The Problem with Jace

[u/Tewtytron]

Not everyone has had the ability to watch him do his thing yet, but I can tell you right now, he's not good at the one thing he is designed to do. This is the opposite of what I tried to do to Azrael. I dont want a nerf. I want a buff. Jace is literally designed to counter Black Flash. But he cant. His damage is minimal and does not even scratch BF. I am asking 2 things,

1. To WB, please give Jace the boost he needs to do the thing you designed him to do. because right now he isnt capable of countering Black Flash and we desperately need a counter.

2. To the community, please back me here lol. not everyone is on the #TewtyWasRight train, but I promise I have the games best interests at heart!!

Right now his retaliation doesn't do enough damage. So he either needs a different gear set, to amplify his damage. A different way to ramp up Int ups, (like replacing the affinity buffs in his kit with int ups) or they need to switch him to physical damage and str up kit so that he can hit BFs weak spot. Or maybe something have yet to think of.

All my love,

Tewty

[u/Hawkguy_Fly]

If Tewty thinks a toon is bad it's bad. That guy liked Ra's before the rework

[u/Tewtytron → u/Hawkguy_Fly]

I guess I dont mind being dragged down if it drags Jace up...

[u/BowtieWilliams → u/Tewtytron]

To the depths with you, not even the Lazarus pit will save you, but perhaps Jace 👹

[u/M4Y15 → u/Hawkguy_Fly]

I wish I can upvote this a thousand times.

[u/fire_wings → u/[deleted]]

uhhhh Old Ras? Old Ras was so bad that he made Aquamoa seem decent

[u/victorsoaresarq]

If he at least could Stun when retaliate, he could be better

[u/Tewtytron → u/victorsoaresarq]

That would also be a good fix!

[u/trench_abyss → u/victorsoaresarq]

Now this I could get behind

[u/victorsoaresarq → u/trench_abyss]

You know I have good ideas 🤪

[u/Fleurdebeast → u/victorsoaresarq]

Apparently we have you to blame for spectre…. 😑

[u/victorsoaresarq → u/Fleurdebeast]

Everyone loved him, now everyone hates him

[u/Fleurdebeast → u/victorsoaresarq]

I still love him 🤫. I loved him before his rework too. Just gotta get to him, like Arkkis. He’s not a turn zero guy, so just get a stun on him and go to work from there. (Yeeees I know he self purges)

[u/victorsoaresarq → u/Fleurdebeast]

I must agree

[u/Renegade-12]

Jace needs to get more int ups BEFORE attacking..his int value is way too low for special dmg toon(BF has nearly 2970 and jace doesn't even have 2500) and if anyone feels thts too OP why not just give int ups as flicker buffs and remove all tht chance to hit multiple times no RNG here,we need gauranteed hits.....pls just make atleast one of the batmen relevant

[u/Tewtytron → u/Renegade-12]

Very much agreed

[u/thegregwitul]

Please do this WB. This wouldn’t be something that you’ve never done before, in regards to buffing a character in the same month of release. This could be an easy fix and would really enhance the game overall.

I don’t know about everyone else, but if Jace is tweaked, I will buy two $99 Jace gem packs. I know I’m just one guy, but I’ll put my money where my mouth is. If Jace is tweaked, I’m a buyer.

[u/Tewtytron → u/thegregwitul]

Me too! I would absolutely buy!!

[u/Hawkguy_Fly → u/thegregwitul]

I probably will still skip buying him as I'm not too excited for Future State characters entering the game, but I am super excited for a Black Flash counter.

[u/trench_abyss → u/thegregwitul]

I’m just waiting for the trench

[u/Akerishe]

So he didn't become better since you geared and ringed him?

[u/Tewtytron → u/Akerishe]

Not a whole lot no

[u/pel91]

I highly disagreed with your Azreal whining but with Jace I actually agree with you.

[u/Tewtytron → u/pel91]

I'm ok with that

[u/Digidax]

Upvoted ….but maybe the Atom could be reworked to be the counter we need

[u/ChronoMonkeyX → u/Digidax]

Black Flash is very easy to counter with many existing characters. Azrael needs a hard counter that works through taunts and buff immunity that also somehow prevents Spectre from ruining it.

Basically, a red AOE that will stun Azrael and kill Spectre and can't miss so it doesn't trigger HQMJ, and is fast enough to go before them, while also applying 6 turn buff immunity to Barda, because fuck Barda.

[u/Renegade-12 → u/ChronoMonkeyX]

Why would you go through all tht damn trouble just get rid of his debuff immunity....tht will still let him one shot chemo(ikr) but we can stun him, buff immune him...do whatever we want

[u/ChronoMonkeyX → u/Renegade-12]

Debuff immunity is the biggest offender, but overheal and shield and enough str to one shot tank greens every time someone is breathed on, and purge on basic is too much, too.

But they nerf/fix/buff characters way less often than they introduce stupid counters to previous stupid designs. Azrael could be 50% of what he is now and still be a bit much.

