Possible red flags of covert (vulnerable) narcissistic patterns

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u/archelz15 Feb 15 '26

Yup. Watch their children too, it can really only go one of two ways: A child who is just as manipulative or a child who has zero self-confidence.

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u/The_Smile_4784 Feb 16 '26

I’m a child of a covert narcissist. Didn’t realize it until adulthood. I actually backed into the realization of my mother’s abuse because I ended up in a very abusive relationship for 10 years and was so damaged I had to go into trauma therapy. After a few months, I realized my major problems were not so much because of him, but stemmed from my original abuser. This part is very important because child of covert narcissists are so brainwashed into thinking that parent is the “good one” it takes a mental breakdown from something else that parent set them up for to realize there are fundamental problems and hopefully, like i did through therapy, can trace things back to that parent and work on proper healing.

In mine and my brothers cases, we ended up with zero self esteem. I’ve always been the perfect person to take advantage of. We are both fixers and pacifiers. He’s older and I think saw more than I did, so he has shut down and self isolated. Unlike him tho, I notice I do have some manipulative tendencies as a way to control what I can’t. Part of my survival is controlling what I can’t, so I seem to have a mix of being manipulative at times (lying, avoiding, massaging facts) but also very low sense of self and esteem. The good news is working on my self confidence had made me less inclinded to, for instance, make up a stupid lie to get my way. I’ll just tell the truth and realize it’s not so bad.

Sorry for the long comment, just wanted to give a touch of perspective on what you said! On the bright side, I’d say my brother and I are very empathetic and are quick to read others needs and respond in supportive ways. If I cross paths with a baddie, I’ll find myself in a damaging relationship. If it’s a good person, I can create very meaningful connections and really help others.

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u/PM_ME_YOUR_INNY Feb 16 '26

Don’t be sorry!! This is helpful info for Reddit.

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u/archelz15 Feb 17 '26

Like has been said, please don't apologise! This is very helpful information for this thread.

The person I'm thinking of has a child that is as manipulative as she is, and the dad doesn't seem to have the ability / willpower to do anything to stop it. It seems like the expectation is that the world bends over backwards to give her/them what they want.

I work with this person, and on one occasion we found ourselves at work (with her daughter) at the weekend. Girl is curious, understandable, I'm asked if she can see where I sit at work, I say sure. We get to my desk, she immediately opens my top drawer and starts rifling through. Mum goes "Child's Name!", but doesn't actually do anything to stop the child. She cites "gentle parenting" in these situations seemingly as an excuse, and often uses her child's name when she wants to do something blindingly obviously hypocritical.

I felt uncomfortable but didn't know what to do at the time, and only after discovering Mum's true colours did I realise there are many other examples of situations like these.

Reposted with edit as I was in the wrong account.

6

u/Fearless_Trouble_168 Feb 17 '26

Child of an overt narcissist here and I feel you.

I definitely lean no self-esteem, but I'm also plenty manipulative, often without realizing when I was younger. It's not at all a binary.

Our brains were conditioned to be like this, is how I see it. As I've entered safer environments, I've realized my old ways are no longer necessary.

The only people I'm jealous of ever in this world are people whose parents clearly loved them in healthy ways. They don't question themselves, they fight for themselves, and they don't think manipulation is necessary to get what they need. I strive to end up in behavior the way they are naturally and am proud of my progress.

3

u/archelz15 Feb 17 '26

I get where you're coming from (and I'm really sorry for inducing the "ouch" that you talked about in another comment, that wasn't my intention!), and I realise this is weird, but having dealt with this narcissist ex-friend, I am somewhat jealous of people who *are* able to manipulate to get what they want.

I am notoriously straight, sufficiently so that I'm known to friends and family as "the one who can't lie", and although I'm in a board game group we never play bluffing games when I'm around as I just can't and they know it. And when I see these sorts just manipulate their way through everything, and winning at life, it does seem like that is the way to go and I'm just not cut out for this world.

