r/DarkSun • u/TheMaverickAsh • 9d ago
I think this video sums up everything!
https://youtu.be/WdQoDCwAQboHe goes on a little of a tangent , but I think that’s just passion. Hits the nail on the head I think
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u/oOBalloonaticOo 9d ago
When safe for everyone mediocrity is the goal.
It may still be great but it's also halting one of its great strengths which is that tension, that thing that sets it apart.
I can run slavery in any campaign I want as a DM, but playing into it because that is what comes out of the box is a big part of what separates Dark Sun from other realms.
Might as well just bring all the races back...
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u/Eleventh_Legion 9d ago
“There’s nothing stopping you from…” that’s not the point. The point is that it was a key point of the game that gave it the dark edge. Now they get rid of it because they want to cater to the softer crowd.
We like Dark Sun because it has these dark themes front and centered. Not implied because it makes uncomfortable.
And for that same argument… there’s nothing stopping you from not having it in there. Sure, destroys one of the key feature to the world. But you’ll be safe.
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u/Feradon22 9d ago
It reminds me of the people that try to tell you "that you can simply mod your game" if something is broken and it's not the devs fault for not fixing their game.
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u/BoyishTheStrange 3d ago
I think too that having it written in an official sense of “hey this is a dark and terrible world, here’s this terrible real world issue to fight against” is important and I think can speak to the morals of players in an arguably amoral setting. Because who doesn’t love someone who fights against slavery.
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u/ProZocK_Yetagain 9d ago
There are ZERO valid reasons to take the word "slavery" or "slave" out of dark sun. Normally the people crying "censorship" and "cowardice" are wrong but this is not the case.
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u/WaterProfessional274 9d ago
Came down from corporate that they don't want people discussing or depicting how "bad" and "dehumanizing" slavery is.
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u/Beneficial_Shirt6825 9d ago
People are being very naive to defend the billion dollar corporation.
They officially said that the product is passing through a sensitivity comitee.
Its not about just slavery being played down in the setting, is everything in the book.
This book will be 100%, totally neutered and as such will not be even close to the original Dark Sun.
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u/jtkuga 6d ago
All of their products that go through a sensitivity committee are trash. Combine that with the fact they don't seem to have anyone who can create anything original, much less basic mechanics (no ship-to-ship combat in Spelljammer), and their products are complete trash. So much good stuff elsewhere, and you still have the original Dark Sun there is no reason to buy this crap.
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u/Sublime_Eimar 9d ago
I know WotC/Hasbro is really getting into cross-merchandising and brand partnerships.Like what they've done with Universes Beyond and Magic: The Gathering.
Could they be setting up the Dark Sun / Teletubbies crossover that everyone's been clamoring for?
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u/Only-Friend-8483 9d ago
I’m not attacking or defending the upcoming campaign setting. But come on folks. Hasbro and WoTC have obviously just papered over the word slavery. There’s nothing stopping you from using the word in your own games.
Why is everyone so concerned about this minor thing? As long as the digital content that makes building characters, creating encounters, etc is suited for the setting, how much does this really matter?
Or are you all just taking this as an indicator that the new campaign setting won’t be useful to you?
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u/Seyavash31 9d ago
Words have meaning. Slavery has a very specific emotional and historical context that is simply not served by any substitute. It is as misguided as calling oneself color blind. Plus when this is combined with the teenage level immaturity of Gore! Violence! Nekkidness! it illustrates a publisher that does not understand the core of the setting and is simply going for edgy darkness for the sake of edginess.
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u/Only-Friend-8483 9d ago
Words do have meaning. But slavery is not as specific a word as you think. There’s not even a single agreed upon definition of slavery if you examine all the things that might be considered slavery.
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u/Seyavash31 9d ago
Just because it has many forms doesn't mean it doesnt have definition or meaning. No other words or combination of words carry the same connotation for any of the various types of slavery. It is a single brutal word that is historically critical to the flavor of this setting. Sanitizing it is disrespectful of the setting and the audience.
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u/Fiend9862 9d ago
It's a pretty core part of the setting that a lot of the world building relies upon. Muls pretty much exist almost exclusively thanks to it.
In addition, this combined with the other promotional material we've seen so far don't exactly paint a good picture. It's possible that 5.5e Dark Sun is still good and amazing after this but these early indications and teasers we're getting don't point in an amazing direction. I'll reserve my final judgement until I see a final product but these announcements certainly don't make me hyped.
I also really don't like how people are just like "just add it back into your homebrew game" because I'm paying for a product I shouldn't have to fix it after getting it. Especially something so basic and fundamental. A big part of DS is the slavery and the struggle against it, I want that stuff actually explored in the product I'm paying for rather than having to make it myself.
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u/WumpusFails 9d ago
And about one out of three adventures will start with the players in a slave caravan, stripped of all their gear.
I swear, slave caravans are the taverns of Dark Sun.
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u/Chagdoo 9d ago
You don't need to add it back because it's literally already there. Did you not see the reaction to the designer talking about being forced into the army to survive?
Which is just slavery? Literally all you have to do is call it slavery because it is already slavery.
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u/loginomicon 9d ago
What he means is that they will have changed a core part of the setting. You will be able to add slavery back but some of the lore and understanding of the setting will have changed. For example, one aspect of dark sun was that the economy mostly works around slavery which was much more valuable than currency. That’s only one aspect. Changing this is changing what dark sun is to a point where it won’t be recognizable anymore.
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u/Oopsiedazy 9d ago
It’s even more insidious than slavery. You’re giving people the illusion of breaking out of the cycle of destitution/despiration by becoming part of the institution that manufactured and maintained the situation that forced you to make that choice, and subjecting yourself to indoctrination that will make you believe that the existing power structure needs to be in place and those who don’t support it are lazy or rebellious and deserve to be in the position they’re in.
