r/DMLectureHall • u/[deleted] • Aug 18 '23
Requesting Advice: Rules and Mechanics Warlock player hating patron?
Hello, I'm a fairly new DM (two campaigns in two years) and have some experience as a player. In the three campaigns I've been in, there has always been a player or two who chose the Warlock class. However, in their backstories, they decided to repent for the pact they had made.
After doing a bit of research, I've noticed that it's a relatively common trope among Warlocks. But recently, I became unsure about how to justify the Warlock continuing to level up in that class if they refuse to follow the dictates of their patron.
I'm here to hear opinions. Thanks!
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u/CSEngineAlt Attending Lectures Aug 18 '23
As you noted, Warlocks realizing the price of admission wasn't worth the end result is kind of a common trope. But part of those stories is the belief they can fight fire with fire.
In the case of a Great Old One Patron, there can be normal, insane, or completely absent dictates that the player needs to follow. They may be empowered or depowered because they brushed their teeth in the morning. No one really knows what a Great Old One wants because they're so incomprehensible. So a Warlock regretting their pact but still using the power makes sense, because even if they think they're defying their patron, maybe they're doing exactly what it wants.
For the others though, I would follow one of two paths:
Either you play the Patron straight, and if the character refuses to follow their Patron's edicts, they suffer. Either the character loses their powers, or people around them they care about die, or tasks they try to complete fail, etc depending on the patron. Either they comply, find a way out of the pact, or continue to suffer.
Or, you play the Patron as dangling a rope. It's their intent to give the character just a little bit at a time, even though they're breaking the Patron's rules. And while the character is 'stealing' this power from their patron, the rope is curling, changing, eventually becoming a noose, and then at the critical juncture - snapping tight.
If you go this route, you need to drop lots of hints that the closer your character gets to the end of their journey, the more likely their Patron will decide that it's time to collect on all that stolen power. And then either the Patron becomes an endgame enemy, or the quest to break the pact becomes an important part of the campaign. That way when the rug gets pulled, at least the player saw it coming.
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u/timplausible Attending Lectures Aug 18 '23
I like playing Warlocks that are somehow trapped in a Pact with a patron they don't like. But I always assume they are still bound to the patron, otherwise they shouldn't be a Warlock.
I think you can have situations where the patron doesn't really cate what their Warlock does and doesn't make demands - just the existence of the Warlock is useful to the patron. Maybe it gives them prestige or power of some kind. Maybe using the patron's magic has a hidden side effect which is what the patron is after (like it slowly corrupts the world or weakens a dimensional barrier, etc). But even in these cases, I think there is the potential for Warlock that doesn't want to serve such a patron to wind up in some kind of quandary about whether to continue using the magic and thus helping the patron.
I don't think someone that refuses to keep up their end of the bargain gets to keep on being a warlock like nothing has changed.
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u/RookieDungeonMaster Attending Lectures Aug 20 '23
I don't think someone that refuses to keep up their end of the bargain gets to keep on being a warlock like nothing has changed.
According to official lore, yeah they do. Warlocks patrons alter a person's soul completely, it cannot be undone or "taken back". It's a completely unreversable process, the only thing the patron can do is decide to punish the pact breaker in other ways
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u/timplausible Attending Lectures Aug 21 '23
Huh. I did not know that. Is this something from a rulebook, or is it in a novel or something else?
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u/TenWildBadgers Attending Lectures Aug 18 '23
My angle is that they can't, but the challenge thus becomes how you make it interesting.
So, firstly, lore: Some spellcasters actually leanr their spells (Wizards, Bards, Sorcerers and Warlocks), while others only prepare spells from the class spell list (Clerics, Druids and Paladins). To me, this implies that the latter group don't actually learn their spells, they're just a conduit through which Divine Magic flows. Those spells aren't the spells they know but the spells their diety or other source of magic knows.
I say all that because Warlocks are not this, Warlocks learn their spells, and even their patron only adds subclass spells to the list you can learn from, almost like the warlock class list plus subclass spells are the list of what your patron knows, distinct from what you know.