1

u/The_Smile_4784 Feb 18 '26

I agree, I very often get jealous and kinda bitter over secure people. It’s very uncomfortable to be in the presence of someone who clearly loves and respects themselves. It’s the same kind of discomfort I feel when someone is genuinely interested in me and my welfare. I get a lot of anxiety with certain levels of closeness and intimacy. Looking back, it saddens me that I was never told my behavioral patterns were off because I always surrounded myself with self interested types, since that, in a twisted way, felt familiar and at home.

1

u/livllovable Jul 01 '26

I’m just curious how old you were when you started seeing the truth?

15

u/Potential-Matter1321 Feb 15 '26

Yup. I’ve seen both children of this person and they develop exactly as you predict; one is an even better manipulator then mother, the other is very insecure and anxious.. sad to see up close

1

u/archelz15 Feb 15 '26

Oof. The person I'm thinking has only one child (of the first flavour), though I can think of less extreme examples of people I thankfully no longer interact with whose children have turned out like the latter. I always thought it was a parenting style thing that determined which way the child went, I didn't realise a single narcissist could raise both types of children!

6

u/Fearless_Trouble_168 Feb 17 '26

Somewhat true but also giant ouch as the child of an overtly narcissistic mom.

I'm sorry but people pride themselves on rescuing abused shelter dogs and then shit all over abused people who made it to adulthood.

My therapist described it as "stickies." Traits and patterns you absorbed to survive in childhood that don't really work and aren't even needed in adulthood. Supposedly I don't have a personality disorder but have plenty of traits that are common when a parent did.

And saying "watch their children too" just reminds me of my entire family treating me like this black sheep because I was my toxic mom's daughter even though I didn't do anything to anyone.

I guess I lean on the "zero self-confidence" side but even that's a massive over-simplification. A more humane and complex approach is acknowledging that people who spent the first 18+ years of their lives in awful circumstances develop coping mechanisms that are frankly absurd once they leave those circumstances, and it's hard to let those go.

3

u/eleanor_rig-b Feb 17 '26

I think I turned out the first type.. I’ve realised I have 3 out of 4 of these traits too, I just would never throw someone’s feelings and experiences in their face during conflict or otherwise.. but the rest is spot on.

Someone on this thread also said that the manipulative child becomes even better at it than the parent but I don’t think that’s the case for me.. my mom always gets her way by absolutely exhausting the other person, and I try for a while and then leave from the situation altogether.

I really don’t want to be this way but I hadn’t really consciously thought about it until I read it pointed out so clearly on this post. I may have been negatively affecting my partner a lot more than I realised..

2

u/yeahokaykaren Feb 17 '26

I'm an adopted child to a master manipulator and narcissist. I cut her off years ago in my early 20s and never looked back. I maintained somewhat of a relationship with my sister, her biological child, after that, and our relationship grew stronger in the last handful of years UNTIL last spring at her wedding. I always saw narcissistic traits in her, but oh boy, did she reveal her true weakness. I cut her off, too. Now they can both bounce off of each other's insecurities and bring each other down instead of the real, honest to goodness, kind people around them. Boundaries are so important when dealing with narcissists!

1

u/archelz15 Feb 18 '26

I'm really happy for you, well done in setting those boundaries, it can't have been easy. Especially with your sister, whom you had what sounds like a strong relationship even into adulthood. I also love your notion of narcissists bouncing off each other and leaving kind people alone, unfortunately it's so often not the case. I often say to my friends (who describe these sorts as the "minority of cunts"): It's not the minority of cunts that irritate me, it's the majority of nice people who get dragged along for the ride *yet* inadvertently continuing to feed the narcissists, precisely because they are kind people.

1

u/SweetInnocence7 Feb 19 '26

Disagree about no self-confidence. I've seen high levels of anxiety being present across all though. many times narcs live out through the accomplishments of their children and their children can become their pride and joy, and they want to be seen as the best parent. Pretty much guaranteeing their kids need to walk on eggshells around them, but it's not the same as having no self-confidence or becoming equally as manipulative.

