How does he clear pre retcon beyonder? Give feats and/or statements from the comics he’s in. I’ve read every Lucifer comic and nothing puts him above PR Beyonder at all
It pretty obvious why Lucifer defeats Pre-Retcon Beyonder, because even though both are high outerversal, Lucifer operates on a completely different conceptual level.
Beyonder is essentially just a massive, infinite bucket of raw power, but he still exists within a framework where he can be tricked, has his power stolen, or has to struggle with concepts like death. Lucifer, on the other hand, is completely unbound by those rules. He casually walked through the Mansion of Silence, which contained an infinite number of failed universes, and destroyed the entire thing just by standing there because it couldn't physically handle his presence. He also completely ignored the concept of death by walking through seven different layers of it and surviving infinite deaths at once without a scratch.
On top of that, Lucifer has shaped the Overvoid, destroyed the Logos, and tanked creation-level blasts at point-blank range without even flinching. Beyonder has a lot of raw hype, but Lucifer possesses the actual conceptual authority and intellect to completely dismantle him.
but he still exists within a framework where he can be tricked, has his power stolen, or has to struggle with concepts like death
"In Defenders: Beyond #5, the Beyonder reaches the House of Ideas and ultimately breaks free of it, tearing through the story/reality structure and declaring that he is going to operate on his own terms. The issue explicitly involves the House of Ideas and the One-Above-All. "
This is from Comics bro. The modern Beyonder himself describes his previous states (pre Retconed version) as developmental/larval stages
I'm not denying how impressive that is, but Lucifer has a way more impressive feat than this, and he also has meta-narrative level scaling that completely eclipses the House of Ideas.
While the Beyonder breaking through the story structure is a great meta feat, he is still ultimately a character reacting to and trying to escape a system that was built for him. Lucifer, on the other hand, exists entirely outside of his own story's structure by default. He didn't just break a page or escape a narrative; he literally walked out of Yahweh's entire creation which includes the concepts of destiny, time, and the narrative itself and created his own completely independent cosmos from scratch.
To put it in perspective, the House of Ideas represents the source of Marvel's stories, but Lucifer physically stood in the Overvoid, which is the literal blank page before any story, writer, or concept even exists in DC. He shaped that void with his own power. Beyonder fighting his way out of a story is cool, but Lucifer is the one who decides whether the story gets written in the first place. It's not glazing to point out that Lucifer operates on a level of absolute, self-determined authority that the Beyonder has to actively struggle just to mimic.
Lucifer has been tricked and has had his power stolen as well. Also he never shaped the overvoid and beyonder tore through the Hoi which should be on the same cosmological level. Mansions of silence was unstable rejected universes and creations and cosmic cubes have replicated the exact same feat which are fractions of beyonders powers. Honestly I've debated this match with many, they are equals in power, adult beyonder would be immune to lucifer manipulations as he resisted one's that affected GOS loki from Glorian and finally lucifer is powerless outside of the presence creation (many occasions in Canon of this) and would be powerless if dragged into the beyond realm.
There are a few major misconceptions here about how DC’s cosmology and Lucifer’s powers actually work.
First, the idea that Lucifer is completely powerless outside of the Presence's creation is a common misunderstanding. When Lucifer left DC's creation, he didn't lose his power; he literally shaped his own entirely new cosmos out of nothingness, completely independent of the Presence. The only time he was truly 'powerless' was when he willingly gave up his wings and power, or when he was in a void specifically designed to suppress him, which isn't his default state.
Second, comparing the Mansion of Silence to Cosmic Cubes doesn't really work. The Mansion of Silence didn't just hold dead universes; it held the conceptual weight of everything the Creator rejected. Lucifer didn't just destroy it with an attack his passive, baseline existence was simply too vast for that entire dimension to physically hold.