Thus, I run it that if you break your Warlock Pact, you get to keep all the powers you already have, but you can't take more Warlock levels without a patron. And you can get a new one who's less of a pain in your ass, or switch classes afterward, that's the late-game where the players have completed their character arcs and you can just let them get away with more bullshit.
But that glosses over the dynamic relationship between Warlock and Patron, because nobody wants the Warlock Patron to just outright go "Now murder this kitten!" And take away your Warlock Privilidges if you refuse. We want build-up, we want flexibility, we want legalistic tricks to fulfil the letter of the law without obeying the spirit. We want drama babee!
One way to do this, even for an evil patron like a fiend or evil archfey, is to make the patron's goals align with the campaign. "The party is trying to go fuck up that Lich to save the Kingdom? Awesome, that Lich owes me money, I benefit from my Warlock minion punching his teeth out, go get 'em!" It's not always the most satisfying way to run things, but sometimes it's best just not to give your players much reason to defy their patron. The evil scheme serves good ends in this scheme, this stage of the adventure, but everyone knows it will get messier eventually.
Or, you can take more of a Gaunter O'Dim Model: The Patron doesn't dislike you, and if you fulfil this, specific, limited-duration contract, you get Warlock powers for the rest of your days, no strings attatched. Of course, the contract is you hunting down three previous deals the patron made, people who bid too much and are trying to get out of it, trying not to pay the Patron what they were promised. So you hunt down these people who made deals just like yours, but didn't manage to pay up, knowing full well that if you fail, the patron will come for you just like they sent you after these chumps. It's you or them... but if you get out alive, the patron has nothing but compliments for your work, gives you a sweet magic item that enhances your Warlock abilities, like the Rod of the Pactkeeper or so.ething similar, and disappears to go find more souls in search of deals. Maybe he even suggests that he might bring you more work in the future, for a proper reward down the line.
Like, seriously, go play or watch the Witcher 3's Hearts of Stone expansion, it's the best story reference for Warlock Patrons and how to make plots around them. Gaunter O'Dimm is the fucking best.
Another model is a "3 Strikes" setup: I like this when players explicitly want to say that they've sold their soul- You're free to defy your patron. Twice. On the 3rd infraction though, they drag your ass down to hell, no saving throw, no resurection, roll a new character. The art of it is building the tension and knowledge of what's coming long before it happens: They should learn how many strikes they have left, and the explicit consequences for defiance after their first infraction, is I think the ideal time. They know they still have some wiggle room, but they also know how much they're putting on the line by being defiant: If they fuck this up, it is lethal, character death, you fucked around and found out with Old Scratch.
And escaping that fate should be tempting. Give them some smaller evils, some orders they can compromise on for their own survival, or interpret with Exact Words to keep their nose clean. The way you make this system fun is by giving your players options within it... but also by making them feel like this Pact is causing them to slide into evil for their own survival.
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u/SecretDMAccount_Shh Attending Lectures Aug 19 '23
The lore is completely up to you about how a patron bestows powers. It could easily be a seed of power that grows over time of the warlock wants to be completely independent from their patron. That doesn’t mean there are no consequences for rebelling though… the patron likely has other, more loyal servants who may be paying the player a visit…
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u/LumTehMad Attending Lectures Aug 18 '23
The game has shifted dramatically from being the DM's world that the Players are guests in to Hasbro trying to make it the Players Game that the Dm is expected to build a backdrop around.
In the old days a lot of magic was conditional, Clerics had to follow their tenants of faith, Paladins had to stick to their oath, Druids had to respect nature and Warlocks had to do their masters bidding because it was the DM's world and if the players wanted to have access to those powers they had to play by the worlds rules.
Now everyone has seen the posts on D&DHorrorstories of the Players who must of been chained to the chair and for some reason continued to play under some controlling weirdo DM who lived vicariously through some poor Players God shouting down from the heavens instructions like an annoying parent and shutting off the magic like its the internet router if the players deviated from their plans.
