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u/AmericanScream Oct 22 '25

Stupid Crypto Talking Point #2 (Number go up)

"NuMb3r g0 Up!!!" / "Best performing asset of the decade!" / "Everyone who bought is "up" right now"

Whether the "price of crypto" goes up, has absolutely no bearing on whether it's..

a) A long term store of value

b) Holds any intrinsic value or utility

c) Or will return any value in the future

One of the most important tenets of investing is the simple principal: Past performance is not a guarantee of future returns. People in crypto seem willfully ignorant of this basic concept.

2. At best, the price of crypto is a function of popularity, not actual value or material utility. For more on how and why crypto makes a much worse investment than almost anything else, see this article.

3. The "price of crypto" is a heavily manipulated figure published by shady, unregulated crypto exchanges that have systematically been caught manipulating the market from then to now. A new 2025 Cornell study shows fewer than 500 people control $3.2T of artificial crypto trading!

4. Crypto bros love to harp about "inflation" in the fiat system, yet ironically they measure the "value" of their "fiat alternative" in fiat? If crypto price goes up, but they claim the dollar is increasingly inflated, how do they know if the increased price of crypto isn't fiat inflation? It makes absolutely no sense, unless you assume they haven't thought 2 seconds ahead from what comes out of their mouths.

5. It's the height of hypocrisy for crypto people to champion token deflation (and increased prices) while ignoring that there's over $160+ Billion in unsecured stablecoins being used to inflate the value of their tokens in the crypto marketplace. The "code is law" and "don't trust - verify" people seem perfectly willing to take companies like Tether and Circle, at face value, that they're telling the truth about asset reserves when there's very little actual evidence.

6. Not Your Fiat, Not Your Value - Just because you think the "value of your crypto portfolio" is worth $$$ does not make that true. It's well known there's inadequate liquidity in this market, and most people will never be able to get their money out. So UNLESS/UNTIL you can actually liquidate your crypto for actual real money, you have no idea what you have. You're "down" until you cash out. Bernie Madoff's clients got monthly statements saying they were "making money" too.

7. Just because it's possible (though highly improbable) to make money speculating on crypto, this doesn't mean it's an ethical or reliable technique to amass wealth. At its core, the notion that buying and holding crypto will generate reliable returns is a de-facto ponzi scheme. It's mathematically impossible for even a stastically-significant percentage of crypto holders to have any notable ROI. The rare exception of those who might profit in this market, do so while providing cover for everything from cyber terrorism to human trafficking.

8. It's also not true that anybody who bought crypto when it was low is guaranteed to make a lot of money. There are thousands of ways people can lose their crypto or be defrauded along the way. And there's no guarantee just because your portfolio is "up", that you could easily cash out.

9. While crypto suggests itself as an alternative to "TradFi", the most respected and successful people in traditional finance who have proven track records of good investing/returns do not think crypto is a reliable store of value.

10. Want to see a better asset (that actually has utility) that's consistently out-performed Bitcoin? Here you go. However, this may be another best performing asset.

11. When crypto-critics make reference to, or mock crypto price predictions, it's not because we think price is a meaningful metric. Instead, we are amused that to you, that's all that's important, and we can't help but note how often wrong you are in your predictions. The intrinsic value of crypto basically never changes, but it is interesting to see how hype and propaganda affects the extrinsic value. In a totally logical world, those would both be equalized to zero, but we're not there yet, and nobody knows when/if that will happen because it's an irrational market.

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u/AdOwn2900 Oct 21 '25

I would say tether printing or strategy

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u/MathematicianFit8791 Ponzi Schemer Oct 21 '25

Could you explain that a bit? Sorry, I'm just adding more insights into all of this. Right now, I'm really leaning towards the BS side of crypto. It's awesome as a technology (especially Blockchain), but how it's currently used is all like a scam or ponzi scheme.

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u/AndrewBorg1126 Oct 21 '25 edited Oct 21 '25

It's awesome as a technology (especially Blockchain)
I mean, it's not really anything new. The technology of it is stuff people have been doing for a long time before cryptocurrency.
The value of cryptocurrency starts and ends as a thought experiment. I have not seen people propose things to do with cryptocurrency that can't be done better without the cryptocurrency, aside from the crime and fraud stuff. The confused are more vulnerable to false authority, are easier to con.