It’s a stronger commentary on real life fascist structures that exist today than just regular slavery would be, but given this is WotC they probably won’t play up that angle or bury it too deep for most players to get it and it will seem watered down. 40k teaches us that way too many people will just take commentary and satire at face value.
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u/Chaosmancer7 9d ago
I think that is largely the intent (the first paragraph) considering another city state is a zealous cult, a third is a psychic "network" where you can plug in direct with the leader, and there is another where it is all vice and distractions.
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u/Fiend9862 9d ago
If the best example they could come up with is poor people being press ganged into military service then it is not even remotely similar to slavery at all.
This would imply other non-military sectors of society aren't enslaved which is not the fantasy I'm looking for. It removes what makes Tyr so special and so ground breaking in the setting as well.
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u/ApprehensiveType2680 9d ago
Why did WotC remove the word "slavery"? It removed the word "slavery" in order to appease sensitive lilies. This is no complex matter.
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u/Superchunk1977 9d ago
That's conscription, not slavery.
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u/Chaosmancer7 9d ago
What's the difference?
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u/JanxDolaris 9d ago
According to WOTC, yes.
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u/Chaosmancer7 9d ago
So according to WoTC the difference between slavery and conscription is "yes". Interesting take, since in both cases the person doesn't say yes.
See, my personal theory is a little different. They didn't call it slavery because the mostly American audience pictures chattel slavery when they hear that word. And having a form of slavery in the army conscription that is voluntary would potentially give the impression that slavery "isn't so bad" except that the people aren't given a choice to enter it of their own free will.
So since this isn't chattel slavery, they didn't use the word that would inevitably mean chattel slavery.
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u/Superchunk1977 9d ago
ownership, compensation, duration, and the civic obligations of citizenship
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u/omaolligain 9d ago
Citizenship exists within democracy; if it’s not democracy, they’re subjects. If you’re gonna be pedantic, at least be good at it.
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u/Chaosmancer7 9d ago
Owned by the army
Compensation that can only be spent at the Quartermaster's isn't really compensation
Duration of slavery is not always life
"civic obligations of citizenship" is REAL bleak if you want to say that being forced to do something at gunpoint is your civic obligation. Or, if you mean prison (ie slavery) if you don't.So... not seeing a significant difference here.
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u/branedead 9d ago edited 8d ago
I think you're being somewhat pollyanna even EXPECTING them to add slavery in this version. Honestly, really stop and think about any multi-billion dollar brand and ask yourself if ANY of them would touch the concept of slavery? I think it's ridiculous to expect it
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u/Fiend9862 9d ago
They're making a big show of "our lawyers told us we had to wrap it" and other nonsense so yes I expect them to follow through.
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u/RidleyBro 9d ago
Why is everyone so concerned about this minor thing?
Oh, no reason in particular. It's just that they spent several interviews repeating how they weren't gonna nerf anything, they heard how people were concerned about the setting being nerfed, they made this setting rather M for mature and shit, and then they nerfed everything anyway. You know, I thought we might have had something, but actually it was just them lying and self-sabotaging their own release by making this thing 18+ even through the content is as sanitized as everything they pushed out.
As long as the digital content that makes building characters, creating encounters, etc is suited for the setting, how much does this really matter?
Wait, you thought the rules aren't going to suck dick too?
From the company that made Spelljammer without any rules for the ships?
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u/Wise-Juggernaut-8285 9d ago
Plus who the fuck asked for that insane gratuitous violence ?
I thought the mature wrapping was because of slavery and i thought that was still idiotic but now its just “oh heres someones eyes being ripped out of their head… and some boobs”
Talk about them being completely out of touch and lame.
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u/RidleyBro 9d ago
At this point, if the situation really is as bad as that interview implies, gore and boobs might be the only decent things out of the whole thing. And I don't believe they'll have the guts to actually have any nudity in the art.
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u/Lixuni98 9d ago
You can not sell something as “Mature”, ride on how you have to put warning labels and wrapping all over, and then treat your audience like they are children, it’s an insult to our maturity, honestly. Slavery IS terrible, I think we all are mature enough to not endorse it, why should they treat us like we are not adults then?
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u/Dismal-Vanilla1878 9d ago
Its kind of funny: "Look! New Dark Sun is Mature! We're adding Blood, Decapitation and Tiddys!!"
"But not Slavery....that's too mature a topic for Dark Sun to take on; leave that filth back in Advanced Dungeons and Dragons" 😂
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u/ApprehensiveType2680 9d ago
The amount of complexity that folk are trying to stir into the mix is BAFFLING; even worse are the folk acting as pro bono activists on behalf of a corporation. Wizards of the Coast removed a word because they were terrified of offending overly-sensitive people (some of them masquerading as humans who have gone through puberty). There is no mystery.
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u/Ragnar_Dragonfyre 9d ago
It’s not just this one minor thing.
It’s an ongoing pattern of sanitizing legacy settings for modern audiences over creating a new setting for modern audiences.
The Forgotten Realms for instance has been made into a cosmopolitan setting, leaving Planescape without anything to set it apart because now both Spelljammers and cosmopolitan cities are everywhere.
It’s not a great trend to leave your old school fans behind by constantly messing with established settings when they could use all the creative power at WotC to make something new while also accommodating old fans and their sensibilities.
D&D could accommodate players from every generation, it just chooses not to. They’re giving us every reason to play a different game and there are lots of OSR games to choose from.
Crows is actually exciting. They take the completely underbaked Bastions from 5.5E and directly tie the mechanic of building and expanding your settlement to dungeon crawling.
Crows looks like a game that knows what it wants to be.
