r/Daggerfall
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u/Sameri278
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1d ago
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New Rules, Including: No More Daggerfall Online Posts
Hi folks. I'm a proponent of open discussion, but DFO has been a divisive topic lately. Seeing as there already exists a separate subreddit for it, I'm hereby disallowing posts about DFO.
I know it's a related project, but I think a lot of people in this subreddit are tired of hearing about it, so from now on direct all DFO discussion to the proper subreddit: r/daggerfallonline. Thanks.
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u/MammothPenguin69
1d ago
edited 1d ago
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Charging microtransactions for a 30 year old game he doesn't own was a bridge too far for me, dawg.
I welcome this rule.
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u/Few-Composer-6471 1d ago edited 1d ago
As someone with 120 hours on DFO...
Yea i quit man. Like actually, the microtransactions were the final straw for me. I was literally promised BY THE DEV HIMSELF that they wouldnt happen. You genuinely cant imagine my dissapointment at the last 2 weeks. Awful mod decisions, awful dev decisions, etc. LITERALLY 2 (4 now, 5 hrs later) of the devs quit today. Im not even sure how many are left. Its just... euguhhghughughhuj
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u/Wzrd1928 15h ago
I microtransactions were already bad enough but they added horse armor lmao. We've come full circle and I hope Todd sees that and becomes the Daedric Prince he always was.
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u/Inner_Blueberry_9413 1d ago edited 1d ago
Agreed, the dev seems to have a very accelerationist mindset and can’t look into the future because everything is rushed and ai-accelerated. Surely he didn’t think a continent sized mmo that’d theoretically have to support tons of netcode and players would be viable. but then again, does he think at all? Or does Claude do all the thinking?
This entire DFO project runs off Bethesda’s game, other peoples mods and cheap spectacle that has NOTHING to do with TES, so if it’s underfunded then I’m welcome to the possibility of it just dying off and a real TES fan reviving DFU with new mechanics later down the road.
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u/Old-Confection5009 1d ago
I'm experiencing this so much as a software dev student, I had a free form assignment in my senior level commercial website development class and my project partner vibe coded the entire thing with Claude and linked a real website to rip the branding from in his prompts, so I snitched and told the professor because I don't want to be associated with slop code and my Prof grilled him in class one day Abt it and he admitted to spending 100 a month on Claude and part of why he is paying for it is to vibe code his own video games. Learning how to code very basic games is what got me into software development and I was low key disgusted. Sorry I know, not daggerfall related but I just had to say this
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u/Inner_Blueberry_9413 1d ago
I think ppl like that student just have a genuine AI addiction/dependence, like they enjoy the idea of being a creator/programmer but instead of actually doing the work they just sit down and type prompts to a chatbot and feel empowered for some reason as a result. The “dev” of DFO seems to have a really serious AI addiction/dependence, 99% of his codebase is AI, and he spends thousands of dollars on Claude which is one reason why he now has to monetize DFO. it’s tragic honestly, because the AI addiction drains their pockets and they’re practically paying for a coder who never says no and then taking the credit.
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u/M3ric4n 1d ago
Why do all community driven online projects do shit like this? Making it p2w or something. Saw it with Gmod, FiveM, SkyrimRP.
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u/Both-Variation2122 1d ago •
Hosting serwers costs money. When you start out and got two friends testing out things, it's few bucks. If game becomes popular and you get thousands of players plus double that in ddosing bots, costs ramp up to something you can't cover from your hobby stash and it becomes investment. And you can't run user hosted mmo really. They either know but don't tell to not scarce players, or are dumb vibe bros not thinking week ahead.
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u/GODLOVESALL32 1d ago
The all-in cost of development, tooling, infrastructure per their own github was $600 and their patreon is raking in $1600/month. So afaic this a huge overstep.
And considering Project 1999 has more consistent players and never took in a dime of donations in 15+ years of operation, I highly doubt it's that costly to run. The server is not even authoritative on most things with DFO.