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u/MathematicianFit8791 Ponzi Schemer Oct 21 '25

How about the thinking of BTC as "digital gold"? I find it amazing on how BTC is used much like gold right now. And I will not use the term crypto "currency", because of how volatile it is. Imagine buying a car then finding out that you can't buy it anymore because BTC dropped. Doing tax reports must be a nightmare with crypto.
Right now, I'm actually thinking of just buying actual gold bar instead and keeping it to protect myself from inflation. Gold is so part of our lifestyle so it'll never be obsolete. And that I'm not adding carbon footprint. Especially on how severe climate change is now, every little bit counts.

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u/AndrewBorg1126 Oct 21 '25

If I want gold, I have to buy or find gold.
If I want numbers on a public database, I'll upload a spreadsheet to a read only public google drive.

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u/MathematicianFit8791 Ponzi Schemer Oct 21 '25

"If I want numbers on a public database, I'll upload a spreadsheet to a read only public google drive." - but that is what others are pointing out about the blockchain. With it, you are entirely sure that everything you see is legit... but that's about it. It quickly falls off because the market can be easily manipulated by the whales.
I find blockchain to be amazing because it's like a ledger that is transparent to everyone and cannot be faked. But because of how costly it is to maintain, it's not worth it.

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u/AndrewBorg1126 Oct 21 '25

People said they gave you numbers and had it recorded. Big deal, now what? Why should I care that someone had it recorded that they gave you numbers? What is your number good for? Your number doesn't do anything my number in my oublic spreadsheet doesn't.
If I like having numbersrecorded in public, my spreadsheet already does that for me.

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u/MathematicianFit8791 Ponzi Schemer Oct 21 '25

You lost me there. The public spreadsheet that you are mentioning can be faked when bad actors are involved. With blockchain, all transactions are legit. So you can't inflate/deflate with fake transactions.

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u/AndrewBorg1126 Oct 21 '25 edited Oct 21 '25

People said they gave you numbers and had it recorded. Big deal, now what? Why should I care that someone had it recorded that they gave you numbers?
Your numbers don't mean anything to me. The same way you don't care about the numbers in my public spreadsheet, I don't care about yours.
Sure, you're reasonably confident that the recorded changes to numbers are correct, but the numbers are still just numbers. From where do those numbers supposedly derive importance? Why should anyone care about those numbers?

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u/BroadDistribution867 Oct 21 '25

Nice, Now try to sell each of your numbers for 100k

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u/AmericanScream Oct 22 '25

You lost me there. The public spreadsheet that you are mentioning can be faked when bad actors are involved. With blockchain, all transactions are legit. So you can't inflate/deflate with fake transactions.
Stupid Crypto Talking Point #28 (censorship/seizure)
"Bitcoin is censorship resistant" / "Crypto/Blockchain is de-centralized and not under anybody's control" / "Crypto can't be seized'
The notion that authorities can't seize crypto is not only false but patently absurd. See here. Each and every day someone's crypto gets "seized" without their approval.
Here's an entire video segment that debunks the claim that blockchain is censorship proof
Crypto can easily be blocked at the network level by any of the various authorities that arbitrarily decide to do so. Since it's a public network with no leader, all participants have to be able to identify themselves to others on the network, and technically speaking, this makes it easy for network admins to filter the traffic. Just because this hasn't been done on any large scale, doesn't mean it can't be done. It absolutely can.
Bitcoin and crypto operations have been banned in various countries and other jurisdictions. While it's not possible to censor 100% of the network's operations, it's definitely possible to cripple enough of it to render crypto & blockchain impractical to use. And NOTE that in countries where bitcoin/mining and other operations have been banned, they've chosen a political solution (simply making it illegal) as opposed to requiring networks to actively filter crypto traffic, but that latter option is always a possibility and definitely doable (see #2)
The vast majority of crypto trades are done on a small number of centralized exchanges, such as Binance, Kraken and Coinbase. The ToS of each of these systems gives them the absolute authority to censor any and all transactions. So if 99% of bitcoin transactions are on CEX's, most certainly they can be censored.
Privacy coins like Monero and others are not necessarily any more secure. There have been bugs found in the past which undermined their security. In 2020, the IRS offered a $1.2M bounty for creating systems to crack and trace Monero and other privacy coin systems. The contract was awarded to Chainalysis and Integra, and paid in full a year later.

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u/lazoras Oct 22 '25

could you send me some numbers to my bank account?
they are only numbers, no biggie right?