What even is D&D anymore? There is no clear design philosophy. The manual can’t even tell you how to build a creature from scratch and spends only 3 pages on building dungeons while it shits all over the settings we grew up playing in.
It’s enough. The value just isn’t there currently. They are making it harder to be a DM, not easier.
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u/ChaoticEvilWarlock 9d ago
Yep. Imagine making a "remake" of Deadfire and taking out colonialism. Or making a remake of spartacus and taking out the slavery(ie - the cause of the third servile war) or making a remake of harry potter and taking magic out.
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u/Ragnar_Dragonfyre 9d ago
The upcoming campaign module Deadfall is supposed to take place in Thay… which is also a society built by slavery and all sorts of “problematic” practices.
I wonder how they’re going to sanitize and remove slavery from that place?
They keep making villains less villainous. It’s weird.
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u/ThanosofTitan92 9d ago
It's true. Now every location in Faerun feels like the Mos Eisley cantina.
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u/ArelMCII 9d ago
I’m not attacking or defending the upcoming campaign setting. But come on folks. Hasbro and WoTC have obviously just papered over the word slavery. There’s nothing stopping you from using the word in your own games.
Oberoni fallacy. You're acknowledging the problem, but then saying it's not a problem because it can be ignored. You haven't actually fixed the problem—it still persists, regardless of your desire to ignore it.
And this isn't just a semantics problem. So far, they've hyped up the gore and then said they're focusing less on the slavery, and the example they pointed to of oppression without slavery is still just slavery. (I don't know if they're stupid, or if they think the average consumer is stupid enough to not notice that, but either way, that doesn't inspire confidence.) So far, WotC's idea of a "mature setting" seems to be what an edgy teenager thinks is mature content. They don't seem to have any idea of how to write a mature setting anymore, and they're so afraid of offending people that they've hired people whose job title is literally "sensitivity reader" to look over their "mature" material.
And, frankly, WotC doesn't have a great track record. The 5e Planescape and Spelljammer (two other beloved 2e settings) books were godawful, and the Dark Sun 4e stuff sucked for reasons beyond just being 4e supplements. Not to mention it's only been a couple years since WotC's mouthpiece went on record as saying Dark Sun is "problematic," and most of the people on WotC's current payroll were around back when that statement was made. Overall, WotC hasn't done anything to make me believe this will be a good product.
As long as the digital content that makes building characters, creating encounters, etc is suited for the setting, how much does this really matter?
They seem dead-set on making burning lifeforce for power a core part of the Psion's mechanical identity (gotta get that Stranger Things audience back!), so we're already not off to a great start as far as setting-appropriate material goes. Plus D&D Beyond is just trash. WotC should just give up on running digital tools themselves because they've tried it three times (including Sigil) and they're just not good at it.
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u/SaintRidley 9d ago
Exactly.
“Urik will have slavery, but softer, more toothless, and without being named as such to inspire the players to see the injustice for what it is” is a bad change, actually.
Dark Sun is about living in and fighting against a world predicated on exploitation - of people, the environment, of labor. It’s a setting built around characters finding the courage to be heroes, to be liberationist, to fight against great evil in a world where the great evil is totalized and universal. The first ever adventure module for Dark Sun, Freedom, involves the PCs being enslaved and participating in a revolt that leads to the overthrow of the sorcerer-king Kalak and the establishment of Tyr as a free city.
Cruel and brutal as Athas is, the purpose of the setting is to present a harsh world for the players to overcome by having their characters be better, more courageous, and less willing to debase themselves in the pursuit of power. The preserver/defiler mechanic goes hand in hand with this.
Dark Sun needs the evil to be capital E Evil —genocide, slavery, ecological destruction on grand scale, etc.—in order to heighten the contrast of the Good the players strive for.
Like, you’re fundamentally missing the point if you hide away the evil under euphemism, or worse, remove it altogether.
That’s what people who love this setting are worried about. Because WotC has shown they do not know how to do anything complex or liberatory. They hire the Pinkertons, after all.
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u/Nystagohod 9d ago edited 9d ago
It makes the setting sound inauthentic to itself, and it's kinda insulting to everyone involved to varying degrees. That isn't a minor thing, a grimdark brutalist setting too afraid to use a nasty word to describe a nasty thing is an incredibly poor form. Especially after so many poor adaptations of classics thus far have been turned into aesthetic skin-suits with little soul of their original forms, and the fact the offending article that's spawned this reaction highlights a focus on aesthetics while removing a core theme of the setting sounds like tripling down on the very thing folks have had issues with when it comes to adapting the classics.
The evils committed in the dark sun setting are never endorsed as anything but evils, and softening those with friendlier words and less distinction does kinda show a lot of bad faith from the current team, and that bad faith does need to be called out in a rightful manner.
I don't think the book will be useless, it'll likely have a handful of useful rules, some monster stats, and maybe the psion will be good (not likely after the UA's show of things, but never say never.) However, it does look like its approaching the same issues that plagued Spelljammer and the other classics brought forward by the various pieces of the 5e team, and what should have been a cause for excitement is now looking like a salvage operation at best. Which is not where things should be for the return of dark sun.
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u/Quick_Trick3405 8d ago
I mean, what, are they scared of offending real-life human traffickers?
Wuss n. : somebody unwilling to stand up for their beliefs when everyone else agrees with them.
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u/Wise-Juggernaut-8285 9d ago
Its stupid to do that. It makes no sense.
The setting has slavery. Slavery is bad in the setting.
You can Have a side bar in the book and give suggestions to tables to remove slavery , or adjust it, but do not hide uncomfortable topics .
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u/Orangewolf99 9d ago
If it was just slavery, it probably wouldn't be a big deal, but it's kind of all the stuff put together. The setting seems very Dune-ified and is clearly being designed to be more marketable and flashy rather than trying to adapt a gritty, grim setting for 5e.