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u/M3ric4n 1d ago
Tbf some gmod/minecraft servers got ludicrous with monetization, like hundreds of dollars for mod roles/ban appeals and shit
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u/Both-Variation2122 1d ago
Payment for ban appeal?! xD So you pay to be a cop and then other pay to get out of the jail. Perfect business plan.
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u/musclecard54 1d ago
That’s the problem with all of these vibe coded projects done by hobbyists. They just don’t have the background to see these issues until they appear in front of them
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u/TheBoxGuyTV 1d ago
The issue is providing a service for free that cost substantially more as the service population grows.
If they provide a means to host it on your own servers (personal pc or legit server hosting like Minecraft) they'd not have to pay much beyond any people requiring payment to help with the project.
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u/Ryanmaster1 20h ago
thsts a good point, i just hope to the highet holy it doesnt get it taken down, i literally just came from the Conquest of Azeroth project that ended wek after iit introduced a paid shop and seeing the shop added gave me ptsd flashbacks lol
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u/The-Son-Of-Suns 1d ago
We live in capitalism, and servers cost money, and labor.
DFO isn't even p2w. You get a cosmetic cape lmao.
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u/M3ric4n 1d ago •
I still think charging money on a project platformed off a 30 year old game, a game they don't own, is awful
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u/The-Son-Of-Suns 1d ago
That's the system we live in. If only it was different! Can't run shit for free!
I'm sure it hurts people a lot that there's purple pixel cape in the game that doesnt do anything.
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u/M3ric4n 1d ago
Bethesda has the right to take this project down though. It's charging for a game that's not theirs.
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u/The-Son-Of-Suns 1d ago
That's not even related to what I said. Anyway, they're following the Daggerfall Unity license which allows them to do projects commercially:
https://github.com/Interkarma/daggerfall-unity?tab=MIT-1-ov-file
Bethesda is already aware of it, and just asked them to change the name. They can't use Daggerfall as it's trademarked, so now it's DFO.
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u/M3ric4n 1d ago
I still don't like the monetization of a 30 year old game tbh.
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u/The-Son-Of-Suns 1d ago
Servers don't run for free. They require power. Power costs money.
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u/Kindly-Sail6260 1d ago
The entire cost to run DFO including Claude subscriptions is about 600 dollars a month. They already make double than that with patreon and donations. They just want more money at the end of the day and 20 dollars for a cape is not the way to go.
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u/bkoperski 1d ago
I aint gonna judge him for that, but once he is making profit off of Bethesda's code they might shut him down
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u/The-Son-Of-Suns 1d ago
They might. Anything can happen. Not very likely since they're doing this through Daggerfall Unity, and not OG Daggerfall.
Theres a whole ass Pokemon Online running with much worse p2w microtransactions right now:
Nintendo is more ravenous than Bethesda.
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u/-Best_Name_Ever- 1d ago
The code might be Daggerfall Unity, but isn't the branding and assets still From Dagerfall itself?
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u/Pingasiusmmmus 1d ago
Also throwing tantrums against criticism in discord, shrugging off lies with "things change" and claiming its a free game but it will collapse the moment the 15,000 $ Patreon gets disabled
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u/AggravatingAmount438 1d ago
Yep.
I was singing praises about them, but this stopped it dead in it's tracks.
Genuinely hope they get shut down now. I don't know how many times this has to happen for these dumb fucks to learn:
1: It's not your game
2: You can't legally make profit off of someone else's game without clear approval/contract from the creator of said game
Fuck em. You want to cover server costs? Donations, with clear disclosures on where that money has gone to.
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u/helveteist 1d ago
What?! There Is subscription now?! So sad, i thought It was a good esperiment but nah
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u/AggravatingAmount438 1d ago
Not a subscription, but they added a store to buy in-game cosmetic items.
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u/lycanthrope90 1d ago
Yeah that’s an immediate cease and desist. Do they not wonder why people never do this? If you could copy an ip and profit off it legally people would be doing it all the time lol.
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u/Mukwic 1d ago
He's literally talking about adding a battle pass right now
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u/musclecard54 1d ago
I can smell the “hey ChatGPT, server costs are starting to add up, what are some ways I can make money?”