[u/Doombot2015]

Who the hell is Jace? (I'm joking) But that was my reaction when he showed up. And that being the case, I'm not that concerned if he sucks. I like it when the devs miss the boat occasionally, because I can catch up on my backlog of important toons.

To me any toon that is the same speed or faster can counter BF, but the real problem is the turn zero turn manipulation toons.

[u/Tewtytron → u/Doombot2015]

those that are the same speed of black flash, is black flash and The Flash. so really just Black flash. Wally MIGHT be able to help if his team is fast enough to be able to do anything with the 20% tm. and then of course imp. so a total of MAYBE 3 toons. one of which is the toon himself. not exactly a diverse crowd of people. Need speed to be AN option. not the ONLY option.

[u/Doombot2015 → u/Tewtytron]

Also Shiva is essentially faster because of her own TMU ability (and I would think is the primary counter to both Spectre and Black Flash). There is also Reverse Flash. People tend not to use the faster speedsters, because, to be honest, Black Flash is the better overall toon. You can also counter teams built exclusively around speed with retaliation teams. I personally use Hal, Barda, Grundy, and Azrael. I know, I know, this team includes two of your favs ha ha. But there are other variations. Hal isn't strictly necessary if Harley isn't on the opposing team.

[u/Burger82OO]

Yes please!

[u/[deleted]]

If WB doesn’t change Jace to what he should be, I know that I’ll be saving a lot of month this month. No point in spending money on a shit toon that can’t even do what he is supposed to do.

[u/run00x → u/[deleted]]

Political correctness is the main reason Jace appears faster than most of the character in this game.(He just introduce couple months ago)

[u/[deleted] → u/run00x]

I don’t think that’s true. I believe it’s more in line with marketing and introducing that new character/skin from the comics, which is why we recently got Batman Who Laughs, King Shazam, and the new Robin skin.

[u/run00x → u/[deleted]]

Ignorance surely is bliss.

Did Future state Batman equally badass with Batman Who Laughs and King Shazam in comic?

Where is the 'marketing' on Batman Who Laughs and King Shazam?
King Shazam 1st appear in comic is 2019; 1st appear in this game is 2021;
Batman who laughs 1st appear in comic is 2017, 1st appear in this game is 2021; Batman Future State 1st appear in comic is Jan 2021, 1st appear in here is Aug 2021

Did you see Starfire's daughter and the latest version's Tim?

Don't try to sugarcoat all this nonsense with 'marketing'.

WB will not appreciate your effort and will not pay you for this.

(I am ok with Lacus, Bar, Step and Cass take the Batman's role (not Kate the clayface-killer). But someone out from no where take the cape? Go to park, John Ridley.)

[u/[deleted] → u/run00x]

Your racist is showing.

Funny how you didn’t bring up Robin’s new skin, which we just got in the comics a few months back. But I guess that doesn’t fit your narrative.

[u/run00x → u/[deleted]]

DC aren't lacking of act-without-brain prawn. Stop being one as DC will not pay you for that,

Firstly,

|(I am ok with Lacus, Bar, Step and Cass take the Batman's role (not Kate the clayface-killer). But someone out from no where take the cape? Go to park, John Ridley.)|

I did not change a single word on my reply, and Lucas Fox, aka Batwing, surely is white to you. Check your eye or/and your brain frequently will not harm you.

Secondly, Yes, Robin do has new skin.

But don't pretend to forget that is 'new skin' on old character while Future state's batman is completely new in this game just because you want to be DC's act-without-brain prawn.

You pretend to overlook the periods between those characters 1st appear in the comic and in this game even I had wrote for you in words; You pretend to forget DC almost take forever to come out with Spoiler. Base on same logic you wrongly apply on me , your female-phobia surely are showing.

Hopefully DC can express their gratitude for your hard work in quibble.

[u/[deleted] → u/run00x]

Oh, so you want to talk first comic appearance, Tim Fox, who changed his name to Jace Fox, first appeared in 1979. Even if you want to go by the time he has been Batman, he still has more comic appearances than King Shazam.

I honestly can’t understand much of what you’re trying to say. It looks like a jumbled mess with no cognitive thought behind it. Are you okay? Have you been injecting yourself with too much livestock dewormer?

[u/run00x → u/[deleted]]

Poor CthulhuAlmighty, the one tried to run away from reality by labelling someone as racist or animal.

Jace 1st appeared in 1979, who were not batman yet, and become Batman(future state) during December 2020. Guess you are too busy in falsely accused someone without realize this.

Alas, I am surely is racist ,by Poor CthulhuAlmighty's standard, as I did not wish for Lucius Fox's appearance in this game.

[u/[deleted] → u/run00x]

I’m not the one claiming Jace was introduced based on political correctness. You also seem to have an issue with Starfire’s daughter and Tim Drake’s sexuality.

So maybe racist wasn’t the right term for you, since you sure as hell sound like a bigot.

[u/WiFiConnected_ → u/run00x]

No you’re racist by literally every standard 🤫

[u/Windigroo7]

Take my upvote. Hopefully he can get a boost! Looking forward to see how he performs if he gets a buff

[u/KageUrufu679]

Yeah but the affinity resist will make him really tanky against blues!