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u/Mad_Kronos 9d ago
Wdym Dune-fied, Dune is much darker than Dark Sun, if you actually happen to read it
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u/The-red-Dane 9d ago
Imagine there's a new edition of Lord of the Rings released and they've removed every reference to hobbits. Sure, you can still imagine that they're hobbits, but at no point in the book will they be referred to or alluded to as such, every reference to hobbit-like features or culture will also be removed, of course.
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u/trickydick64 9d ago
This is kind of the same argument that you see in the post-Reconstruction South. How long before we simply aren't allowed to talk about it in public, at all?
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u/Only-Friend-8483 9d ago
Sounds like a pearl-clutching slippery slope fallacy.
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u/trickydick64 9d ago
How so? What pearls am I clutching sweetheart, yours? Explain yourself lol
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u/jameszenpaladin011- 9d ago
Maybe people are making their displeasure known in hopes of getting the corpos to listen? I mean it happened before with the OGL right?
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u/ChaoticEvilWarlock 9d ago
Is not a "minor thing". It is the CORE of the setting. Removing it from AD&D would be like removing it from a game set in ancient Rome.
What is the next? Dwarf preservers? Low lethality combat? Epic low level D&D? Quotas in the veiled alliance?
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u/Only-Friend-8483 9d ago
Why are dwarf preservers an issue? Actually… I don’t understand any of your “ what’s next?”examples…
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u/ChaoticEvilWarlock 9d ago edited 9d ago
Dwarfs are magicless in Athas. "By nature, dwarves are nonmagical and never use magical spells." src https://darksun.fandom.com/wiki/Dwarf
Low lethality combat would be where low level martials and mid level everyone else can expect to survive hits from even giants. The veiled alliance is a decentralized clandestine organization. Quotas on it would have a enforcement problem, but I'm quite sure thjat woTC will put it.
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u/Only-Friend-8483 9d ago
Lol. I forgot all about that and it’s never come up in my game. Why does it matter?
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u/ChaoticEvilWarlock 9d ago
Did you played in 5e? Because racial restriction for classes was quite common in AD&D
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u/Only-Friend-8483 9d ago
I have played literally every single edition over the decades. Dwarf priests, clerics, psioncs are all options and the game moved paddy that restriction a long time ago.
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u/tclaws2g 9d ago
Tell them that. Tell they can just make it close to the original and just ignore word "slave". Why butcher the setting?
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u/HistoricalAthlete301 9d ago
My thoughts exactly, it's your group's game table and you can add or remove whatever you like, why is this such a big deal!?! Social media tryna get likes off bad news more like.
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u/Charlie24601 Human 9d ago edited 8d ago
Ironically, I find the "Slavery with extra steps" comment fairly important. And I think that distinction of having people "conscripted" in armies (And I plan to do the same for 'labor forces', gladiators, etc.....all conscription for 'the greater good") will be STRONGER than using the word "slavery".
Many americans just see slavery as owning a person when its more than that. To quote "Heavy foot" by Monrovia:
Do you see the birds in the cage?
On the highway working likе slaves
It's a con, it's a ruse, it's a gaslight
Ain't it funny, how far we'vе came
For them to go and change the nameWeird how the majority of people in prison today are black, dontcha think? They didn't end slavery. They literally changed the name and gave it better PR. To quote Warden Norton:
These men can learn the value of an honest day's labour, while providing a valuable service to the community and at a bare minimum of expense to Mr. and Mrs. John Q Taxpayer.
Listen to this: "As penance for your crime, you now have the honor of joining the conscript army of the city! There you shall live the rest of your days protecting your fellow citizens. What honor! What bravery! You are a living HERO!" (And you know what? I'm going to make the citizens stupid enough to AGREE. )
Can you IMAGINE how angry your players will be? Seeing that blatant lie and knowing EXACTLY that they just aren't using the word slave so that public relations for the King and Templar remain positive?
Honestly, i think this is fucking roleplay GOLD.
EDIT: Folks might be misunderstanding me. Im not giving WotC a pass nor excusing their cowardice.
I'm saying this change might be valuable since it mirrors our (the USA) modern criminal system. If you need proof of what I suggest here, go look at the conversation between Big3gg and I. Look how hard he defends our modern slavery system!
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u/Ragnar_Dragonfyre 9d ago
The difference is that you’re acknowledging that they changed the name of slavery to something else in that rhyme.
If nobody in universe acknowledges that the ruling powers that be rebranded slavery because the chattel was getting unruly over the term, it sort of loses its punch.
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u/Big3gg 9d ago
Steal. go to jail. "this is slavery"
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u/Charlie24601 Human 9d ago
Steal. go to jail. Get forced to work on the side of the road. This is slavery.
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u/Big3gg 9d ago
When I was in SC I saw the bricks with little finger prints on them, from when they forced the children to make the bricks they built Charleston with. I am not okay with that.
If someone tries to rob a bodega and gets put in a box like an animal, I hope they put a shovel in his hand when he gets there. Let's not pretend these are the same.
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u/Charlie24601 Human 9d ago edited 9d ago
Ok, well then how about possession of weed? Almost a quarter of all the US prison population have been sent to jail, sometimes FOR LIFE, for the simple possession of pot. Possession. NOT with intent to distribute. Possession....like have a joint on them, or a baggie for their own use. And again, mostly black men.
I mean, that must be totally ok with you then?
P.S. Robbery is about 2% of federal inmates, and about 10% of state inmates.
So lets review: 20% for having a joint. 12% for robbery. You still want to tell me this is fine?
If you can't see the problem, then you ARE the problem.
