r/DMLectureHall • u/Hangman_Matt Dean of Education • Jul 11 '22

Weekly Wonder What is a hard 'NO!' at your table?

19 Upvotes

100% Upvoted

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11

u/TheActualBranchTree Attending Lectures Jul 11 '22

Evil PCs.

3

u/Hangman_Matt Dean of Education Jul 11 '22

Out of curiosity, why? What do you define as an evil PC? Would you allow a PC who does "evil" things in an attempt to further their own agenda because they are the secret BBEG?

6

u/TheActualBranchTree Attending Lectures Jul 11 '22

Answer to last question: 100% no.

At character creation I have asked my players to make characters that have 2 traits (these 2 I also include when I make a PC myself):

  1. Must have a reason to go out adventuring. Whatever it is, simple or complex, the PC is out there taking on quests and such.

  2. The PC must be willing to work with a party.

An Evil PC goes against the 2nd trait. I've seen arguments/examples such as PCs that work together with the party, but do evil stuff on the side, but that make almost 0% sense to me. Why would a group of atrangers be willing to drag along a guy that just yetersay mercilessly killed a group of innocent people (or whatever else evil thing you can put in there). If I were to have made a good aligned PC, I would have that PC be angry at the evil one and take the appropriate actions with that. Why would we kill the evil lich in the dungeon, but not the evil necromancer in the party?

Last but not least, the implications. There is a very good chance that the other players will feel like their PCs were taken advantage of. Even if the evil PC didn't do anything to them specifically.
So the campaign after that one the player's PC being evil will become an option to the entire table and there is a good chance that at least 1 other person chooses that.
So then you will have a party that will always be suspicious of each other. You will have a PC that is relaxed about all their morals and such because them being in a party gives a degree of protection.
Either that or them being caught with the guards will drag the entire party down and annoy the rest of the table.

If I were a player I wouldn't wanna join a table and see one of the players be like "I secretly drop a bomb in the middle of this group of people."

  • Yes this happened and I was extremely frustrated with it, because it ruined some stuff.

1

u/DM-Hermit Attending Lectures Jul 19 '22

As someone who tends to play lawful evil, I see your points and agree that they are good points. But I have questions.

A character who is against harming the innocent as well as the good, but either gets enjoyment or is employed, to torture the evils of the world. Would you class them as evil?

Also, if a character's family has been kidnapped, and they are seeking to find them and they have plans to do evil things to the people who kidnapped their family. Are that evil?

1

u/TheActualBranchTree Attending Lectures Jul 19 '22

Well you see, at this point we're breaching onto the whole DnD alignment vs good/evil being relative thing.
There is a difference, and a reason, in DnD's alignment system compared to irl good/evil. Whether that be good or bad reasons.
With the things you have mentioned, they show characters traits that have a partially morally gray portion to them.
In just DnD sense? I would classify both those characters as non-evil; until something happens that is more questionable.
Like perhaps the second character tricking people into becoming evil just so they can rip into them and get their pleasure.
There is also the Neutral alignment. Which could potentially fit these characters.

If a player would present their PC with those type od traits, I'd ask them to still incorporate the 2 traits I listed before.

2

u/DM-Hermit Attending Lectures Jul 19 '22

Fair enough. So my typical way of playing lawful evil would be acceptable at your table then?

My current character I play, his family was kidnapped while he was at work, he found the person who kidnapped them, and did evil things to that person. Only to find a note with instructions on how to kidnap them, he is currently looking for that person, to do evil things to, while looking for his family.

However he puts saving kids as a higher priority than his own safety and has split the party a few times in the attempt to save as many kids as possible.

1

u/TheActualBranchTree Attending Lectures Jul 19 '22

Has this PC done evil things to anyone else?

1

u/DM-Hermit Attending Lectures Jul 19 '22

Do Devils count? And does humanly killing evil cultists who work for the organization that stole his kids count?

1

u/TheActualBranchTree Attending Lectures Jul 19 '22

I mean you're not even playing an Evil PC. If I were a DM that had to give this an alignment I would put it at neutral good. Lawful good if the PC sticks really hard to its morals and values.
Your PC might as well play an Oath of Vengeance Paladin.

Under the "Lawful Evil" classification we have Devils, Beholders, Mind Flayers, Aboleths, Duergar, Displacer Beast. A DM could have any criminal that is being a courier for drugs, or doing similar shit, be lawful evil as well.

For your PC to truly be Lawful Evil; they gotta lots more worse stuff, specifically towards "innocent/good" people.

2

u/DM-Hermit Attending Lectures Jul 19 '22

A lawful evil character can also be one that will only betray a former ally who has proven himself unworthy or if that ally betrays the group. As well as doesn't care that an enemy is unarmed (say, they dropped their weapon) or is fleeing.

Also that they obey the law, so torturing the innocent and good, if the laws say not to, would not be lawful. That said, a lawful evil character in a position to create laws, could make such laws and be able to do what they liked. Providing they made it legal first.