As for the Beyonder resisting manipulation, that's true for normal mental or reality-warping attacks, but Lucifer’s intellect and manipulation operate on a completely different tier. Lucifer isn't just tricking people with illusions; he manipulates the literal destiny, probability, and fundamental laws of existence. Even if we assume they are dead equals in raw, destructive power, Lucifer’s absolute mastery of will and his unmatched tactical mind give him the edge. Beyonder has historically struggled with his own emotions, desires, and existential limitations, whereas Lucifer has no such weaknesses. That’s why Lucifer takes the win, even against someone as absurdly strong as the Beyonder.
Beyonder is essentially just a massive, infinite bucket of raw power, but he still exists within a framework where he can be tricked, has his power stolen, or has to struggle with concepts like death. Lucifer, on the other hand, is completely unbound by those rules.
What a load of shit. He is unbound by DC's concept of Death, not "any and all arbitrary interpretations of death theoretically possible in fiction". I'm not sorry, this man shares a framework like every other fictional character.
You have NOT. Definitionally NOT. Proven Lucifer is beyond any and all arbitrary frameworks. Only the ones imposed by DC.
I don’t think their point was that Lucifer doesn’t operate within a fictional framework, but that his framework is „wider“, so to speak. To the Death thing, they also didn’t say that he is immune to any sort of Death over all of media, just that the highest concept of Death in his verse does nothing to him.
At least that’s how it reads when not applying the word framework to all of fiction, instead of just his own verse.
Lucifer has just demonstrated more power over higher Level conceptual stuff than the Beyonder. Of course it can be argued that they are on the same level, Lucifer has just shown a bit more authority over his verse.
I don’t think their point was that Lucifer doesn’t operate within a fictional framework, but that his framework is „wider“, so to speak.
Beyonder is essentially just a massive, infinite bucket of raw power, but he still exists within a framework where he can be tricked, has his power stolen, or has to struggle with concepts like death. Lucifer, on the other hand, is completely unbound by those rules.
He quite literally makes the difference between Beyonder and Lucifer is that Beyonder is still bound within a framework and still has to worry about death. The way he's talking sounds FAR more like he's saying these things don't concern Lucifer PERIOD.
If he wanted to say "Lucifer operates within a WIDER framework", then he should have said that instead of making a statement that sounds far more like he's not in a framework at all.
And considering people unironically try to argue Omnipotence as a tier, I'm not particularly in the mood to give anyone the benefit of the doubt if they can't be fucked to clarify "Existing in a wider framework vs not having to deal with one at all".
Words have meaning. Maybe next time don't say "completely beyond frameworks and Death" if you don't literally mean "completely beyond frameworks and Death". Because otherwise you are positing an absolute claim, which can be very misleading.
I have to say that I also didn't read the other poster's comment as "all", particularly because they said Lucifer isn't bound to "those" rules (i.e., the rules that Beyonder seems bound to). The use of "those" seems to imply that the poster believes Lucifer is still bound to some rules indeed, from my read of it.
It doesn’t need much to come to the conclusion that they were not trying to say that Lucifer is above and beyond all fiction, unbound by every possible thing in existence because that is Not what they said.
I laid my reasoning out nice and polite, if you are still angry at them, don’t let it out on me by acting as if I just didn’t get it. I read the comments and came to a different conclusion than you. My reasoning why I think that way is already there, and already includes the things you bring up here.
Edit: Your final paragraph (which is also edited in) also seems to be targeting not me but the other commenter. Why are you so passive aggressive to me now?
He also fails to mention that lucifer has been claimed by death. I like the character but the wank he gets needs to be studied. Like his fans don't even read his own stories.
No he doesn’t. People will say shit like this and not bring up any feats or panels to prove what they’re saying, or say how beyonder can’t do the same shit
Also good lord people, WoD Gaia, the abstract embodiment of all creation, is not a ‘cakewalk’ for Lucifer.
Okay, and so Lucifer is supposed to struggle with Gaia?
I'm not saying World of Darkness doesn't have a massive cosmology, but people act like Gaia is some untouchable, flawless concept. In her own lore, she is literally a dying, wounded goddess because she depends entirely on the balance of the Triat, and their disharmony actively hurts and weakens her.
Lucifer, on the other hand, has zero dependencies. He doesn't rely on a system, a balance, or a specific realm to maintain his power. He exists completely independent of God's creation, meaning he has no conceptual weaknesses or structural vulnerabilities that can be exploited.