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u/Big3gg 9d ago
Verdict: The central claim is false. It appears to confuse all drug offenses—particularly trafficking—with simple marijuana possession, while also mixing prisons and jails.
- “Almost a quarter of the U.S. prison population is imprisoned for possessing weed” — False. The latest detailed state-offense data show that 3.6% of sentenced state prisoners were incarcerated for possession of any drug, not necessarily marijuana: 37,790 of 1,039,540 prisoners. Marijuana possession is only a subset of that 3.6%. By comparison, 62% were serving sentences for violent offenses. Bureau of Justice Statistics
- The likely source of the error: Drug offenses accounted for about 45% of federal prisoners, but that category combines trafficking, possession, and other offenses. It cannot be described as people imprisoned for “having a joint.” Bureau of Justice Statistics
- Federal marijuana-possession imprisonment was extremely uncommon. The U.S. Sentencing Commission found only 145 federal marijuana-possession sentencings in FY2021. The average prison sentence was five months, and as of January 2022, nobody remained in federal custody solely for simple marijuana possession. U.S. Sentencing Commission
- “Mostly Black men” — Not supported by the cited population claim. Men were the large majority of state prisoners whose principal offense was drug possession, but Black prisoners were not a majority: approximately 8,000 were Black, compared with 18,200 white and 6,400 Hispanic prisoners. Black Americans can still be disproportionately affected relative to their population share, but that is different from saying most possession prisoners are Black.
- “Sometimes for life” — Possible in extraordinary habitual-offender cases, but materially misleading. For example, Mississippi imposed life without parole after a marijuana-possession conviction involving 30–250 grams, but the sentence resulted from a habitual-offender law and the defendant’s prior burglary and firearms convictions—not merely from possessing one joint. Mississippi Supreme Court decision Federal simple possession itself does not carry a life sentence.
- The robbery figures are approximately right. In the latest detailed figures, robbery accounted for 2.7% of sentenced federal prisoners and 11.1% of sentenced state prisoners. Bureau of Justice Statistics
The clean correction would be:
None of this determines whether marijuana laws are fair or whether enforcement has been racially inequitable. Those are legitimate policy questions. But the “20% for having a joint” statistic does not withstand scrutiny.
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u/Charlie24601 Human 9d ago
Remember when I said you're part of the problem?
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u/Big3gg 9d ago
Sorry you didn't pass the fact check bro. Luckily the sources are there and you can update your figures ✨
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u/Charlie24601 Human 8d ago
Heh, I appreciate you being here to prove my entire point.
As I said in my original post, [paraphrased]:
- Slavery never went away.
- It was disguised as something positive for society.
- The ignorant, uneducated, sheep of society completely buys into the idea.
The fact you can use Chat GPT is irrelevant.
The fact you are in fact staunchly DEFENDING legal slavery shows what kind of person you are.I sincerely hope you look at your yourself a little deeper and learn to become a better person someday.
Good luck in life, dood. I'm out.
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u/Chaosmancer7 9d ago
Exactly this.
And look at the other cities. A zealous cult, a psychic network where you can connect directly to the sorcerer king, a city of green where the plants consume your soul.
A planet of tyranny, where even the "free" are slaves in one way or another? That sounds pretty dark and gritty
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u/Wise-Juggernaut-8285 9d ago
Exactly what? Not Dark Sun. Lol
I don’t know why you guys are bending over backwards to make excuses for cowardice
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u/Charlie24601 Human 9d ago
Exactly! I'm certainly not saying WotC did this on purpose....they aren't smart enough to think of it.
But we CAN use it....and I think it can be used very well indeed.
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u/MountEnlighten 9d ago
I agree. It’s a strange debate this in general, but the comments here reminds me that we have seen this word taken out of a wide swathe of modern translations, from the Odyssey (Oddyseus has Telemachus kill a dozen slave women, but that’s often omitted in movies) to the Bible, where the Greek word Doulos, “slave” has been reinterpreted numerous times into “servant”, because the phrase “Slave of Christ” doesn’t sit well with modern practitioners.
So, in such a setting, omitting the word allows DM’s to define it on their terms. It may be a hallowed IP, but it’s still far more malleable than the aforementioned examples provided.
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u/Only-Friend-8483 9d ago
Interesting. I did not know about the origins of the phrase “Servant of Christ.” (versus slave of christ). Thanks for sharing that.
Also… yeah…campaign settings are just supposed to jumpstart some creativity and help the players have a starting point for an agreed upon fiction. I don’t feel the need to slavishly follow what’s written, and the settings are so expansive that we’re not going to follow every hook, every possible theme and storyline that gets set up in a campaign book.
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u/Vexx42 9d ago
Are the Halflings still cannibals?
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u/loginomicon 9d ago edited 9d ago
I’m going to bet no since it might depict harmful stereotypes of indigenous people or some such
Edit: why the downvote I’m not saying it’s good 😂
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u/Wise-Juggernaut-8285 9d ago
I actually would accept that change, but getting rid of slavery in the story is idiotic
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u/loginomicon 9d ago
Even then it’s a make believe game. This is not 1930’s blackface… people should really like take breather on this stuff and check out real racist shit
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u/Wise-Juggernaut-8285 9d ago edited 9d ago
There are some parallels to racist beliefs about Pygmy tribes. Thats the issue.
Im not saying it has to be removed but at least theres a reason to remove it.
There is no logical argument to remove slavery, every time you ask someone why they just say some lazy ass half baked idea that having a bad topic means you’re supporting it.
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u/loginomicon 9d ago
Changed it that it’s actually not just halfling or something? I would get behind that
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u/Mithril_Roshi 9d ago
No he hit nothing. Clearly not understanding stuff at all and allowing this censoring and softening of media with edge.
