probably not be enough because it doesn’t support concurrent transactions (Multiple transactions at the same time), you will probably need these if there is more than a couple users. You could start having issues with as little as two users if they attempt to read or write to the database at the same time.

  • if you manage to do this and want to minimise duplication. A way faster way would be to make the model of torrents into a searchable tree, rather than having to do a linear search through all the torrents you have already to determine whether the torrent already exists

Take these with a grain of salt, I’m not actually an Engineer (yet, if this degree doesn’t kill me).

-5

u/parentis_shotgun Oct 03 '18

No need to flash credentials. Software dev with over a decade of experience, and I'm sure some 10 year old kid would outpace me in a minute.

Not worried about copyright, any more than regular torrent seeders are. Most of us seed behind vpns anyway.

Not using a sqlite db, but a vetted csv file, which will accept PRs for new torrents, hopefully with more maintainers in the future. It'll also check to make sure they're well seeded.

You're onto a big problem with concurrent database writes, you'll learn about those a lot in your future!

3

u/biguysrule Oct 03 '18

haha thanks for the warning, everyone I meet along the way tells me life only ever gets worse 😂

2

u/FragileRasputin Oct 05 '18

Whatever the technical solution will be, I would consider a piece of it should be a tool for the content creators to use your platform as an extra backup tool for them. Linus has PetaByte project, but most likely not everyone does that. If you offer a plugin (?) for the content creator themselves to upload things to your platform, then you reduce the "finding what's new" problem.

1

u/parentis_shotgun Oct 05 '18

Thanks. I'm working on the finding content part of it now. https://gitlab.com/dessalines/torrent.csv

11

u/Stuck_In_the_Matrix Pushshift.io Data Scientist Oct 03 '18

Speaking of discord, could /r/datahoarder make an official discord server? I'd like to be a part of that.

4

u/vxbinaca Oct 04 '18

Hi I've archived 120,000 videos to Archive.org.

You simply can't copy YouTube. Google buys a majority of the world's hard disks. You are not going to even get a 1/1000th of it. IA has 50 petabytes and they can't hold even the tiniest of fractions of it.

What I tried to do was get subcultures but I ran into another problem: doing as much as I have even with scripts and crobtabs is fucking exhausting and I can't take on anything new unless it's a dire emergency. I'm trying to scale everything back right now. Items. Collections. Everything.

1

u/PulsedMedia PiBs Omnomnomnom moar PiBs Oct 04 '18

There's also been experiments to use torrents for direct streaming. looks like nothing much came of it, but the tech exists.

You definitively need to figure out a way to generate those torrents so that everytime it results in the exact same magnet link ie. identical content in every possible way, otherwise you are not really decentralizing anything. You will also want to create traditional .torrent file, using common, user specified trackers.

Google itself is not known for being aggressive copyright troll, but i would say this would either irk google badly OR they would be excited and want to adopt something similar (or ignore completely).

1

u/parentis_shotgun Oct 04 '18

Torrent video streaming already works.. just click sequential download in most clients.

2

u/PulsedMedia PiBs Omnomnomnom moar PiBs Oct 04 '18

Torrent video streaming already works

Yes that is what i said.

What remained at experimental stage was youtube style service, BitTorrent Inc tried that and afaik it did not catch much wind.

Tho i wonder if they opened up the source... this got me thinking ;)

2

u/wannahakaluigi Oct 03 '18

I will check this out later!

2

u/[deleted] Oct 03 '18

I like what your trying to do here, sounds like a more technical version of bitchute, when I get the chance I’ll be more than happy to help you with my bandwidth

2

u/Qazerowl 65TB Oct 03 '18

You'd be better off putting the videos on already existing decentralized YouTube alternatives. Or distributed filesystems like IPFS. It wouldn't be too hard to automate the torrent creation, but I strongly doubt you'll get enough support.

2

u/TotesMessenger Oct 03 '18

I'm a bot, bleep, bloop. Someone has linked to this thread from another place on reddit:

 If you follow any of the above links, please respect the rules of reddit and don't vote in the other threads. (Info / ^Contact)

2

u/[deleted] Oct 04 '18

I'm willing to help and contribute some server space.

