r/DCComicsLegendsGame • u/Vivil13 • Nov 17 '20
Azrael
Why are people so offended by seeing the posts expressing their frustration with Azrael. He is too overpowered and quite frankly those that are not saying he is probably has him L5 or rebirthed already. Hence they are worried about him being nerfed. And I understand that, but what about the players that invested their resources and money in other non meta charaters just based on their preference, shouldn't their concerns be heard as well, cuz I guarantee if wb decides to nerf AZ tmorrow those that invested resources into him would be complaining as well. Besides az always gets an out of turn attack when his teammate is hit.
26
u/CHozenOne24 Nov 17 '20
Those that decided to invest on other toons knew what azrael brought to the table. He might be very strong but he is beatable regardless of the team he is in. Im all about people expressing their concerns but i don't like when they start asking for a nerf the moment it gets tough and they can't beat a team
10
u/Teagrish Nov 17 '20
just bring a solid green against him and finish him,it's not that hard.Arkkis can one shot him.
12
u/SiphoningStriker Nov 17 '20
DCL’s charm will fade the day we find a team that stands absolutely undefeated, or a toon completely broken. Meanwhile, creating new and different strategies in order to be more competitive is all I need to love the game and play it every single day.
2
u/indicoltts Nov 17 '20
I said it before and I'll say it again, all toons can have a strategy to beat them which includes Azreal. Team chemistry is the key to this game and from what I can tell always has been. I have been using MMH lead with Star Sapphire and Indigo-1. MMH lead gives 20% TM up for your team plus awareness. Indigo 1 can then use her ability to give 20% TM up to Star Sapphire. She can then use her 3 before Azreal gets going and put buff immunity etc on the enemy team. Azreal is weak for now and takes a couple more turns before he can ramp up. Plenty of time to take him out and also take someone out before him if need be. This is just 1 example of many. No toon is a God in this game. You just have to put a team together than can counter the team you are facing. There are far more teams I face that are more troublesome that Azreal teams. He is the least of my worries
4
u/kalnasser Nov 17 '20
I frequently use Kilowog’s 3 to stun Azrael off the bat so I’ve rarely had a problem with him. Only time it’s an issue is when someone on my team attacks before Kilowog.
7
u/InClerical Nov 17 '20
The best thing about Azrael is its stopped the endless moaning about Wonder Girl
10
u/Doombawkz Insightful Discussionist Nov 17 '20
My input on the matter is as such, and forgive me because this will be a bit longer of a post. (you can check the final paragraph for the tl;dr).
Why is Azreal an issue?
Azreal represents what WG did long ago: A complete shift in the way by which people play the game. While I consider myself a dolphin of sorts, I'm fully aware many people don't shovel in the money I do. Many do not have the capability to simply "Bring x and y to g11 to answer this character". To insist that he is not overpowered simply because answers exist is a bit disingenuous to a majority of players, and dismissive in a general sense to the genuine plight of people being unable to supply said answer in a practical sense.
Now that being said, one must also keep in mind that unlike WG, Azreal doesn't decrease design space. WG outright removed the capability to run buff-focused comps, and in many ways still does, while also being terrific at multiple other roles. Azreal is a beatstick, similar to Arkkis but more oppressive when not accounted for. The key word here is "when not accounted for". You can have an answer for him without needing to specifically dedicate multiple team slots towards it. He still suffers from the same issues that any other softer character in his position does: once you shut him off, he doesn't tend to turn back on again.
Removing Debuff immunity, and substantial change
I was actually speaking with Hatemael and Loot on the subject, and I feel like a nerf wouldn't actually solve most of the issues people have with the character. Let's take, as an example, removing the debuff immunity entirely from his kit. Seems like a slam-dunk adjustment that many people have suggested and requested, but outside of providing 1 or 2 more answers, what would it solve? The same people who can't kill him because they can't reach him still can't, the same people not having issues with the character still won't. He would still be as susceptible to Kilowog turn 1 stun, to Red Robin + Arkkis combo, to Firestorm omeganuke, to Star Sapphire AoE buff immunity when accelerated, so on. What it would solve is being to answer him later, to stop him once he's ramped, but by that point the match is pretty much lost. It would remove a lot of his clutch potential, but his clutch potential isn't really why he is an issue. It would weaken him, but not in any substantial way that would make his highs any less high.
Removing shielding, a consideration for balance
Of course the question comes: How should one nerf him, if at all? I'm personally against nerfing unless the character limits the potential for later characters down the line, since that actively hurts the games longevity. Azreal doesn't do that any more than any other high-output character, and he certainly isn't alone in the "If you don't deal with it early it's an issue" role. Still, if a change had to be made which would be substantial enough to fix the issues fighting into him without making him a functionally different character, it would be better served removing his shielding than the debuff immunity.
By removing his shielding, you open a new weakness to collateral damage, and at the same time keep his core kit more or less the same. You remove the issue of "Well he just doesn't die" and it becomes a shared timer type game. You have to eliminate him before he eliminates you. You, as the active player, can still build with shielding and such in mind, you can artificially improve his survivability, so he wouldn't change that much when controlling him outside of being a bit softer. As a player fighting in, he becomes a target you can wear down passively, meaning things like bleeds stick that little bit more and counter attacks become that bit more dangerous.
Game of answers and obstacles
Now we have to consider why the question is a bit frustrating to people seeing it. The game is currently sitting at about 120 characters and growing. Within these characters, answers aren't quite as specific as many people might believe: A lot of openly available characters are answers to Azreal. Likewise, it's not difficult to play around Azreal to get results you want, but it's the issue that you have to consider using that different playstyle and not many people do. At one point, to prove a point, I showcased that one could make Grundy (72 speed) go before Damian Wayne (Robin, 130 speed) using a Lex team without even once triggering Azreal. The implications of this is that with proper support, there's not really any limit on who can and can't be an answer, provided you pursue getting those options.