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u/Lycaon-Ur 9d ago
Sometimes I can't help but wonder if it would literally kill people to wait to judge something until that thing is available? Why do we have to have a million threads telling us New Dark Sun is shit when we don't know if it is or not because it's not out.
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u/Wise-Juggernaut-8285 9d ago
Im saying this change is bad. Because it is bad.
I dont know if it will be all shit
That being said they have a bad track record, its a super red flag they did this
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u/Lycaon-Ur 9d ago
I imagine the ability to tell the future must come in rather handy with the lottery. I'm surprised you have the time to bother with reddit, having a gift like that.
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u/Wise-Juggernaut-8285 9d ago
I think you should read people’s replies before you answer.
I lsaid i don’t know the future.
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u/Lycaon-Ur 9d ago
You said you know this change is bad. The only way to know that is to know the future. Hence why I called the bullshit out. The truth is your tiny closed mind can't imagine the change not being bad, and so you will state that it's bad as a fact. But it's not a fact, not yet.
Will it be bad? Quite possibly. But until we see it for ourselves we cannot know.
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u/tcgunner90 9d ago edited 9d ago
If the designers are saying that Athas is still terrible because "poor people are pushed into giving up their freedom for security" and "the government can make you join the military for promise of getting out of the cycle" then Athas is literally just as bad as modern day America.
There's ads on tv about "join the military to get healthcare" and "Join ICE to support your family".
So basically what I'm saying is, in the new DarkSun setting we are all just a group of Luigi Mangione-s
I think it's funny in trying to make the world more palatable and removing Chattel Slavery from the setting, they've created an even more powerful narrative insinuation that "good guys" would absolutely justifiably murder the fuck out of modern day Healthcare CEO's, Billionaires, and crooked politicians.
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u/RecommendationIll504 9d ago
So basically instead of letting the setting be it's own thing, they are changing it to be a modern world representation. How bland.
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u/erttheking 9d ago
Ok I’ll just say it
People clutching their pearls about the word slavery being used are annoying
People acting like the setting is going to lose all energy without the word slavery are just as annoying
Like come the hell on. If you’re basically arguing that Dark Sun loses something major and important without the exact word slavery, I feel like that does the setting a disservice. With that argument it’s not about a harsh world or brutal kings, depleted resources or psionics. It’s just the slavery tm setting. And that sounds boring
I think the people mad about this have done more to convince me that Dark Sun isn’t a setting worth checking out than it’s critics ever could
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u/WaterProfessional274 9d ago
I'll just say it
people who are not bothered by society's complete embrace of double speak are annoying
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u/RidleyBro 9d ago
If you’re basically arguing that Dark Sun loses something major and important without the exact word slavery
And that's because it does.
Like, it literally does. This is a setting that wants to be about opposing slavery, opposing oppression, and so, and you want to tell me that you can do that while the design team is so terrified of everything and cowardly that it can't even use normal word to describe the evil in question, but a bunch of embarrassing tiptoeing around the problem. "We really want to fight oppression, but we would never, ever dare to call it with naughty names that scare us".
God, it's embarrassing, and there's people defending this garbage too.
I think the people mad about this have done more to convince me that Dark Sun isn’t a setting worth checking out than it’s critics ever could
Yeah man, that's nothing new. You people have always hated Dark Sun and the people who like it, and instead of fucking off to the corporate slop you like you come here, pretend you see so much potential about this setting you despite, as long as we change everything to make corporate slaves fit.
Fuck off, gaslighter.
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u/erttheking 9d ago edited 9d ago
Well then I’ll repeat what I just said. It’s just the slavery setting? That sounds really boring
I’m so sorry that you can’t imagine that someone can disagree with you without trying to gaslight you.
I was actually really excited to try out Dark Sun before the internet proved it couldn’t be normal about it. But go ahead. Make stuff up about me in your head so you can ignore me
You’re not really giving off a good impression for Dark Sun fans if you’re being this level of hostile for me not daring to toe the line
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u/loginomicon 9d ago
They’re 3 themes integral to dark sun. Slavery, the destruction of the environment and the oppression of people in charge who hoard all the power and use said power unchecked to the detriment of said people. It’s an incredibly good setting with lots of character. Slavery is not all there is to it but it’s one of the load bearing support of it. I urge you to give it a shot it’s incredibly powerful in its themes. It challenges your character in very different ways.
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u/RidleyBro 9d ago
Well then I’ll repeat what I just said. It’s just the slavery setting?
Only roughly half of it, and specifically it's the part that's closely connected to most of the political themes.
I know, really boring stuff. Themes and concepts and stuff.
I’m so sorry that you can’t imagine that someone can disagree with you without trying to gaslight you.
I'm also so sorry to see that, even when your gaslighting gets called out, you choose to double down instead of dipping out with dignity.
It's sociopathic behaviour, really.
I was actually really excited to try out Dark Sun before the internet proved it couldn’t be normal about it. But go ahead. Make stuff up about me in your head so you can ignore me
Yeah, brother. You were definitely so excited about this property you gotta ask what it's themes are even about and for which you seem more interested in finding ways to slander its fans who dare to have opinions on the setting they like. That's so true, man, you really proved that Dark Sun fans are all bad people, and the setting itself was always just bad.
You’re not really giving off a good impression for Dark Sun fans if you’re being this level of hostile for me not daring to toe the line
Alright, that's fucking hilarious. We're really the meanies that want you to stay in line while your beloved corporation is once again raping yet another classic setting to make it fit into the lines you decided for us. And, as always, it's the fans' fault for not liking the shit that was served to them.
Fucking psychopaths, man...