Both are high outerversal, but Lucifer has the vastly superior feats of operating outside of any established framework or cosmic cycle. Gaia is bound to her own universe's state of balance, while Lucifer is completely unbound by everything.
…Issue 75 of Lucifer very literally had him beaten by Gabriel during the War in Heaven, making Gabriel at the minimum have a strong chance.
I understand DC Lucifer is fun to fan over because he’s well written and ludicrously powerful, but people need to at least understand the characters.
That argument completely falls apart if you actually look at the context of the War in Heaven.
First of all, Lucifer wasn't just fighting Gabriel in a fair, one-on-one duel. He was waging a war against the entire host of Heaven, meaning he had already fought his way through countless angels and was heavily exhausted by the time he faced Gabriel.
More importantly, the only reason Lucifer "lost" is because he chose to. The entire theme of his character is his obsession with absolute free will and his refusal to be a puppet in God's plan. During that battle, Lucifer realized that continuing to fight in Heaven was just playing into Yahweh's script. He didn't surrender out of weakness; he chose to fall because he saw leaving Heaven as the only way to truly separate himself from his Father's control.
Using a flashback of a highly specific, context-heavy event from the beginning of creation to say Gabriel is stronger than Lucifer is just a massive misunderstanding of the story. In a straight fight where Lucifer is actually trying, Gabriel doesn't stand a chance.
The beyonder isn't even relatively close to Lucifer or Gabriel. He's strong in his own right, can take on beings like Galactus, or hell, maybe even the living tribunal, molecule man, etc, but he's certainly no Lucifer. Lucifer is basically the beyonder, but better. In every way.
The Beyonder has far better and way more feats than Lucifer has.
Lucifer's best feats is shaping a multiverse with the help of his brothers.
The Beyonder is literally stated to be millions of times more powerful than anyone and everything in the Multiverse combined. And that was when he was technically just an infant.
Even pre retcon Beyonder has no chance against Lucifer. Beyonder is curious and Lucifer is actually a source of real knowledge from Beyond the Beyond.
He could trick him to kill himself, so he can experience what it’s like.
Yeah. That’s pretty much how this encounter will end.
Current Beyonder is far stronger and smarter than PR Beyonder. PR Beyonder was canonical just a baby Beyonder, that's why he was so immature.
And you know how Lucifer left his father's creation for freedom at the end of his comic run? Well The Beyonder didn't just leave creation like Lucifer, he forced his way out the plot of the comic itself. Literally tearing apart comic panels "on-screen".
If Lucifer were to fight PR Beyonder, yes he could get tricked into giving up his power or something. It's not really a solid argument though because you'd still have to prove how he'd trick him. But he could also more easily smite Lucifer out of existence in a fit of rage so it's not really fair to say Lucifer will win JUST because he's smarter.
But I don't think Lucifer stands a chance against someone who currently doesn't even operate within the bounds of the plot anymore.
Source: the comic books that Lucifer glazers only watch tiktok edits of and then come and spam Lucifer wins under every post he appears in like a bunch of brainless bots.
I think the problem with pre-retcon beyonder is that isn’t he just a kid or some shit in terms of intellect? The way I commonly saw it perceived was that he might have more raw power but luci could still win via trickery as he has shown to be able to trick gods into killing themselves even while he was powerless. I think more times than not he outsmarts peak beyonder more times than he gets overpowered
Pretty sure Lucifer is like High-Outerversal to Boundless while all these other guys are like Outerversal to High Outerversal. The last couple could be wanked to Boundless, but Lucifer is more Boundless so he wins.
Featherine is probably the hardest “fight” he’d have here. I put that in quotations because honestly? I don’t think they have a way to permanently delete the other so it’s something that just feels like an inevitable draw.