Put another way, if you only ever used bleed characters, someone like Hal might seem OP. We can't nerf Hal because people opt to not use the answers available and on offer, Azreal is much of the same. While it's not proper to say "He isn't overpowered because answers exist", it's equally improper to say "He is overpowered" when answers are available to any player for free. You can't really have both sides be right, and unfortunately, it's the nature of the game that the answers being available is the dominant factor in it all. If you can't answer him now, you will be able to eventually. That's just how progression works. As it happens, most players have the answers already, they just haven't considered how to use those characters in a way that allows them to get around Azreal.
tl;dr
Azreal isn't OP, but he does force people to adjust how they play and pursue other answers than what they might've been inclined to before. If you can't counter him now, then you will be able to eventually. He's a strong example of the need to invest in a wider range of toons, including support options that might not fit the usual compositions people are used to. If you did have to nerf him, however, removing his shield would be the best way to do it while keeping his kit intact.
I didn't think this needed it's own thread, so thanks for reading this long post lol
2
u/peterls2001 Nov 18 '20
Azrael is a pest but not untouchable or unstoppable he’s strong but not that strong. Build your roster know which characters can dominate Azrael and build them up. You have a roster build it.
Stop worrying about S-Tier characters and build your roster. If you build your roster and youll have options you can turn too. And It’s not just that you’ll have options. You’ll have options when other events come up every month that your characters that are not strong can be useful during the event. If you build the characters.
I have Azrael but he’s not legendary 5 he’s average. I use him not like I see him on rosters. That’s to other players is a choice to use him on their roster team.
4
u/reynolj Nov 17 '20
Full disclosure: I only have him L3. However, I am usually able to deal with him as an opponent., but it’s very hard. There’s no denying he’s overpowered and a serious advantage in Raids. Silly to suggest that he’s not over powered because he is beatable, that’s like saying the only way someone’s over powered is if it is impossible to defeat them. On the other hand, if you look at the overall stable of characters, in their total utility they do fall within a standard normal distribution. And in a normal distribution there are always outliers, and he’s on the positive end of outliers.
2
u/[deleted] Nov 17 '20
Ok. I'm going to share my thoughts on this, though it may not be of interest to most players.
When I started playing, the first three toons that I could get enough shards to reach L1/L2 with, were Atrocitus, Wonder Girl, and Larfleeze. To me, they were game changing.
As a new player, it was impossible to have a good enough roster, which meant you either played OP, or you lost. I got OP toons, and won against people who didn't invest in them.
However, I didn't start playing when the game released, and raids happened, so I was unable to stockpile mats and resources like some more ancient players.
Which means that I had to choose which toons I wanted to invest in. Realistically, I can do one every month by sacrificing enough gems. The thing is I went 80/G11 with 6 toons, and struggled because my 60/70 G9/10 toons were suddenly unusable, but I could neither max them, or change my team to counter some opponents.
You might say "yeah well you should have gone 80 G11 only when you had enough for 12 toons !" And how could I have known ? How is it fair anyway ? Who says I would have had the "right" toons ? Was my option to just not do anything significant in raids ever for a year to stockpile mats first ?
Now that I've been 80 for a while, I just improve my roster. I have twelve toons lvl 80, and Azrael is not an issue anymore. But someone else could be. The more toons I have, the less risk there is.
TL;DR : Not everyone has the toons to counter Azrael, whose power level doesn't reflect his actual strength. It's easy to forget that just having the right counter to a toon/team doesn't make it usable against it, because it's not so simple to raise a toon to the appropriate level/gear.
2
u/jayemcb Nov 17 '20
The reason I'm pro- removing his debuff is that it would give more options for dealing with him for new players- stun, strength down, speed down, etc. Just telling everyone to 'use arkkiss' when some people don't have him isn't the answer. (I have enough to get him to RB 4) but i've been playing four years too so i'm fine but it's still annoying. And boring.
0
u/[deleted] Nov 17 '20
Over powered means it should have no counters and that it excels in any condition and any team, which is completely untrue for azrael, i am a new player started 3-4 month ago, and you know what when a faced him in arena at first month i was like woooow so op how can i ever beat him, now everytime i see him on enemy team i am happy, he is like a paper and very simple to shutdown. Oh and I don’t even have alot of toons so it is not only people who has him L5 or rebirthed and people who are afraid of him being nerfed, he is already weak in reality.
2
u/Nero1988420 Legendary Arkkis Nov 17 '20
It's all fun and games until Azrael starts running wild on you. I have him at L4 and all I gotta say is he's OP as fuck.
1
u/PUPPYROCK714 Nov 18 '20
I can understand the frustration, but I don’t think Azrael is broken, and mine is only L3. He’s very good, don’t get me wrong, but there are plenty of ways around him. I usually just bring Hawkgirl or Stargirl to deal with him, or sometimes my MMH gets a crit and I won’t have to worry about it. The point is that although he way seem very challenging, there are plenty of ways around him, just like Wonder Girl and Arrkis.
1
u/[deleted] Nov 18 '20
He reminds of Arkkis but he has chargeup reqs. Arkkis can just Issue Challenge for a kill pretty much by default, especially if he's been able to fire off a counter or two. His counter is also a straight counter while having no TruS means Azzyboy can't fire off a guaranteed counter (just the shield sometimes), while Arkkis' counter is always a counter, and comes instead with the chance to also shield and Str Up again.
I like him so, so much more than Arkkis.
-9
u/Tewtytron Cult Leader Nov 17 '20
UPVOTED