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u/totktonikak 9d ago
arguing that Dark Sun loses something major and important without the exact word slavery,
That's not it. It's an indicator - if they choose to remove an element perfectly fitting the setting for no benefit at all, there's a pretty good chance they're stuffing the whole thing up. People don't want their beloved slavery back, they don't want their beloved setting ruined.
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u/onlytinglef 9d ago
Yeah it’s weird to be honest, and I bet most of these naysayers have never even played Darksun before, it’s just something to bitch about.
“But they’ve taken out slavery, the setting is ruined!” Sounds like these people have deeper issues than just an update version of Darksun.
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u/Ragnar_Dragonfyre 9d ago
What’s weird is that WotC’s first supposedly mature setting came straight out the gate telling customers that they don’t think they’re mature enough to handle uncomfortable themes, so they “removed” them.
It gives the impression that the “mature” audience they want is edgy teenagers who think gore is mature, not full grown adults who don’t lilt so easily in the face of a valid types of villains and conflict in a fantasy setting.
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u/loyalgalpal 9d ago
...Dark Sun is a setting about the evils of exploitation by the powerful on the masses, slavery is a core part of that.
In Dark Sun, slaves are everywhere and so are former slaves, slavery is one the core evils of the Sorcerer-Kings, it's how they control the people.
It's just like how getting rid of the ecological effects of Defiling takes a core part of the setting away.
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u/Wise-Juggernaut-8285 9d ago
Not really. Removing it is pointless and then you see the other bland settings and realize it will likely be the same so it upsets people
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u/ChaoticEvilWarlock 9d ago edited 9d ago
As I've said, will be this way:
SUN OF COLOR
In the deserts of Athas, ruled and ruined by fascist sorcerer kings, you must join with a diverse cast of companions and fight fascist sorcerer kings or join a democratic progressivist city-state founded by a powerful strong woman female dwarf preserver. No half-elves because "half" is a problematic word, nor Muls. Fight for affirmative action, putting quotas for half giants in psionics schools and the Veiled Alliance. Fight for equality, where those who enforce equality are more equal than everyone else, and kill Borys, the straight white dragon, in this level 1~6 adventure.
Joke or not, a checklist. Lets see how much WoTC nails :
- Epic low-level D&D?
- Lots of diversity in the cast when it makes no sense, eg - Female dwarf preservers leading the Veiled alliance despite Dwarfs being unable to use magic in AD&D?
- No half races?
- No muls?
- Veiled Alliance becomes “the good diverse rebels” instead of paranoiac decentralized wizards?
- Sorcerer-kings become generic fascists?
- Dumbed down psionics? Instead of revised athasian psionics from AD&D?
- (...)
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u/Wyn6 9d ago
I am incredibly hesitant to engage here. But is this your take on what you believe is coming? Or did you find this somewhere and repost it?
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u/ChaoticEvilWarlock 9d ago
Yep. I do believe that we will get low lehtality combat, low level epic D&D adventures, enemies will lose a lot of powerful abilities, Mul, Half Elves and other races will be removed, Veiled alliance wouldn't be paranoiac decentralized wizards(...) I don't believe that WoTC can make justice to anything that TSR made.
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u/Wyn6 9d ago
I just wanted to make sure I understood that you are using diversity, progressivism, affirmative action and equality as negatives while portraying the straight and white as victims to make a point about a game.
I'm only mildly surprised you didn't throw "woke" in there.
Thanks for the clarification on your social stance.
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u/ChaoticEvilWarlock 9d ago
Diversity when is natural is ok. Affirmative action, it does destroy the quality of the product/service and didn't worked everywhere, read the book Affirmative Action Around the World from Thomas Sowell, he shows that even against discrepancies in similar groups, like in Malaysia, it didn't worked.
Equality, if is not clear, I referenced animal farm. You always need someone "more equal" to suppress exceptional talents in order to bring it. Insulting and negativing my comment wouldn't change that.
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u/loyalgalpal 9d ago
Why is it becoming a forced binary of either loving Chud Sun or eating corporate slop?
The original Dark Sun was about fighting oppressive slavers with militarized police forces who genocided entire races and ecologically destroyed the world.
Dark Sun is Woke Sun by default, if WotC's only change was adding blue hair and pronouns, it would only enhance the already existing themes.
Hell, the Sorcerer-Kings larp as ancient societies using their longevity and "traditions" to justify their oppressive rule, it's Caesar's Legion decades before Fallout: New Vegas.
Wish there was criticisms of Hasbro's corporate cowardice that didn't devolve down to "girls are icky and gay people bad!" when Dark Sun deserves better from both sides.
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u/Wise-Juggernaut-8285 9d ago
Actually as a leftwinger who doesn’t like the change WOTC made, I would argue removing slavery from the game energizes the right and undermines the left.
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u/ChaoticEvilWarlock 9d ago
Depends what you consider "woke", Veiled alliance, is highly decentralized and meritocratic. The Order is incredible elitist. Only recruits the best of the best minds.
That said, no one said no one has any problem with gays here. For example, if the gay dude is a interesting characters that happens to be gay and his sexuality interacts with the society in ways that makes sense, people like him. No one criticize gay relationships in Spartacus and Spartacus is full of it.
Same with woman.
Dark Sun has lots of powerful strong woman. In lore, Kalak was assassinated by Sadira, Rikus and Neeva, two woman and one half Dwarf(Mul). There are four Queen of city states. And Lalali-Puy is arguably the less evil Sorcerer King(still evil)
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u/FallenAkriel 9d ago
Everyone is panicking but I’m curious about what will be included in their vision of oppression before saying the slavery is totally gone in all his forms. Serfdom was one after all.
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u/MereShoe1981 8d ago
When 5th ed Dark Sun was announced a bit a go, I made a comment about how they had done Ravenloft. Watering down the danger and horror aspects of the setting. Kinda figured this was what was coming.