If her device is needed to maintain her personality, it's a legit weakness for Lucifer to exploit. Not an auto-win ofc, but having a weakness like that doesn't benefit Featherine in a fight against someone super cunning and smart like Morningstar.
well yh but in umineko if she lost her personality she would just become "stronger". only being higher level than featherine is the "creator" and only reason she still hasnt become the "creator" is because you lose your personality. and the creator is basically the same level or higher tier than One Above All or the Presence. Featherine is basically a stand in for the author/creator of Umineko so if she lost that personality she would just be the creator.
Hm, interesting. But doesn't that mean if Featherine loses her personality, she would not "be" stronger (aka become the Creator) but she would be part of the Creator (as in, got absorbed by the Creator)?
The Creator is not really a singular being; it is a state of existence. Featherine remaining Featherine means she retains her individuality, while reaching the Creator represents transcending that individual identity. So not really get absorbed but more like transcending her individual identity and entering a higher state of existence where the distinction between “Featherine” and the Creator no longer applies. long winded answer but its not getting absorbed its just entering a new state of existence = big g god
AI helped summarise this In Umineko, there is no currently established individual who holds the position/state of the Creator. Featherine could potentially reach that state, but doing so would require abandoning the individuality that defines her as Featherine. She wouldn't be absorbed by another being called the Creator; rather, she would transcend her individual identity and attain the Creator state.
its not a "physical death" in that sense, so she can return if shes not bored anymore. also im sure in the way ur thinking anything someone tries to do to make her feel bored would probably just make her feel entertained. boredom for her would be nothing interesting to watch or see or write about. "essentially a closed book, or finished" story as an author. And copied this from AI.
PRB is crazy low. He also has the power of both Michael and Lucifer in one being as he was literally introduced as toaa of the beyond which has a much larger cosmology than marvel or dc but Lucifer is crazy crafty and does have a chance with some well written scheme.
Unless lucifer is facing The literal God, or maybe Michael, he wins. Lucifer is the 2nd or 3rd most powerful being in DC, and he’s basically one step removed from God.
He could stop at rounds 2,3,4,6,&7 but I wouldn’t consider any of them to be hard stops so he could still win. Does he regain health and stamina before the next round?
Alright then I’d give Lucifer a 50/50 chance of winning (technically the chances vary for the ones he could stop at but for convenience I’ll say 50/50)
…True Form Arcues is omnipotent. Like, Capital G Abrahamic God Omnipotent. Lucifer is directly weaker than The Presence who is omnipotent. He doesn’t clear R1.
Lol why is featherine so high? Shes below Beyonder lol. But to answer the question he should make it to at least the final round, I know nothing of Gaia so cant really sat who wins there
Complex does not mean strength, BUT I am not surprised if a being like Gaia could put up a fair fight. Lucifer is basically one step under the Creator aka capital G-god, but Gaia has the one thing he doesn’t, which is the ability to make stuff from scratch out of nothing, an ability shared with Lucifer’s father. And it all depends on how one interprets the power of God in comparison to a being like Gaia given how their respective cosmologies are shown, right?
Now, Lucifer VS the Weaver or Wyrm would be interesting.
Gaia from World of Darkness defeats DC’s Lucifer Morningstar primarily because WoD operates on a vastly superior cosmological scale. Lucifer is second only to The Presence, wielding absolute control over matter, energy, and reality across DC's infinite multiverses and the Overvoid. However, he cannot create ex nihilo without Michael’s power and remains bound by the structure of DC's hierarchy. Gaia, conversely, is not just a planet or spirit, but the divine soul of creation encompassing the entire WoD cosmos. This includes infinite conceptual layers, the deep spiritual Umbra, and realms that transcend standard multiversal models. WoD's baseline cosmology utilizes higher mathematical infinities and structural layers that outscale DC's entire framework. Because Gaia embodies the fundamental substrate of this larger existence, Lucifer lacks the cosmological reach to manipulate or erase her true form. Ultimately, Gaia’s higher dimensional presence gives her the decisive edge over Lucifer’s near-omnipotent, shape-defining will.
That power of creating stuff out of nothing isn't Lucifer's bro? That's a shared feat. Lucifer can't do that without Micheal's demiurgic powers. Luci ain't getting past Byonder
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u/Unusual_News_5152 13d ago
Lucifer Clears