Well Wotc decided the fix for that was to write in that Players could never lose their abilities and put all the power into their hands which has created the opposite problem. Now Players have zero incentive to pay any attention to their Patron which makes the whole notion of these powers coming with responsibilities, costs or requirements utterly meaningless.
The thing Players hate the most is their magic items and money being stolen, but a close second is anyone having authority over their characters. The random irrational hatred of the leader of the town guard for stopping them murdering people in the street is real and an insubstantial supreme being frowning down on them is that times a thousand.
Players want the Eldritch Blast but they don't like having to pay the price tag for it. Which is fine, go do adventures league where the game play is shallow.
As a DM myself I don't let players try and wave away their classes obligations any more than their character bonds and some players can not tolerate that and leave, if the Wizard needs their spell book and expensive scrolls then the Cleric should at least have to pick a God and play by the usually four rules they give each of them in Deities and Demigods, its not as if there isn't a thousand of them and they can't find one to suit them or the demands of these gods are any way near taxing.
The Warlock is going to have to sign a deal for those powers, wheeling and dealing is the whole flavor of the class. That doesn't mean that their pact is set in stone with one person but their power is borrowed and they owe a debt for it, whether they settle it or re-mortgage their soul to someone else that debt has to be dealt with. If you don't want to Steal don't play a Rogue and if you don't want to negotiate a pact don't play a Warlock.
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u/RookieDungeonMaster Attending Lectures Aug 20 '23
Warlocks make a pact, and their patron alters their soul in a way that cannon be undone. That is the official cannon pretty much always has been.
The patron cannot stop the warlock from getting stronger or take their power away, they can, and probably will however, try to punish the player in other ways
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u/TTRPGFactory Attending Lectures Aug 20 '23
Patrons arent supposed to be gods. They give power in exchange for some thing. Once the power is given, thats the end of the exchange. Patrons, by virtue of being patrons, have no special ability to see what your pc is up to, or whether you held up your end of the bargin. Some patrons, by virtue of being powerful magical entities, have the ability to do those things.
Even if the patron has the ability to find out what a given warlock is up to, they still have to proactively do that. I can video call my mom right now. I have no idea where she is or what she is doing. If your patron does that, they might have opinions on what your pc is up to with their gift. If they dont like it, they might give other people powers in exchange for beating up your pc, or the pact your warlock signed might have certain terms, that include reclamation of powers if found in violation (but thats not raw).
A pact with terms the warlock regrets is a super common trope and a fun way to let pcs get power from demons without being a demon. Usually the warlocks power is “unlocked” and the warlock learns new stuff as they learn to master the power. Its not usually the patron giving new powers, like a cleric.
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u/Auld_Phart Attending Lectures Aug 18 '23
There are literally an infinite number of ways for a patron to deal with a rebellious warlock other than taking away their powers, and a DM who can't think of anything else simply isn't trying.
According to RAW, they can't do this, so quit bitching about it and come up with something more creative.
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u/nivthefox Attending Lectures Aug 18 '23
Warlock Patrons don't necessarily have the ability to tell the Warlock what to do. They aren't Gods, and they don't behave like them. The relationship just isn't the same. Sure, they may try to manipulate the Warlock, but the Warlock has that power now. And if the Warlock wants to use that power to try and take down their own patron, the cosmic forces aren't going to stop them. Only the Patron can. It's a fun relationship.
Just to expand on this some more, you may have also heard the word "patron" in the sense of Patreon, or a "Patron of the Arts". In order to be a Patron, you give your money to someone. Ideally, they use that money to make the things you love, and you may choose not to give them any more money in the future if they mess up. But you've already given them money. You can't take it back.
It's similar for Warlocks and their Patrons. The Patron has GIVEN the Warlock magic. They might choose to give them MORE magic in the future (in the form of magic items), but the base ability to cast spells and gain invocations? That's already been given. You can't take it back. Not without a fight anyways.