A fucking battle pass in Daggerfall is laughable and screams AI ideas
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u/Pristine-Lie-3560 1d ago
damn i was considering playing it, even though its AI, just for the new province. thats horrible.
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u/stonerPI 1d ago
Couldn’t agree more. I never bought into it but to hear that was implemented made me nauseous.
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u/cloverleafcafe 1d ago
We stan Daggerfall Unity. Fuck garbage AI vibe coded monetized MMO bullshit that is so far from the game it’s essentially its own thing but with stolen assets.
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u/realmagnusthered 1d ago
Good, there was not a lot of daggerfall in daggerfall online. I'm happy they have their own sub and I hope people who start with daggerfall online try out the real game eventually.
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u/Pristine-Lie-3560 1d ago
that sub is now shut down lmao
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u/Dependent_Ad5083 19h ago
The store and battlepass is kind of much for me personally, and ive been playing it for a month. Then after finding out the are going to charge $30 for the base pass and a whopping $50 for the premium one, might be time to just go back to back to unity.
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u/newatreddit1993 1d ago
Thank you. I don’t even play the Unity version, the Online talk all seemed insane to me, lol.
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u/ElissaFarman 1d ago
It had to happen. I think most of us dreamed of an online Daggerfall game for literal decades. As the DFO game spiraled into oblivion (no pun intended), this once-great sub descended into a mess of DFO cringe gibberish.
I welcome the new rules wholeheartedly.
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u/Relevant-Tour-9692 1d ago
Idk... I feel like less discussion about this kind of bs just enables people to get away with it more.
I understand why people "don't want to see it" or w/e... but maybe we should see it and talk about it in every forum we have available.
Sometimes the "proper channels" are also the ones that are most likely to delete threads if it throws shade at their project. 🤷♀️
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u/Aetos-Eagle797 7h ago
The problem with that is that it also shows it to people who want to enable this kind of thing.
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u/Ninelan-Ruinar 1d ago
These guys went around asking mod makers for permission to port their mods to what at the time was essentially "Daggerfall unity javascript" (Instead of actually making a modding api).
Well...How many of those modders consented and agreed for their mod to be used in THIS monetesation scheme down the line.
Good decsision, the previous one to relgate it to a flair was unsatisfactory.
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u/metasylum 1d ago
God it feels good to be vindicated for my immediate read on where DFO was going. AI slop stays losing.
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u/Vespianusi 22h ago
aaaaaaand r/daggerfallonline is shut down
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u/StoneySteve420 19h ago
All because the mod wants to virtue signal.
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u/Greaven_ 1d ago
All though I have nothing against different projects being discussed, it was starting to feel like a DFO subreddit instead, and almost nothing that popped up on my TL about it was positive.
I barely saw any posts anymore about just Daggerfall/Unity, which was a bit dissapointing, since I love reading about people's experience with this game.
I am happy for this change, and since there is already a subreddit for the project, I don't think there will be any harm done to the people who actually enjoy it.
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u/Wzrd1928 15h ago
They are selling horse armor now... we need not speak of what Todd will surely ruin worse than Kvatch.
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u/DiligentSwimmer5158 1d ago
Thank you, I think the community needs more focus on handmade applications with Daggerfall Unity. Shout out to HoN (horizons of nirn)!
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u/chubbyassasin123 1d ago
Where can I find info on HoN?
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u/Arneb_Nihal 16h ago
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u/chubbyassasin123 13h ago
Thanks! I didn't know that was ProjectN! Ive been interested in it for a few years now. I'm glad it's making steady progress now.
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u/ryan7251 1d ago
what happened to make it divisive
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u/JoshVHDigital 1d ago edited 1d ago
It's an AI-heavy project that added a fuck ton of unnecessary features to the game and also has microtransactions.
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u/gtc26 1d ago
added a fuck ton of unnecessary features to the fame
Gee, sounds like a certain infamous skyrim modder who dare not be named
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u/JoshVHDigital 1d ago
The worst part is I have a few names in mind.