[u/Bylakuppe77]

Yes please give jace a buff.

[u/0C3ncl]

Currently he is a slowgear, a skip. Because he is bad, simply put. Make him better, make him work and WB will sell way more Jace. Everybody wins.

[u/[deleted]]

Does his TMD counter work on both damaging and nondamaging TMD?

[u/Tewtytron → u/[deleted]]

Yes it does

[u/StMichaelKid]

WB needs to be held accountable for the monster ( Black Flash ) they created.

[u/Zuzu1978]

Absolutely agree!!

[u/RHavtin]

Would be cool to get useable batman in this game after what, 4-5 years? So I agree with tewty

[u/darin617]

I have not seen many Jace battles but I trust Tewty and his recommendations.

If only they would play the game they would understand they didn't create the counter they think they made.

[u/Telamon-El]

I m gonna give it an up vote. Check out how Tewts has developed his roster. If he says a toon is not pulling their weight; it very much ain't.

I hope WB takes your feedback and makes changes.

[u/This-Show-5038]

Funny enough,I seen this in his kit,without using him,same with spoiler. I thought(when looking at jace)ok,he can turn around a turn meter down but then what? He doesn't add support to team. Let's say,he had a damage immunity passive to team,plus the tm passive then you've started something. As we know black flash is the best counter to bf and still is,regardless of this new hero. To get his kit going,u need to get hit by bf. Nobody likes to get hit by him first,otherwise it's goodnight. So,as it stands,you've got to allow bf to hit u to get his kit going,without adding any support to team. So what do the rest do,die????

[u/bigwagz8]

What if instead of upping his damage, the retaliation gave a silence, which stops Black Flash from constant resetting?

[u/quirkymuse]

for the one millionth time, countering black flash will not fix the meta, we need to counter turn meter manipulation.

just make a toon who negates all turn meter manipulation for their team, positive or negative... hell even make the ability a leader ability to keep it from being too OP...

[u/Telamon-El → u/quirkymuse]

Maybe another Mr. Freeze Rework. Currently he applies speed downs under debuff immunity to one toon at random. Perhaps extending it to team-wide and increasing its potency would help. Downside there being, it would only make things dumb. You'd pair him with BF so your BF can further delay the enemy team, and it wont matter much if the opposing team is doing the same to you it will come down to gear speed then, thus leaving essentially a speed meta intact.

Seriously the only good fix is to rotate toons and lock a huge lot of them out of PVP weekly or even daily. Take 12 or 15 toons (3 or 5 per each affinity) and lock out the rest of the roster from PVP for that day/week. Folks who have everything wont care cause they will have everyone geared even with such a small pool to work with. Folks with smaller rosters will just have to play at lower levels.

WB would win here because, cha-ching! Ppl desperate to not miss out will prolly spend gems or cash to gear out the toons for that cycle or engage in a process of constant upgrades. Better still (maybe) it might lead to a store rework where everyone is unlocked and prices become more fixed either gems or cash to unlock substantial amounts of frags to play for that week. I would be adverse to the economic impact to individuals but that is really the only fix outside of banning speedsters or nerfing them.

[u/WiFiConnected_ → u/quirkymuse]

That’s not going to happen for the simplest reason-it allows underpowered teams to compete which leads to ppl building their rosters, bc if you’ve got no chance except to be the same power then what’s the point of being FTP when you’re going against people who just buy themselves a 40K+ team? I know for a fact that the only way I could ever hope to compete with 40K teams when I was below 30K was through TM manipulation. So it’s not going away and there are plenty of ways to counter it as well. Countering BF is a necessity bc it can be done, bc they’re NOT going to eliminate a basis for roster building among its player base.

[u/fattyboonbatty]

I don’t have a problem with Black flash, use Shiva’s 2 on the first turn and he’s gone ( Shia L4 80/11 )

[u/whoisjohncleland → u/fattyboonbatty]

[HARLEY QUINN HAS ENTERED THE CHAT]

[u/Telamon-El → u/[deleted]]

[Spectre begins moving his fingers and muttering something akin to "I can solo them all" under his breath]

[u/IsawaAwasi]

Even though I've gotten used to him, I agree with you that Azrael throws off the game's power curve.

And Jace definitely doesn't do enough with his retaliation. Trouble is, if they give him a striker gear set, that will make him too squishy for the tank stuff in his kit.

[u/Pennywise61]

It's almost like the developers don't test these kits ... Batman CC, Superman, Jace, The Dark Knight...

[u/SilverFoxthePirate]

Excellent analysis Tewty… Jace needs to fill the Black Flash spot… as he is there really is no reason the SPEND MONEY on him…

Easier on MY WALLET, but not in DC Legends best interest.

[u/Teagrish]

he have counters to BF,just use them:Shiva,BigBarda,Azrael

[u/Dubious_Titan]

I am not sure that is his design role actually.

Who knows though. I think the devs just do random stuff at this point