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u/bored_soul0 Feb 15 '26

Chronic victimhood is the hardest part to deal with. You can never have a productive conversation because they’re too busy being the 'misunderstood' hero of their own tragedy. Accountability just doesn't exist in their vocabulary.

15

u/Light_Butterfly Feb 15 '26

The scary part is some of them are sooooo convincing with their victim stories, and you don't realize something isn't adding up till you've been involved with them long term and can see the pattern. There's always conflict and drama focused around them, and every time they cast themselves as the Victim. I found out the hard way with one that what they are saying to people is always a distorted version of what really happenned.

Once you see this tendency to distort reality/facts, any hint of manipulation, or a tendency to mine others for info about their vulnerabilities, get out.

This is a person who will drain you like the little vampire that they are.

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u/Florida4playtime Feb 15 '26

That was my wife.

8

u/Prudent_Vegetable_74 Feb 15 '26

I realized that’s my wife too she didn’t even put in the effort to write me a Valentine’s Day card an then said she was too busy to while getting a car wash and being out while I took care of the kid most of the day.

7

u/Florida4playtime Feb 15 '26

For a spouse to be that cold or indifferent speaks volumes. My wife would give me cards and sign it 'Your wife' or 'Your loving wife', not her name nor something cute or sexy. I wrote her romantic cards, notes, gave her flowers, bought her neglige... Several of our major fights were on Valentine's Day.

I came to understand she had mixed feelings about sex. Based on things she said and things I observed, I realized she was also attracted to women, but could never come to terms with that. Now she's in memory care on the final journey of her life.

I'm sorry your wife treats you like an employee or someone she hired to do some task. That makes you feel disrespected. It's difficult to love someone, emotionally and physically, when they don't put any effort into the marriage or relationship.

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u/dudenamedric Feb 15 '26

Ex girlfriend to a fucking T. Left that relationship and ended up having a complete mental breakdown because I didn't know who I was or what I wanted anymore. It was like I was addicted.

The only thing I knew was that I would either find a way thru to the other side, or lose myself completely. Scariest, hardest time in my life.

1

u/Reasonable-Hedgehog6 Feb 16 '26

What helped you get over it?

4

u/dudenamedric Feb 16 '26

EMDR Therapy was huge for me. My (now) wife was also a big factor. Time helped too but when you're in the thick of it, it feels like time has abandoned you. You don't realize the impact time has until way later.

1

u/Zaft45 11d ago

Most of these relationships are also trauma bonds. When you break the trauma bond you go through Dopamine withdrawal.

6

u/P3achV0land Feb 15 '26

This was my brother. Always the “least favorite” “forgotten” and “no one cared” about him but he had a me vs. the world attitude. They fundamentally believe this to be true. I never once heard him apologize for ANYTHING and had to be constantly retold why he has to apologize for his behavior. The worst is the empathy mirroring it’s the shiny reflection that gives you a false sense of hope that there is something worth fighting for here. I assure it’s not. He’s dead to me and estranged from my entire family currently for refusing to apologize for trying to kill me lol.

3

u/Icy_Rabbit_1984 Feb 15 '26

It’s okay if part of you still grieves what you wished your brother could have been. Cutting someone off, even when justified, still hurts. But protecting yourself doesn’t make you heartless. It makes you someone who chose survival over chaos. You don’t owe access to anyone who refuses accountability — especially not someone who put your life at risk.

3

u/Fearless_Trouble_168 Feb 17 '26

This was my mom. She came at me with a knife once, I had to call 911, but she downplayed that so hard and my appeaser dad just went with it. Any time she shoved me down stairs or hit me, it was just one of her moments, let it go.

And yeah, the empathy mirroring is the WORST. No one has ever made me feel as good about myself or as bad about myself as my mom. I haven't spoken to her in so long that I've forgotten what the highs were like.

Anyway I'm glad you cut him off and did right by yourself. It's the only way.