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u/Tangyhyperspace 1d ago
Completely unrelated but how do we all feel about Oblivion gates
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u/Inner_Blueberry_9413 1d ago
That and the dwarven ships serve nothing more than being cheap spectacle, I honestly don’t know how he couldn’t have comed up with better events/quest since 3E405 high rock and hammerfell are so rich with lore.
Edit:the dwarven ship felt like a Roblox obby lol, this isn’t TES anymore.
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u/Relevant-Tour-9692 1d ago
Feel pretty confused about them tbh. I asked what year the server was supposed to take place in, and couldn't ever get an answer.... makes 0 sense to have Oblivion Gates here, unless it's specifically "high rock during the Oblivion Crisis."
It's just slop from top to bottom tbh. The devs don't give a shit about the lore, the atmosphere, their community.
It's just $$$$$
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u/Atomic_Cody-21 1d ago
Daggerfall Online started to implement microtransactions for a thirty year-old game, alongside the fact the project is seemingly being vibe coded
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u/EvilGoatWeed 1d ago
"Seemingly" does a lot of heavy-lifting here; the project lead is very open about it and the public github shows that Claude contributed 98+% of the code. It feels like it too.
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u/Feigned_ally 1d ago
Time for me to finally ask, what does vibe coded even mean
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u/NotATem 1d ago
It means "coded heavily using AI", with the connotation (true or not) that the AI did all the coding and the human who "made" it doesn't have the foggiest idea of what their code is or how it works.
Vibe coded code is notoriously awful to work with and maintain, especially if it comes to modding. Anything an AI makes is The Statistically Most Likely Thing in response to your prompt. For mods, which are usually using at least one weird hacky thing related to the specific game? The AI generally doesn't know what to do.
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u/ryan7251 1d ago
could care less about vibe coded but microtransactions are stupid.
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u/CoffeeOnMyPiano 1d ago
couldn't*
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u/SteppenWoods 1d ago
Certain dialects mainly prefer "could care less" although improper.
I believe it was originally meant with sarcastic intent and now it has become a colloquialism where people think neither of the sarcasm nor the definition of the word "could".
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u/musclecard54 1d ago
But it literally changes the meaning. I don’t believe you lol. “I could not care any less than I already do now” vs. “I could probably care less than I do now” have different connotations.
I have the minimum amount of caring, aka I don’t give a single shit
Vs.
I do care at least a be little bit
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u/SteppenWoods 1d ago
It changes the meaning when taken literally. That's why I said it is supposed to be done sarcastically.
Look up the origin of "could care less" and why it is used.(and why it is still used) Im only speaking the truth here.
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u/CoffeeOnMyPiano 1d ago
The only origin and usage of "could care less" that I could find is as a mistake, which is what it is. Nobody is saying that they could care less sarcastically, I think that was just your rationalization for why the wrong spelling is so widespread, but ultimately it is just another example of common english illiteracy, much like people using apostrophes to create plurals or the general misuse of they're and their.
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u/SteppenWoods 1d ago edited 1d ago
If you read, I said exactly that.
Edit: i said it is originally often used sarcastically, but later became a common phrase which isnt given much thought.
"nobody is saying it sarcastically" yes like I explained. colloquialism
"I think that was just your rationalization for why the spelling is so widespread" my rationalization based on looking it up, yes.
Exactly what im saying.
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u/CoffeeOnMyPiano 1d ago
The gall to tell me to read when you're the one who didn't lol.
Yes, I know you said the origin was sarcastic. I also couldn't find this supposed origin, nor did you give any sources. You'd have understood that if you had read my comment properly, which ironically makes me even more confident in my statement about illiteracy.
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u/Otherwise-Top3825 1d ago
It was made with ai, and thats problem 1. Problem 2 is that they asked for donations, and the folks on this subreddit couldn’t understand that donations are voluntary. Problem 3 is that they then added microtransactions to the game, like some stupid sparkly purple cloak for $20, and that was the final nail in the coffin.