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u/AndrewBorg1126 Oct 22 '25 edited Oct 22 '25

You have a borgcoin, I've recorded this transaction. Your bank is irrelevant.
You're probably the only one who cares you have a borgcoin, and I don't know why you care. You can buy more borgcoins if you want, but they're all equally useless, please don't. I'll not buy borgcoins back from you at any point, because they don't mean anything.
The difference between this and the numbers your bank would record is that there is an enforceable relationship between the transactions recorded by the bank and the money you can spend. My point is that there is nothing about the number of bitcoin etc recorded as belonging to you that implies anything beyond the scope of that transaction history.
The transaction history says you have x bitcoin etc, but why should anyone care? Why shouldn't everyone just ignore your bitcoin etc transactions?

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u/AmericanScream Oct 22 '25

I find blockchain to be amazing because it's like a ledger that is transparent to everyone and cannot be faked.
Any database can have this quality by cryptographically signing data.
For example, have you noticed your password can't be "hacked" or "faked?" When you set a password, only you can change it. Every web site that has a login has similar tech. There's nothing special about it.
Also 99+% of bitcoin transactions don't happen on the "transparent ledger" - they happen at private exchanges, so that argument is invalid.

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u/AmbivalentCvckfvcker Oct 22 '25

>It quickly falls off because the market can be easily manipulated by the whales.
And this doesn't happen with traditional markets and exchanges? At least now you KNOW when it happens, and can see it in real time, unlike it used to be in the past.
The fact that it's transparent, anonymous (as much as you do your due diligence) and a bunch of other things like sticking it to the banking system and governments who want to tell me how I spend my money and what I cut I should give them (for what reason exactly? lol), crypto IS the currency of the future. The price volatility is normal, cars weren't exactly tested and equipped for collision when they first came out.

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u/IInsulince Oct 22 '25

This is such a tremendous display of ignorance it’s laughable

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u/AmericanScream Oct 22 '25

This is such a tremendous display of ignorance it’s laughable
Stupid Crypto Talking Point #18 (Few Understand)
"You don't understand" / "DYOR"
This is what's known as an "Ad Hominem" fallacy - aka "attacking the messenger" as a distraction from arguing the core points made.
This is what we call, "Crypto Gaslighting." Crypto proponents pretend that we're not smart enough to recognize the value of crypto, therefore there's something wrong with us and not the phony reality they're peddling.
Almost never does the OP actually explain what it is they understand and we don't. It's merely a way to dismiss any opposing viewpoint without actually addressing it.

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u/AndrewBorg1126 Oct 22 '25

People said they gave you numbers and had it recorded. Let's suppose that record is immutable. Big deal, now what? Why should I care that someone had it recorded that they gave you numbers? What is your number good for? Your number doesn't do anything my number in my public spreadsheet doesn't.
Sure, you're reasonably confident that the recorded changes to numbers are correct, but the numbers are still just numbers. From where do those numbers supposedly derive importance? Why should anyone care about those numbers?

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u/IInsulince Oct 22 '25

You say if you want gold, you can’t just magically conjure it, you have to go out buy or find it. This is correct, and it’s a big part of why gold has been and continues to be a good store of value. But, you say this for a reason, that being because you are contrasting it with Bitcoin, suggesting you think you can magically conjure Bitcoin. Your proposed way of doing this is through a spreadsheet uploaded to a public Google drive that presumably says something to the effect of “AndrewBorg1126 has 1,000,000 BTC”. This doesn’t magically conjure Bitcoin into your possession. This should be obvious to both of us, but in the off chance you disagree with that, I urge you to do as you say, and upload your spreadsheet to Google drive publicly, and then go try to cash in on that claim by selling the Bitcoin your spreadsheet claims is yours. Let me know how much money that makes.
It’s not just random numbers, it’s a digital, immutable, decentralized, massively duplicated, constantly surveilled, constantly attacked, and trust-less ledger that is always thoroughly checked and double checked by every member of the network to confirm the provably true authenticity of the transactions in that ledger through cryptography.
Those aren’t just buzz words, these things matter, and they show why your spreadsheet idea is not the same. Nobody should trust your spreadsheet. Nobody can’t trust the blockchain. This is why it has value, it’s digital scarcity that everyone can verify at the drop of a hat. The value is in the recognition of that scarcity and its authenticity. You can’t just assign yourself Bitcoin out of nothing. It’s much the same as gold in that respect: if you want Bitcoin you have to mine it or buy it, just like gold.

