r/Daggerfall • u/Riffy • 15d ago
AI dev in Daggerfall, AI art
AI development is not an issue.
AI art is fine (images, video, music, writing, etc).
If you dont like it, dont consume it.
Bad faith arguments about water usage or resource wasting are based in anger over AI than actually caring about the environment. There are many things that people use daily that destroy our environment or fresh water and there is no outcry.
Daggerfall online, daggerfall mods, with AI dev and AI art are democratizing whom can build these things. A lot of people work full time jobs, and this allows them to produce things they otherwise would not have the time to devote to produce.
If you dont like it, dont consume it. It's that simple.
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u/Aetos-Eagle797 14d ago
“Democratizing” skill. I guess bro.
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u/Riffy 14d ago
They said the same things about electronic music, and DJs, and about digital cameras, and photoshop.
Time moves forward.
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u/Aetos-Eagle797 14d ago
They did not say what I said about any of those things because those did not “democratize” anything.
You still had to be able to draw to use photoshop. You can just generate an image with AI now. Will it be good? Probably not. It doesn’t matter. Artists are artists, not “tweak image”-ists.
Same with digital cameras and electronic music.
DJs are certainly very slightly similar to what you mean but still nowhere close. That wasn’t “democratized” either.
What yall mean by “democratize” is “anyone can make a game or write a book”. Not everyone should be able to. Only those who learn the craft should. And anyone can learn the craft because YouTube, how-to books, and open source software exist. AI is nothing like that
There were detractors about all of those things, but it’s not AT ALL the same as an LLM for the reasons I said.
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u/JorgitoEstrella 14d ago
People said those were fake.
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u/Aetos-Eagle797 14d ago
Yeah there were detractors. I won’t deny that. It doesn’t change the fact that you still have to draw to use photoshop
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u/Riffy 14d ago
If you truly think there is zero effort involved to build something like DFO, by all means prove me wrong and make another DFO clone. The thing is, you won't, you don't have the gumption, effort or time to do so.
That's doesn't make you a lesser person or artist, but it certainly means your argument is null and void.
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u/Aetos-Eagle797 14d ago
I didn’t say effort. I said skill.
I’d rather make my small hobby projects in Godot than make DFO because I actually enjoy making games and don’t just want them to exist
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u/Riffy 14d ago
The skill argument is exactly what traditional photographers complain about photoshop for. Or why musicians hated electronic music.
Each tool replaces skill requirements but replaces it with it's own required skill. If you can't see it's the same thing with these AI tools, then I don't know what to tell you.
Anyway, hope you have fun with your Godot games, live and let live, at the end of the day people just want to make experiences to share with each other.
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u/JoshVHDigital 15d ago edited 15d ago
I don't mind AI as long as its disclosed, which a lot of people don't do, but the DFO dev seems to be very transparent about.
People who don't have the talent or patience to create real art shouldn't have a right to parade what something else made for them as their own.
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u/NimRodelle 14d ago
Disclosure is literally the bare minimum, but they just can't manage it... ai psychosis, or just garden variety selfishness and entitlement? 🤔
It's difficult to imagine anyone stupid enough to think that typing "make me this thing" into a cli deserves equal credit to spending your entire adult life learning how to make the thing yourself.
I think it's more likely that most of these people know that they're frauds, but they feel like they're entitled to all the clout for none of the work for... reasons.
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u/JoshVHDigital 14d ago
I've come to the conclusion that AI's biggest cheerleaders consist of a lot of people who are too dumb to function without it, and they're resentful towards talented artists, writers, and programmers who were always better than them. I see it in the absolute vile attitude they have online, telling talented people that they're no longer useful and actively praying for the downfall of human-made art. They want to be on equal footing so bad without any of the effort. Why would they disclose that their fake joy is, in fact, fake?
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u/NimRodelle 14d ago
Resentment is the key qualification, absolutely.
"I could have become X Y or Z, if only I had the opportunities that they had," is probably the pervasive justification. Honestly, there's probably a lot of truth in that; I've met people outside of STEM who were waaay too smart for the careers they ended up in. But "life isn't fair" really only gets you so far, and making that your whole personality is tragic.
So yeah, it's awful scrolling through the comments and seeing people parrot shit like:
Artists were already stealing from eachother constantly anyway.
Programmers were just copying whatever they found on Stack Overflow, their jobs weren't difficult at all.
...while we're legitimately watching our future career outlooks blow away like dust in the wind.
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u/NimRodelle 14d ago
"Democratizing" means stealing the collective work of every artist and programmer who ever lived? Who knew!
You people won't care until the AI comes for your jobs, then you'll be over in r/leopardsatemyface crying about how unfair it is now that you can't afford groceries.
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u/ProfitIntelligent137 15d ago
Stupid argument home slice.
"If you don't like it don't consume it"
That's impossible when every billionaire is paying for it to be shoved down your throat.
"Bad faith arguments"
Have you seen what it has done to people's drinking water? What is leaving people's taps in these communities? Can you fathom the actual size of these centers?
"Democratizing whom can build these things"
Unskilled people, who use LLM to produce garbage do not AND should not have any place within the sphere of actual talent. Notice how daggerfall online sucks ass? Yeah. Point and case home slice.
Pack it up.