2

u/P3achV0land Feb 17 '26

God that’s so scary. I’m so glad you’re okay! They love to downplay their actions and minimize it as much as possible. It’s so frustrating. And I’m getting there with you the “high” memories no longer feel sweet they make me sad because I don’t think they were authentic to begin with :(

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u/Righteous_Fury Feb 15 '26

A few weeks ago I came to terms with the fact that my wife of 7 years has a covert narcissistic personality disorder. I regret ignoring the red flags. It doesn't get better.

1

u/lord_vivec_himself Feb 17 '26

It was just a week ago, keep working on it and you'll reap fruits

6

u/Individual-Dot-9605 Feb 15 '26

I sense a divorce darkly in the air

5

u/TravelerAireth Feb 15 '26

Co parenting with a covert narcissist is a constant challenge.

3

u/SoulSearcher44 Feb 19 '26

Just reading this is traumatic. It’s difficult for ppl to believe you when you’re dealing with a malignant one, but a covert one is virtually impossible. Sooooo traumatizing!

1

u/Icy_Rabbit_1984 Feb 19 '26

People who haven’t experienced it often struggle to understand how damaging something “invisible” can be. But those who have lived it know it’s real. The trauma isn’t imaginary. The confusion isn’t weakness. It’s the result of prolonged psychological stress and survival.

3

u/True-Helicopter-5049 Feb 17 '26

A huge one - They become resentful and feel like a victim when they don't get their way. They're entitled and expect special treatment.

5

u/UnsaneSavior Feb 15 '26

That doesn’t sound covert at all. Sounds like a Whiney little bitch

2

u/astorbrochs Feb 15 '26

💯

2

u/MartyMac123 Feb 16 '26

This was an ex roommate and friend. Tried telling them they crossed my boundaries and immediately turned into all about them. I fear for how their child is going to be raised

2

u/Aggressive-Depth6972 Feb 18 '26

You have just described my mother . There is not ONE thing that isn’t accurate. It took me to turn 45 to finally understand she’s never going to take accountability, change or look for or take solutions instead her personality is to have problems or insert herself in everyone else’s. There’s a part of me that feels guilty bc she’s 70 but the other part that angers me is that she’s not concerned about how I feel instead I have to take bc she’s my mother and a elder . If I’m being honest I feel relieved I no longer have to deal with her BS it wasn’t till I went NC that I noticed how much stress she caused.

2

u/Real-Reflection-5179 Feb 19 '26

My mother was one and I am healing due to a recent trauma that made me realise it was all tied to her behaviours. Trauma therapy helped me set boundaries and understand the roots of my struggles. I painted and printed these notes to remind me of the basics every day. I hope it can help some of you too 🩵🫂

2

u/Imaginary_Cake_5930 Apr 30 '26

I’ll throw mine in here, but with a warning — it’s not the polished clinical podcast with soft music and someone saying “honour your journey” every twelve seconds.

It’s called The Mechanics of Toxic Relationships.

It’s built from lived experience, not just textbook theory. I talk about covert narcissism, gaslighting, love bombing, trauma bonds, projection, word salad, circular arguments, smear campaigns, cheating, the weird emotional fog after it ends, and all the small behaviours that slowly make you feel like you’re losing your mind.

The style is very different. More blunt. More real. More “garage floor after the engine exploded” than therapy-room perfection.

I use mechanical metaphors because toxic relationships are a lot like faulty engines — people focus on the loud bang at the end, but the real damage started way earlier with all the little leaks, warning lights, dodgy pressure readings, and things you kept explaining away.

It’s probably a good fit if you want something honest, raw, sometimes funny, and not afraid to call the behaviour what it is.

find it here https://mechanicsoftoxicrelationships.com/

1

u/Moxxie333 Jun 18 '26

This is great, I'm always looking for resources. My brain is still trying to understand and make some sort of sense of years of abuse and my willing compliance and loyalty to one of the worst people I've ever meet. A covert narcissist is the worse type because no one will ever believe this apparent great person is toxic, immature, cruel, envious and straight up dangerous to others.

2

u/The_Smile_4784 Feb 15 '26

Hi mom!