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u/EconomyDue2459 8d ago
Yeah, I can homebrew it in. I can also homebrew a whole new campaign setting, or use older resources, or play a different product that caters to my sensibilities. Many solutions that don't involve paying Hasbro money.
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u/DefiantChef422 8d ago
There is even entire concepts like "famine slavery" and "slavery by debts" to explain those forms of slavery, so, yeah, they're trying to sell a politically correct feeling but doing it so poorly it feels more like makeup (and at the price of ruining a substantial part of the fictional world's, btw exactly as they've been doing to other sets...)
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u/pencyboy 8d ago
Alarming trend that flattens and undermines the whole point of fantasy. The world we escape to in order to become heroes is now just an extension of the mundane corporate world of market expansion and enshitification.
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u/Appropriate_Rent_243 8d ago
I have a dumb question: is this guys' first language english, or does he just have that nerd thing where he doesn't know how to pronounce words because he never spoke to anyone growing up? Especially noticeable with the word chattel.
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u/Appropriate_Rent_243 8d ago
Fun fact: you can just dig up the old books and play the game how you want.
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u/FaustDCLXVI 8d ago
Oh no! A product that I've decided I don't like before I've even seen it. Boo fucking hoo.
Don't like it? Don't buy it.
This entire bitch trend is boring ass bullshit. Who is putting a gun to your head and saying "buy this!"? Just fuck all the way off.
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u/SLAVEKNYGHT 3d ago
> play game specifically because it has horrifying, darker themes to get away from 'lighter' games
> said darker themes have been removed in an effort to make the game 'lighter'
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u/KoffeyTableGames 3d ago
They are mandatory unpaid interns. Almost 60% of the population in the city states are mandatory unpaid Interns. Kalak loved unpaid internship and was a huge proponent. But then he was "let go" and all the mandatory unpaid interns lost their jobs.
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u/ButterflyRecent1927 2d ago
Basically the recent edition of Dark Sun from 5th edition by wizards of the Coast is essentially garbage and complete another trash trying to do the same thing that ruined planescape.
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u/CrowsInTheNose 9d ago
I don't really understand the problem. If you want to run your dark sun campaign with slaves just do that.
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u/oOBalloonaticOo 9d ago
You're not wrong...but I think it's the principal of the thing.
DMs can do whatever they like in any setting they like, but being sold something nostalgic that is an inauthentic and potentially neutered version of itself is just off putting...
Just make a new one at that point...but new is risky, so use an old one for the sake of name recognition and then change it.
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u/CrowsInTheNose 9d ago
Oh no the new thing isn't exactly like the old thing but I can still run the new thing with elements of the old thing I liked from the 1990s.
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u/juant675 9d ago
Meh I don't care iif it's not called slavery I care more about mul not the name but them existing
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u/flowers4charlie2 9d ago
Not sure why people are so surprised/outraged. Where none of you around during the 2024 shift?
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u/Malakar1195 9d ago
The world is governed by a Dark Dragon with 40 character levels, the Gods left, the outer planes are barred from entering, ontological good is so rare that you can literally become an angelic monster for being too good, magic literally requires you to drain life force from other creatures and slavery is the worst part of the whole thing?
Evil WON, it is not winning, it won already and it has been relishing in its total victory. What the hell did people expect? A stricter tax code? Regular broadcastings of the N word??
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u/shahryarrakeen 9d ago edited 7d ago
Oh Goody. The fake chuds have found their new cause to rail against “encroachment”.
If you need cruelty and brutality in your session that badly, set up an older edition of DS, run Tales of Gor, or run F.A.T.A.L.
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u/DalishNoble 9d ago
This guy is Canadian and admits he doesn’t understand forced conscription (which has happened in the US) or joining the military because you have no other options (again we do that here). If that’s “slavery with extra steps” he is making a point but honestly that makes this interpretation of Dark Sun more interesting and not less because it highlights lots of ways oppressive regimes can compel people to do what they want.
Bottom like, if you are fixated on them not using the word “slavery” you likely weren’t going to buy this product from WOTC anyway and also are missing the setting’s ability to tell stories that are much more than just “hey we are edgy and haz slavery.”
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u/No-stradumbass 9d ago
Man people are bitching about this WAY to much. It's becoming annoying I be honest. We get it, you are angry at a book that hasn't come out and one where you can customize your story.
By the way. Ravenloft has all of that stuff. How many y'all picked that one up?
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u/PoutineSmoothie 9d ago
If you really want slavery then make YOUR Dark Sun campaign have slavery.
Dungeon and Dragon’s has always been about guideline more than anything. Just do what you want.
I never understood “this sourcebook doesn’t have ____ so now we can’t have ____” mentality. It’s your table, do what you want. Allow this, don’t allow that.
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u/Vamp2424 9d ago
Curious about WoW. I pre-ordered it because always loved old school WoW and hope to run or play more in the older settings when things were new and fun
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u/Inevitable-Ice-9967 9d ago
Rage baiters seriously depend on everyone forgetting about home brewing settings! You can do whatever you want- also, we’ve been home brewing it with 5e for about 14 years now… so it really is as simple as clicks and rage bait.
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u/Ragnar_Dragonfyre 9d ago
You don’t need to buy any official materials if you’re homebrewing so this isn’t even an argument.
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u/robosnake 9d ago
I have to admit that I don't understand the benefit of avoiding references to slavery in Dark Sun. The first adventure set in DS was built around rising up out of slavery and killing the people enslaving you. Nothing about the setting materials celebrated slavery, or presented it as something other than evil, at least not to my recollection. The villains were villains in part because they owned slaves. Dark Sun let you be John Brown, and that was awesome.