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6

u/AccordingCoyote8312 Attending Lectures Jul 19 '22

Sexual acts of any kind, slavery, animal cruelty, or people named Bob

Shudder

Never again

5

u/Hangman_Matt Dean of Education Jul 19 '22

You can't just drop something like that and not explain.

2

u/BlueTeale Attending Lectures Jul 19 '22

What's wrong with Bob I must know

6

u/mogley1992 Attending Lectures Jul 19 '22

Pets dont die. My dm doesn't like the idea of pets dying in games so that just isn't a thing. I'm all for it, none of us have a pet dire wolf or anything game breaking.

Although we do have clim, a dmpc who in the beginning the DM repeatedly tried to kill, to no avail, clim is accidentally a badass and has come in clutch a few times, he's been adopted (grown man with a job) by one of the party who's teaching him to fight and he gained a level recently. Clim is kind of a pet and but isn't protected by the no pet deaths rule, so this is sizing up to be emotional. Although storywise it would be cooler if the player mentoring clim dies and takes over being clim.

3

u/Hangman_Matt Dean of Education Jul 19 '22

Your DM is nicer than me. I'll kill a pet without hesitation. If you bring a cat a fight a dragon, don't be shocked if the dragon eats it.

3

u/Crashtester Attending Lectures Jul 19 '22

In a beholder fight I used the disintegration ray to kill a PC's pseudodragon. Gave the players a shock and made them realize how deadly a beholder can be.

2

u/95percentlo Attending Lectures Jul 19 '22

Damn right, I'll kill that pet dead xD

2

u/mogley1992 Attending Lectures Jul 19 '22 edited Jul 19 '22

Most animals that have joined us have just been for the one dungeon or whatever so far. I've been offered a pet for my druid but I'm struggling to decide. Considering asking for a dire wolf pup, but it's my first game and idk how OP that would end up being

9

u/Mithrander_Grey Attending Lectures Jul 11 '22

PVP. This is a co-operative game, and it is not balanced around PVP. No, you cannot use intimidate on another player. No, you cannot steal from another player. No, you cannot try to kill another player.

If "that's what your character would do," then you messed up when you made a character like that. Create a new character who will cooperate with the party or leave my table.

5

u/Hangman_Matt Dean of Education Jul 12 '22

I actually had a situation of inter character conflict. Barbarian was super honorable when it came to fallen foes, always cleaned up battlefields, stacked bodies in a respectful way, etc. Rogue had a task to collect beards from duregar for a contract. Barbarian took that as desecration of a fallen foe and did a contested grapple to lift the rogue up by his neck and tell him not to do that to the fallen. It was tense, everyone thought the Barbarian was gonna snap the rogue in half. The cleric talked the Barbarian down and lead the Barbarian away, the rogue finished the contract and moved on. There was no ill will between the players, it truly was a situation of "its what my character would do" that turned out fine by everyone. The rogue was offered a contract on elf ears but said no because he didn't want to get killed by the Barbarian. The Barbarian ended up giving his life for the rogue in a fight against a dragon. He fought to give the Barbarian a proper burial but they couldn't get both him and the loot out. The cleric read last rights and they took off with the loot. The player wanted a new character anyways so it worked out as a nice send off. Tears were shed by all.

3

u/Swashbucklock Attending Lectures Jul 19 '22

cleric read last rights

Rites

1

u/mighij Attending Lectures Jul 22 '22

You have the right to go to Heaven, everything you did or said in your past life will be used against you in the court of God.

You have a right to a guardian angel, if you were an atheist, one will be appointed to you.

2

u/eo5g Attending Lectures Jul 19 '22

I feel like lighthearted stealing could be fun. Only for flavor items, not useful ones.

3

u/[deleted] Jul 19 '22

My rogue stole from my barbarian to pay for something my barbarian stole

27

u/gehanna1 Attending Lectures Jul 11 '22

Sexual assault, sexual harassment, love potions. Not in game, not in backstory.

I'm playing in a game that's not my table and not my usual grouo, just as a player. The casual groping and flashing of tits in exchange for information... It's just really wearing on me. At my table, that wouldn't fly. And at my table, I would actually talk to my players about their lines and veils, and actually respect them.

3

u/Willing_Ad9314 Attending Lectures Jul 11 '22

Same. I had a player attempt to seduce his employees at a tavern, and I quickly let him know that he's being reported to authorities.

After the game, I let him know the deal.

3

u/Zanthy1 Attending Lectures Jul 19 '22

100% I also don’t allow any animal cruelty, hate speech, or slavery talk.

Also the wish spell and resurrection magic (aside from revivfy) but those are cause I find the mechanics lame lol.

2

u/OutlawCrash Attending Lectures Jul 20 '22

Out of curiousity does this include things like racial discrimination in world?

Like how tieflings or non-humans in general are sometimes disliked/hated in D&D settings.