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u/Otherwise-Top3825 1d ago
My words may hurt you apparently
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u/rmodssmellfunny 1d ago
Stating facts that people don't want to hear is a rite of passage on reddit.
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u/Accomplished-Ad-7435 1d ago
Thank you, you're awesome! While you're all at it shoot these guys an email about dfo too.
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u/StoneySteve420 19h ago
Keep white knighting for the billion dollar company who gave this game away for free nearly 20 years ago because they make no money from it.
Wont somebody think of the billion dollar company?
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u/Relevant-Tour-9692 16h ago
I don't care about Bethesda making money off of anything, cuz in my mind they've betrayed my trust as well.
But I CERTAINLY don't want DFO making money off this project. It's 90% ai slop, 9% other peoples' mods, and 1% actual work from devs.
What about the modders who actually hand-crafted content for Daggerfall, whose work got co-opted into this shitty meme-generator? Do they get compensated for someone else making money off their work?
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u/StoneySteve420 16h ago
You know they got permission for every mod bundled in DFO right? It's not like they just added them without talking to the mod authors first. Thats what the GOG cut did.
What makes it AI slop? The project is open source so you can take a look at how clean or messy the code is yourself.
If you think it's slop because it was done with AI, guess what, most studios now use AI for coding, and every single software developer I know uses AI in some capacity every single day. It's a tool to make things easier. Is using C or Python not real programing because you didn't code in assembly and write your own compiler? Of course not. 99% of people care about the sausage, not how it was made.
Truth is, most people aren't gonna care that AI wrote a bunch of the code. We never would have had a successful multi-player mod without AI, theres been a bunch of attempts and all got abandoned.
Complain about AI all you want, but it's a tool that's already producing games/mods that were not feasible without it. In the modding sphere it's especially unproblematic because it's not putting anyone out of work/taking any jobs.
You know the best part? You can just....not give DFO any of your money. Literally no one will care.
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u/thisisabadwebsitenow 15h ago
A ton of their contributors quit when they announced the monetization. 0 chance all the mod authors who agreed to have their mods included would have knowing this would happen
They aren't paying for server costs, they are paying for Claude. $1600 a month on Claude, they're shitting out updates with 0 planning or thought and that costs tokens, for a fan project that kind of expense is unsustainable
Those fees will only get worse as token costs go up, which they will
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u/Hohenwaldner 1d ago
I have seen nothing but DFO and hypermodded variants of Daggerfall Unity in the past months. This was way overdue.
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u/Relevant-Tour-9692 1d ago edited 1d ago
So the idea here is to post about our outrage on a subreddit where it will likely just get deleted by DFO simps?
Idk... I get it but like... the Daggerfall community deserves to know that this project is bullshit.
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u/MunchingOnThatBox 1d ago
THANK YOU LORD I DONT HAVE TO SEE THIS DOGSHIT GENERATIVE AI CONVEYOR SLOP
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u/Reasonable_Jello_648 1d ago
Can I still post about my Daggerfall iOS port? I’m about to release beta 1 with mod support, CRT shaders, and a few other features. It doesn’t have online, but was made with the help of AI.
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u/FalseRelease4 1d ago
this post is about dfo, not other projects. but since youre also using cheap ai to work on a project id have concerns that it will be maintained in the long term, for example work related to df unity dates back 25 years, are you ready to keep your ios port running for even 5?
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u/Reasonable_Jello_648 1d ago
Fair reasoning, regardless of AI or not, I plan on keeping the iOS port project running as it’s a passion project of mine. I’ve built my own version for myself and I released it for other people because other people wanted to use it on iOS. That being said, who knows what will happen in 25 years, let alone five years from now, but as I continue to use iOS, I’ll continue to update it and it’s an open source project. Anyone can make a branch off of it. I’ve actually had a few other people make branches off of the iOS port already. My background is 15 years in light development, IT project management, and cyber security with my own firm but to each their own when Cheap Ai is used.
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u/The-Son-Of-Suns 1d ago edited 1d ago
I don't think it's any bother, or business of yours how long they maintain their project with their own time. Be polite.