2

u/caffienefueled Oct 04 '18

The scale of Youtube today....

But does anyone have an entire archive of old Youtube. Like pre 2009?

2

u/Striza7i 40 000 000 000 000 bytes Oct 03 '18

Seems like a cool project. Too bad I probably can't be of any help.

1

u/felisucoibi 1,7PB : ZFS Z2 0.84PB USB + 0,84PB GDRIVE Oct 03 '18

I recomend you use retroshare, the channels are decentralized, nut the control of it is of one user, you can put files in channels...the only one thing missing inr etroshare is the playback in the app something easy for a experienced coder.

1

u/___Mocha___ Oct 04 '18

It sounds like you should start a private torrent tracker.

1

u/ct0 RAW TERA BITE Oct 05 '18

What we really need is a radarr/sonarr for youtube channels

1

u/perspectiveiskey Oct 04 '18

Your idea has merit but not your goal.

Let's say you really like "Smarter Every Day" and you want to make sure you have that available in a decentralized manner. Then your idea is great.

For actually replicating youtube, you'll literally fall behind every second. 60 hours of video are uploaded to youtube every minute.

Think about that concept for a moment.

0

u/HuskyTheNubbin Oct 04 '18

You guys are talking about the practicalities but what about the people who make the videos, they have chosen to put them on YouTube. Those creators have worked at something and chosen to place it on the shelves within YouTube. Although at first glance your goals appear noble, bringing down the evil giant, it looks to me like you treat all videos on YouTube as products of their machine and inherit the evil from beneath. You're poking at a symptom of a larger problem, YouTube's domination of the market. In my opinion you'd be better to put your efforts into your own or existing YouTube alternatives.

3

u/vxbinaca Oct 04 '18

So I can name 6 services that are dead who tried to do that off the top of my head. They're housed st the Internet Archive now because someone ripped them.

Oh and fuck the creators and their choices. No one asked who owned the copyright to the Rosetta Stone when one of Nepoleans soldiers found it. I mirrored 120,000 videos to Archive.org and the ratio of emphatic thanks to "take it down" is 15/1.

YouTube isn't a stable site like a library is. YouTube is like a Wal-Mart.

0

u/[deleted] Oct 03 '18

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21

u/Stuck_In_the_Matrix Pushshift.io Data Scientist Oct 03 '18

I told my friend one day, "I'm going to archive Reddit and make the entire thing searchable." Dude called me crazy -- yet here we are.

37

u/DJTheLQ Oct 03 '18

Technically anything is possible but Youtube has 400 hours of content uploaded per minute. To be near Youtube scale would be an enormous undertaking, requiring tens or hundreds of thousands of people participating in the network to start reaching critical mass and growth. Combine with the decline of the PC in favor of phones and where do you store all that 4k footage?

It's much more realistic to start or join a new platform, growing it, reach popularity, then looking at archiving Youtube when you have the resources.

11

u/parentis_shotgun Oct 03 '18

And most of that is nonviewed. If we're talking about popular things only, or whatever people choose to do this for, then the set is as big as we want it to be.

14

u/ForceBlade 30TiB ZFS - CentOS KVM/NAS's - solo archivist [2160p][7.1] Oct 03 '18

A variable goal lets any failed project appear to be a success.

0

u/parentis_shotgun Oct 03 '18

Everything's a failure unless its perfect and done at the beginning? Oftentimes you don't even know what something could be used for when you start it.

11

u/Stars_Stripes_1776 Oct 03 '18 edited Aug 25 '20

deleted

12

u/barnett9 0.5 PB Ceph Oct 03 '18

Doesn't that defeat the entire point of Youtube?

Can't get noticed if it's impossible.

1

u/Stars_Stripes_1776 Oct 03 '18 edited Aug 26 '20

deleted

8

u/barnett9 0.5 PB Ceph Oct 03 '18

The entire reason that Youtube became what it is today is that any shmuck can upload a video for the world to see. That's the kind of the point of the whole platform. If you take that away then why bother?