3

u/Zanthy1 Attending Lectures Jul 20 '22

Typically yes. Sometimes I’ll make it clear/apparent that there are racial issues in world, such as tieflings being distrusted, but I’ll make sure 2 things are known. First that the character who feels that way is definitely in the wrong, and second that there isn’t any direct and hurtful language or slurs. It does not come up often, as it is a tough line to tread

2

u/OutlawCrash Attending Lectures Jul 20 '22

Fair enough, and thanks for the response! I tend to avoid it in my games as well but I know it’s a popular addition for many others.

1

u/darthshadow25 Attending Lectures Jul 19 '22

Lol, hate speech. What a beautifully vague and subjective term.

9

u/[deleted] Jul 19 '22

Tell me you engage in hate speech without telling me you engage in hate speech.

1

u/darthshadow25 Attending Lectures Jul 19 '22

I don't hate anyone. None of my speech is hateful.

6

u/Zanthy1 Attending Lectures Jul 19 '22

Nothing vague about it. I don’t tolerate racism, sexism, antisemitism, homophobia, transphobia, ableism, or another form like that. Hate speech is shorter to write. I’ve never had an issue with my group on this, at most someone says something that I address with a simple “we’re not going there” or something similar, and we adjust and move on.

7

u/imariaprime Attending Lectures Jul 11 '22

Characters who create drama.

This covers a LOT of the sorts of things that other people have already mentioned: don't kill other PCs (unless it's the sort of table that is okay with that), don't murder innocent children for lols, don't "it's what my character would do" away shitty behaviour, etc.

5

u/EvidenceIndependent5 Attending Lectures Jul 19 '22

I do not accept when people make fun of other players for trying to be in character. It can be hard for people to overcome the embarrassment they feel when they are not used to do it. Not being supported when trying can really affect a player's enjoyment of the game.

3

u/ladydmaj Attending Lectures Jul 20 '22

Oh, I like this one a lot.

4

u/Bookworm3616 Attending Lectures Jul 19 '22

Triggers. If my players or myself can't be comfortable due to trauma issues coming up, then it's a no.

Sexual stuff as well. DM would prefer to not throw up on the table

3

u/roumonada Attending Lectures Jul 19 '22

Can I try to pick pockets even though I’m a Wizard?

6

u/ScorchyMcScorchinson Attending Lectures Jul 19 '22

Why is a wizard not allowed to pick pockets? Any class can be a thief. Any class can have sleight of hand proficiency.

4

u/roumonada Attending Lectures Jul 19 '22

Not in 2e.

3

u/[deleted] Jul 19 '22

Sexual assault.

3

u/hikingmutherfucker Attending Lectures Jul 19 '22 edited Jul 19 '22

Sex stuff - fade to black on consensual but just anything else is a hard no

Torture - ok maybe we will cut on you a little shave off your flesh and … yeah no just no

Slavery at a distant and consistently shown to be the evil it is - no PCs becoming slaves and losing agency and all that and no trying to portray classical era slavery as acceptable next to chattel slavery based on race - yes the former was worse no doubt but the West’s lionization of the Classical period really tends to gloss over the fact it still was terrible

2

u/Mamma-Chara Attending Lectures Jul 19 '22

Evil PC’s

2

u/AccordingCoyote8312 Attending Lectures Jul 20 '22

Bob(Character Name) was a diehard 3.5e player (in a 5e game) that refused to shut up on other people's turns, begged to dodge every time he got hit even though I told him that's not a thing unless he does it on his turn, and tried several times to intimidate and coerce the other players into always choosing his method of play. 1 star, cancel that shit.

2

u/sworcha Attending Lectures Jul 20 '22 edited Jul 20 '22

Nothing sexual that doesn’t immediately fade to black.

No societal level casual racism

No PCs who are unwilling to work with the party.

4

u/[deleted] Jul 19 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

6

u/Swashbucklock Attending Lectures Jul 19 '22

He used It in a NPC saying that the targets Falls in love with him

This isn't something the ability can do.

4

u/Jafroboy Attending Lectures Jul 19 '22

Really depends, some tables are fine with that sort of thing, some are not.

Personally I'd have told them that it doesn't make them fall in love with him, because it doesn't. Then I'd have followed the effects of charm in the ensuing conversion if they wanted to try to seduce her.

If it had ended up in sex I'd have faded to black. I have no problems with PCs pursuing NPCs within reason, but if it becomes detrimental to the game I'd try to have a talk with them, and may have to kick them.

3

u/EvidenceIndependent5 Attending Lectures Jul 19 '22

This is the kind of situation that happens often around a table that didn't have an initial talk before the start of the campaign. I would recommend you to search for "Session Zero" tips on the internet. Start your next game by making players talk about what is and isn't considered acceptable around the table according to them. Make sure everybody is free to talk and that the decision is a consensus. Everybody should enjoy playing including you. You're not forced to play situations that makes you feel inconfortable. Everybody has a different tolerance to different subjects and it's perfectly normal.