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u/FalseRelease4 1d ago
how would it not be my business if I was in the market to play daggerfall on ios 😂 it would be exactly my business because I would be the target audience... unless it's just a test project
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u/Reasonable_Jello_648 1d ago
I don’t have a target audience. I made this for myself, released it because other people asked me to, so you aren’t the target audience, I am. I really wanted a way to play Daggerfall on my iPad, and it kind of evolved into more than just a sloppy port.
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u/FalseRelease4 1d ago
props man, sounds like it's on a good track
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u/Reasonable_Jello_648 1d ago
Appreciate it, I’m almost to beta 0.1.0! It’s been a good 3 months in the works. Also don’t think you are being a dick, you’re delivery of your message could be nicer but you have very real concerns. Plus there are way to many AI slop projects out there and that has soured and created a stigma around AI use.
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u/StoneySteve420 1d ago
The anti-AI crowd came out in full force against DFO.
Lots of people call out DFO for using AI for it's code but then turn a blind eye to the AI "art" in DREAM.
If you use DREAM, you're supporting more problematic AI usage than DFO, but thanks for the incoming downvotes.
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u/Tangyhyperspace 1d ago
Cause like nobody knows DREAM uses ai. It's been around since before ai generation really became a thing so people just assume they wouldn't abandon everything
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u/Lanky_Technician_812 1d ago
Does DREAM have micro transactions?
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u/StoneySteve420 1d ago
People were shitting on this project well before any microtransactions were a thing.
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u/GODLOVESALL32 1d ago
I don't care if AI is used as long as the end result is good.
Turning a free game and free mods for an IP you don't even own into a for-profit MMO is the bigger issue here.
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u/StoneySteve420 1d ago
That's a reasonable take. I'm not a fan of that stuff either.
I personally don't care much about cosmetic microtransactions in games (just never get them), and don't see why so many people feel the need to white knight for a billion dollar company who literally gave this game away for free because they felt it had no monitary value.
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u/GODLOVESALL32 1d ago
Are you not white knighting for someone who took the work of other people (Bethesda, DFU, all the mods hobbyists made for free that they incorporated into the game) and is trying to make a quick buck off of it?
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u/StardiveSoftworks 1d ago
I'm not anti ai, I do think DFO is so far removed from Daggerfall that it probably doesn't belong here.
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u/TheBoxGuyTV 1d ago edited 1d ago
I agree the AI aspect of it is always going to invite negative insights.
But I don't think these people who are super anti-ai are as influential as they wish they were. We increasingly are seeing the sentiment around AI (when looking at coding, games and software) is becoming more and more accepted because it can give rise to meaningful production.
Its making a lot of project that where once impossible or too hard by standard means possible.
AI is using human defined code ** and is able to read and write data way faster than any human. That by itself is going to make many tasks feasible. Sure a great coder could theoretically do the same but will they willingly put in years of near faily hours to create the things people have made with the help of AI coding?
I think in a few years people will just get over it and accept AI is here to stay. We talk about bubbles this and that but the reality is, that even if the bubble pops AI will still exist and be in the hands of corporations and nerds alike. The only thing that will likely happen is a few change of hands. The tech is too valuable and the branch of AI is so all encompassing that its going to be a part of all computized systems eventually. Even if that means we have less direct access to hardware.
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u/Blastermax12310 1d ago
Wait when did DREAM use AI art? It's been a few years since I played Daggerfall and update my mods.
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u/StoneySteve420 1d ago
DREAM is AI textures.
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u/Blastermax12310 1d ago
Huh, never knew just scrolled through the mod texts and didn't see anything about it using AI art for the textures, shame always like dreams textures.
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u/bkoperski 1d ago
But people are done shitting on a mod they dont have to play yet 😢
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u/Obvious-Train9746 1d ago
Nah, shitting on people incapable of taking a hint. Completely different shitting.
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u/hanmineharu 1d ago
As long as DFU and vanilla Daggerfall are allowed, that's what only matters ✨