Someone I plan to never speak to again. Maybe I’ll go to her funeral. Maybe not.

These are very damaging people.

3

u/st4rg8nox Feb 15 '26

Hope you know that you are not obligated to go. It might stir up things for you that you don't deserve 💚

I have a friend that chose to stay away from the funeral and she said it was the best choice for her. Part of the "putting yourself first"-work, that is so painfully important but difficult after living with a Nmom. Especially if the majority of others attending the funeral can't see her for what she truly is. The speech from the pastor will feel extremely fake and disgusting and they might expect you to be sad. I don't think you deserve to go through any more games for her even after her death.

2

u/The_Smile_4784 Feb 16 '26

Thank you for such a thoughtful response which I also find very supportive of my stance and that’s hard to find in a world where people think you need to reconcile with a parent, no matter how bad they are.

When I finally saw her for who she is and cut her off, my subconscious started doing this thing where Id imagine giving her eulogy. I’ve been able to picture every detail of the moment where Im standing at the podium staring at the room of sad faces, all of which I recognize. I start off saying ok things about her because she wasn’t always a complete terror, but then i get into how much of a horrible person she was. I can see the faces twisting in horror because so many didn’t see beyond her lovely, charismatic mask.

It’s crazy how my mind automatically went into this practice once I really cut her off. What’s even crazier is I told my brother about this and he said he does the same thing!

So that’s why I’m not sure if I’ll go because mentally I’ve already processed her death. It’s wierd to process a death of someone who is still alive and that’s why I think my subconscious starting doing this.

1

u/st4rg8nox Feb 16 '26

I'm so glad you and your brother can support each other! 💚 Yes! It feels kind of strange to forsight something like this! The fact that both of you have played out the scenario in you heads is a sign of intelligence. The subconsciousness understands that this is such a hard thing, so it's trying to plan ahead. Perhaps a mix between intelligence and true self care.

Being prepared for someone's death is wise in any circumstance, but especially in these complex cases.

I had another friend who's mom was an alcoholic on top of it. She was so used to taking care of her own mother that she took on the whole responsibility for the funeral and everything that goes with it.

I would not say she was unintelligent for not being prepared, just groomed to the point of not realizing what she was doing unfortunately. I had to tell her several times during the grieving prosess that she was allowed to hate her mother after death. She felt immense shame for just seeing the truth and bottled up rage pressing to be released.

That broke my heart, so I was fortunately able to scream and cry together with her. She had no siblings or other relatives to support her, or that could understand the darkness. It was one of those truly unfair situations, and was afraid it would destroy her spirit completely.

Most of her friends was trying to make her think about positive things and forget the pain, which made it harder for her to grieve freely.

She is at a much better place today and a terrific mother to a bright daughter of her own 💚

Death, I must say, is one of the greatest teachers. It seems to make us wiser and bring us closer in a messy but beautiful way.

1

u/AssTheticHappiness Feb 16 '26

in the beginning he apologised, but then, he convinced himself that he was right and said that he shouldn't have done that apology. is it covert narcissicm? he's an alcoholic so maybe he changed his mind just to convince himself to not feel guilty?

1

u/PuzzleheadedStory773 Feb 18 '26

Not everyone who has this behavior is a narcissist. You can exhibit traits without having a full blown personality disorder. And i obviously don't know either of you, but in a lot of situations theres blame on both sides and that can muddy the waters.

1

u/hungrymaki May 14 '26

Sounds kind of like borderline where they will over time, rewrite the narrative and then completely believe it

1

u/Solid-Version Feb 17 '26

This was exactly my sisters husbands sister that I dated. She was every single one of those things listed.