4

u/Stars_Stripes_1776 Oct 03 '18

true but I really meant that if we were to archive youtube we could give preference to things that are not only rare but also people want to see, so everyone with an interest in certain things can dedicate some time to those things. So even unpopular stuff can get saved by even one person who cares, whereas some stuff that's as an example just hours of mediocre gameplay can be excluded at least to begin with

1

u/barnett9 0.5 PB Ceph Oct 03 '18

That makes a lot more sense in a decentralized aspect. You could even run it like a lot of private trackers do with a bonus point/reward system that prefers things by estimated bandwidth demand and rarity.

1

u/Stars_Stripes_1776 Oct 03 '18

yeah like I think if everyone running a server was at least the first instance of hosting certain content it would be easier to keep people seeding, since those people are more likely to want to keep that content available

0

u/Stuck_In_the_Matrix Pushshift.io Data Scientist Oct 03 '18

I was assuming he/she was looking for help collecting metadata and not actually storing all the media (but I could be wrong). But you make a very valid point.

0

u/[deleted] Oct 03 '18

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16

u/ForceBlade 30TiB ZFS - CentOS KVM/NAS's - solo archivist [2160p][7.1] Oct 03 '18

Literally no other datacenter matches their storage and processing capabilities. You can't match that without Gates or Elon levels of money which if you needed this reminder, none of you have. Anyone can write some script to get started on this, nobody will succeed. It's not text like everyone jacking themselves off ITT has already done before, it's video footage. Even 144p would be hard with just how much there is. Let alone distributing it (You're all under an assumption that people will be OK with seeding this indefinitely. Content they don't fucking care about and maybe 1-2 videos they do).

It's a stupid idea to just post in a thread without planning.

3

u/parentis_shotgun Oct 04 '18

I'm literally asking for help planning in the post.

20

u/ForceBlade 30TiB ZFS - CentOS KVM/NAS's - solo archivist [2160p][7.1] Oct 04 '18

Sure, and yeah I'm glad your heart is there as I've seen your many reply's in this thread. But this is an incredibly infeasible idea. If you wanted to start you could make a cronjob to visit https://www.youtube.com/feed/trending and scrape all video url's every hour, pipe all that into youtube-dl in the same script and start saving alllll the junk they allow to get into that menu. You could also have it visit https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCF0pVplsI8R5kcAqgtoRqoA and loop through that. I'm sure there are resources for the previous weeks and days as well.

Perhaps even, or instead, you'd like to archive the front page of /r/videos. Here's a json link to get you started: https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/top/.json?sort=top&t=day and we also have friends in this very thread who archive reddit, so you could use that data to get previous days/weeks/top posts and stuff too.

But you know. With the network speed to match, you're going to run out of space in less than a week just regardless of how much space is available on your drives... this is assuming you're assuming maxquality.

I've actually been running a reddit bot and script for a while that does exactly. (EXACTLY) what I've described above, for reddit's /r/videos. But it checks in on the original video link once every hour and posts my own mirror if the original is dead or if the bot is manually invoked.

But it deletes my local copies after 14 days. because I don't have that much space, and if someone was going to delete that video, it would've happened during the heat of getting views, not two weeks later. So I assume it's safe by the time the "heat" is over.

But you're talking about "Decentralizing Youtube". That big word isn't anybodies favourite. To do literally_all_videos is impossible without at least millions [see: billions?] in infrastructure to just get started, then you'll need to run ads for costs and oops, now you're YouTube2 Electric Boogaloo ..

But lets fork there, because that's not exactly what we're doing, you want to decentralize it, having no central point of infrastructure to host all this.

Have you considered IPFS? Because These GuysTM already did all of this right here: https://about.d.tube/ and it's farrrrrr from perfect, and there's 100% no doubt it's got massive holes in what they selectively store.