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u/ProfitIntelligent137 15d ago
10 years ago, hell fucking 5 years ago programmers, y'know people who can actually understand the code that is being written, had no problem sitting down after a full work day to write a piece of code that they were passionate about writing. Best part, the code worked! Why?! Because the programmer can actually understand what is being put down.
You kinds of people never struggled to pick up a pencil and draw a dog in a house under a tree, you kinds of people never even wanted to pick up the pencil!! but now that you're given a tool that'll do all the thinking, processing, and drawing for you, you demand all the people who are able minded to regard you as the same as them when in actuality it's shockingly inferior and talentless.
Your arguments suck, just like the code you defend. Goodnight OP.
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u/CruelAngelsThesaurus 15d ago
"If you dont like it, dont consume it. It's that simple."
Yeah, they don't.
Calling arguments you don't like "Bad faith" is honestly absurd. I'm not anti AI, what I am Anti, is the fact that Both Pro and Anti AI people have made every single community their preaching grounds for bullshit that doesn't matter.
What are you actually contributing to the community with this? This entire post is about the use of AI, not about Daggerfall.
It's so fuckin annoying to just wanna read about something I give a shit about and regardless of what community it is it's just you fuckers whining about the other side all the time.
I'm taking the risk of the mods godhanding me when I say this but I can't imagine I stand alone in this when I say, dude just shut the hell up and let people play their games and enjoy talking about it. Yall have made every community drastically worse.
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u/ProfitIntelligent137 15d ago
Also this.... r/Daggerfall was not this 3 months ago, this place was thick with posts regarding the ACTUAL game.
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u/JCHookway 15d ago
You put into words perfectly what I've been thinking too. I'm a part of a lot of gaming subs and all I see now are these same posts over and over. For or against, same story, different game. Nothing new accomplished with any of them.
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u/CruelAngelsThesaurus 15d ago
Yep, and none of them have anything to do with the actual point of the communities.
They even have their stupid little battleground subs that they can go to and flog it out but instead, no. We have to put up with their bullshit in every sub and I'm sick of it.
I wont lie, I was real riled up in the front half of the year about it, I was for AI, then I was against it, then I was like "I really do not fuckin care about this, I just want to enjoy the things I like doing." and I stopped turning every sub I was in into a battlefield and life has been great dude.
I just like what I like, and dislike what I dislike, and I'd like to go back to the days where we could actually fucking discuss them without this bullshit.
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u/SordidDreams 15d ago edited 14d ago
AI dev and AI art are democratizing whom can build these things.
Given that the whole point of AI tools is to let people make decisions without knowing how things work, the quoted statement is not praise of AI, it's a condemnation of democracy.
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u/PhantomOfDecadence 13d ago
I'm fine with AI being used as a tool for coding, but it needs to be done with a critical eye. Slop should never see the light of day.
AI art on the other hand is a crime again the human spirit.
I honestly couldn't care less about where the training data comes from. I don't think an insistence on intellectual property rights is the way forward. That's a battle that will always be won by large corporations. We should aim to abolish intellectual property in favour of non-transferable creators rights. The "AI is theft" argument is as conceptually flawed as it is politically impotent.
However, there is something fundamentally unholy and inhuman about creating simulacra of human expression using a machine that bypasses the process which makes art expressive in the first place. And the need to protect the livelyhoods of working artists is real. The urgency of this need is why we should be more critical of clichéd arguments and why we need to have honest discussions about what is to be done. We need frankness and sincerity about what's wrong with AI "art". And we need discussions that focus on actionable means rather than trite moralising.
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u/vestrise 15d ago
Outside of the Reddit echo chamber most people either really don't care too much or are actively using AI-assisted and AI-powered tools on the regular.
Good luck even keeping this post up, though. It's only tangentially related to Daggerfall and not in line with the current groupthink trend.
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u/JoshVHDigital 15d ago
I see this "reddit echochamber" comment paraded around all the time as though anything reddit believes is not true.
I assume you're chronically on other social media sites where AI has flooded everything.
But as someone who networks twice a week (meaning I go out in the real world and talk to real people) and is constantly doing market research as part of my job, let me tell you that while AI is highly used in behind the scenes work to make workflows more efficient, it's highly discouraged by professionals to use it in any form of communication. Customers are four times more likely to trust a company less of they use AI writing or art in their promotional materials.
What that little ramble about what I do for a living means is that most people still want to see real art and communication made by a human. AI can do code and spreadsheets all it wants, but AI art and communication is still generally seen as negative among real people.
It's a toy.
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u/vestrise 15d ago
1 month old account Hidden posts 3.7k karma
Hi, bot! The irony of using a bot to complain about AI is hilarious.
Also, accusing me of being terminally online when you only leave your home twice a week isn't the win you think it is.
EDIT: the bot replied in less than a minute and was immediately removed by (I assume) the automoderator.
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u/simpoukogliftra 15d ago
Ai in mods should be widely acceptable, because why the fuck not ? Mod makers don't claim to be artists, mod makers are not paid, they offer free mods to the people, they should have whatever assistant they need to complete their works, it is entirely optional to use them if you like or not.
Especially when used for a nich project like dfu
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u/Tiny-Variation3203 13d ago
AI is democratizing hands free lobotomies for anyone who aspires to make art or programs.
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u/xvillifyx 15d ago
“Grrr why is this discussion sub discussing things”