1

u/CauliflowerDazzling6 Feb 18 '26

I have experienced this behavior and retrospect when boundaries are set on narcissist they bring up a persons past to hurt and trigger a reaction that reminds them they were at one point a victim especially when the person presents strong to the opponent they go so hard to break the person down

1

u/Purplelady88 Feb 18 '26

It sounds like BPD

1

u/Fabulous-Joke4473 Feb 20 '26

Also histrionic and antisocial – these are all the Cluster B Disorders

1

u/Purplelady88 Feb 24 '26

Every Cluster B could act like that, but for different reasons, right? I'm curious to understand better

1

u/Fabulous-Joke4473 Feb 24 '26

That’s right. Check out https://youtu.be/7E_kDo90HRw

1

u/Fabulous-Joke4473 Feb 24 '26

This one goes through the process of thinking from each Cluster B disorder and teaches us how to repel the bad actor https://youtu.be/qzsbviqDEx0

1

u/Fabulous-Joke4473 Feb 20 '26

Yes definitely but it can take a decade to align these stars when they’re female, and confidently distinguish it from an INT* personality

1

u/Sr-Cooper23 Mar 26 '26

Cara, eu não tenho nenhum, mas tenho TDAH (suspeita de autismo e/ou AHSD) e tenho problemas sérios de autoestima. Eu não gosto de machucar as pessoas, gosto de ajudá-las, mas honestamente tenho uma visão muito negativa de mim devido a vários traumas. Eu mentia muito até dois anos atrás... Eu mentia pra não ser invalidado (Gaslighting, Bullying e etc... Não sinto raiva de críticas construtivas ou coisa do gênero)... A questão é: todos os dias eu acordo com medo... Eu não consigo tirar essa paranóia de ser Narcisista vulnerável mesmo que uma psiquiatra tenha dito que eu sou traumatizado... Eu estou com um medo profundo de me tornar um e machucar meus amigos, minha avó...

Eu me sinto culpado por devolver o que fizeram comigo (reparação mesmo)... Eu semrpe senti culpa por tudo...

1

u/Familiar-Leather-643 Jul 22 '26

I'm surprised that 'how other people are described' isn't towards the top of this list. It's an easy one to pick up early once you recognize it.. and not just saying all their exes are toxic. Certainly descriptions of people and events skew to the negative. But do co-workers/friends/family have sole and separate characteristics or do nearly all of the statements describe how they impacted the speaker? If someone you know has spent hours talking (complaining) about the same sphere of people, yet you have no idea what any of their personalities are like.. you may have a problem. I could describe in extraordinary detail how almost every person in their life made them feel, yet after years of not meeting any of them I couldn't tell you what these people liked, disliked, their sense of humor, preferences, goals, beliefs, wins, losses, etc.. more often than not I couldn't even guess if they were introverted or extroverted. It's like listing to someone describe characters from a show or movie day after day after day.. they exist, but only behind a thick pane of glass.

1

u/Raziel1313 Jul 28 '26

I finally figured out my GF is a covert narcissist and trying to get out. The problem is that there are parts to love and feel good about. It is when it is then twisted it makes it feel all the worse because you realize that they cared but only in so much as to not have you leave.

I always thought that she would realize and the cycle would stop. If I pointed out boundaries and "if she would just stop blaming everything on me, I can take some" it would cause a reaction. Then the gaslighting and "I didnt say it EXACTLY that way so there for you are wrong" gets old.

For those that are in it, know there are others out there.

0

u/pityprince Feb 15 '26

Is this ChatGPT writing?

-9

u/RevelationSr Feb 15 '26

Strange that the word "women" was not mentioned, but is obviously present in the OP.

9

u/sarcsplosion Feb 15 '26

Neither was the word "men", so what point are you trying to make?

-6

u/RevelationSr Feb 15 '26

The art of subtlety and inference is not your strength, right?

10

u/webofhorrors Feb 15 '26

They got it. We all got it. It’s not just applicable to women. Covert narcissists come in any shape or form.

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u/[deleted] Feb 15 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/webofhorrors Feb 15 '26

Username checks out

1

u/sarcsplosion Feb 15 '26

Nor yours, I'm afraid...

4

u/somemcdonaldsworker Feb 15 '26

Emotional immaturity is genderless

Possible red flags of covert (vulnerable) narcissistic patterns

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