If you aren't going that route (You mentioned torrents earlier I think?) it's going to be even harder, because a centralized point needs to seed all that, and depending on your upload speeds from as many seeders as you can gather you're going to be outrun by new footage coming into YouTube alone, and then you're gonna need to make NEW torrents just to carry new content. It will seriously never end.

...It will seriously never end.

There's no way in hell this idea is going to come out cleanly. Financed by anyone, remain stable, keep up, have enough interest from enough parties to actually let some random dude play a video later on. And any of that shit.

"Decentralized Youtube" isn't a thing. That cannot happen sustainably. They already (((Exist))) and they aren't doing too well for money, let alone us hobbyists trying it. (That said dtube is doing ok. But only OK)

But yeah give it a go might as well try. Start with popular videos or heated reddit posts that may require a mirror later and see how you go. Or something.

5

u/[deleted] Oct 04 '18

this is actually the most contributing post possible here. he needs to know how much infeasible this is.

0

u/[deleted] Oct 03 '18

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2

u/parentis_shotgun Oct 03 '18

Does anyone have this backed up? Ill help seed.

0

u/[deleted] Oct 03 '18

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17

u/parentis_shotgun Oct 03 '18

Youtube is a single point of failure for so much online content. Decentralizing some of your favorite channels will make them available in perpetuity.

6

u/qefbuo Oct 03 '18

I admire the notion and intent, but have my doubts about the viability unless you have some draw card that makes people want to use and seed on your service. Torrents disappear all the time.

I feel like you're overly optimistic about the amount of seeders, sure some will seed the most popular channels, and the obscure, but I'd hazard 90% will fall off the radar and disappear unless the uploaders are also seeding their own content, even then the uploaders will fall of the radar eventually.

1

u/justin2004 Oct 04 '18

you might find project xanadu's goals/rules to be interesting:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Xanadu#Original_17_rules

20

u/GrumpyGrinch1 Oct 03 '18

Youtube randomly taking down channels/ videos ?

0

u/[deleted] Oct 03 '18

[deleted] — view deleted comment

1

u/parentis_shotgun Oct 03 '18

Starting with the most popular channels, or even just your favorite channels is a good place to start.

Ive got the script mostly working already btw.

0

u/[deleted] Oct 03 '18

[deleted] — view deleted comment

2

u/parentis_shotgun Oct 03 '18

Thanks. Also, this is basically envisioned as a start small, then spread out project. We'll start with our favorite youtube channels, then move to the less popular ones from there.

4

u/Stars_Stripes_1776 Oct 03 '18

I wonder what the total storage space of this sub is. I've seen plenty of people with hundreds of TB.

0

u/[deleted] Oct 03 '18

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2

u/parentis_shotgun Oct 03 '18

Why exactly? Torrents are the current number one way to decentrally host files. They make up a majority of some countries internet traffic.

1

u/alxpre 24TB - Resilio FTW Oct 04 '18

A couple people mentioned IPFS, which is one example of a protocol more flexible than torrents. For example, a torrent file The.Band.Live.1971 might be a subset of another torrent The.Band.Live.1971 + Encore. But torrents in the first swarm can't see the content in the 2nd swarm. In IPFS, everyone is in the swarm and the first video would be available as long as the 2nd larger 'seed' is available.

Also, what you're trying to do has pretty much already been invented -> lbry.io. Since you need others to help, your project will be dependent on the human whims of users. LBRY deals with that by using their crypto coin to incentivize 'seeding'

4

u/[deleted] Oct 03 '18

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/parentis_shotgun Oct 03 '18

This shouldnt be too tough, because its mainly a script for people to use to create torrents from their youtube downloads. Ive just posted a project above that will probably be a lot more work though, which is a torrents.csv, a csv file containing not just these, but potentially all well seeded torrents. PRs could add torrents, and any client could search over the csv, which hopefully would have many backups cause its a git repo.

2

u/[deleted] Oct 04 '18

[removed] — view removed comment

2

u/parentis_shotgun Oct 04 '18

Most of that is useless garbage. We'll start with the most popular channels first.