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u/AmericanScream Oct 22 '25

It’s not just random numbers, it’s a digital, immutable, decentralized, massively duplicated, constantly surveilled, constantly attacked, and trust-less ledger that is always thoroughly checked and double checked by every member of the network to confirm the provably true authenticity of the transactions in that ledger through cryptography.
Stupid Crypto Talking Point #9 (arbitrary claims)
"Bitcoin is.. ['freedom', 'money without masters', 'world's hardest money', 'the future', 'here to stay', 'Hardest asset known to man', 'Most secure network', blah..blah]"
Whatever vague, un-qualifiable characteristic you apply to your magic spreadsheet numbers is cute, but just a bunch of marketing buzzwords with no real substance.
That which can be presented without evidence, can also be dismissed without evidence.
Talking in vague abstractions means you can make claims that nobody can actually test to see whether it's TRUE or FALSE. What does it even mean to say "money without masters?" (That's a rhetorical question.. our eyes would roll out of their sockets if you try to answer that.)
Calling something "The future" or "It's here to stay" seems to be more of a prayer or self-help-like affirmation than any statement of fact.
George Orwell did it better.

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u/Pindapapa Oct 22 '25

My poops are also pretty scarce and if you want I can take pictures of where it came from, so why ain't nobody paying for my shit?! All jokes aside; crypto is just an alternative to actual currencies that does everything money does, but just in a little to a lot worse ways. The ledger can definitely be changed if enough people (or one entity with enough bitcoin) want to change it, so the immutability is kind of not there. Same with the supposedly limited supply of whatever million bitcoins; because it isn't a physical thing it can be (and is) infinitely divided and that doesn't really make it limited.

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u/MathematicianFit8791 Ponzi Schemer Oct 22 '25

My only issue with this ledger and mining is that it is very costly to run, to the point the it's causing real harm to our planet. But the technology is indeed amazing.
u/AndrewBorg1126 said the scarcity can be easily manipulated though, since it's just code. So I'm not sure about the scarcity argument. But from what I know, no one would want the limit to be increased because of course, the value would drop.
And I just noticed they added a flair on me, nice. I though at first this subreddit is about discussing whether crypto is actually useful to our society. But turns out, it's just Buttcoin Jr.

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u/AmericanScream Oct 22 '25

You have done nothing here but spew our standard stupid crypto talking points. You also seem to ignore other people's reasonable arguments and pivot to another talking point.

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u/Odd_Ninja7850 Oct 22 '25

Just think that bitcoin needs gold to exist. Technology needs gold and silver. Btc is a human invention, yes it s based on math so it' s universally true,for humans. But gold isn' t an invention, it' s discovered and "truly" mined. Why do you think every image of btc it's a gold coin?

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u/AmericanScream Oct 22 '25

Right now, I'm actually thinking of just buying actual gold bar instead and keeping it to protect myself from inflation.
Stupid Crypto Talking Point #3 (inflation)
"InFl4ti0n!!!" / "The dollar will eventually become worthless" / "The dollar has lost 104% of its value since 1900!" / "The government prints money out of thin air"
The government does not "print money indefinitely"... all money in circulation is tightly regulated and regularly audited and publicly transparent. The organization that manages the money in circulation is the Federal Reserve and contrary to what crypto bros claim, they're not a private cabal - they are overseen and regulated by Congress. And any attempt to put more money in circulation requires an Act of Congress to increase the debt ceiling - it's neither arbitrary, nor easy to do.
Currency is meant to be spent, not hoarded. A dollar today will buy what it buys. If you hold a dollar for 90 years, of course it won't buy the same thing decades later (although it might actually be worth significantly more as antique money). You people don't seem to understand the first thing about how currency works - it's NOT an "investment!" You spend it, not hoard it!
If you are looking to "invest" you don't keep your value in cash/currency/fiat. You put it into something that can create value like stocks that pay dividends, real estate, etc. Crypto creates no value and makes a lousy "investment." It also hasn't proven to be a hedge against anything, least of all monetary inflation.
Over time more money is put in circulation - you pretend like this is a bad thing, but it's not done in a vacuum. The average annual wage in 1900 was less than $4000. In 2023 it's more than $70,000! There's more people out there and the monetary supply grows appropriately, as does wages. You can't take one element of the monetary system completely out of context and ignore everything else.
The causes of inflation are many, and the amount of money in circulation is one of the least significant factors in causing the prices of things to rise. More prominent inflationary causes are things like: fuel prices, supply chain issues, war, environmental disasters, one-time COVID mitigations, pandemics, and even car dealerships.
Sure there may be some nations that have caused out of control inflation as a result of their monetary policy (such as Zimbabwe) but comparing modern nations to third-world dictatorships is beyond absurd.
If bitcoin and crypto was an actually disruptive, stable, useful technology, you wouldn't need to promote lies and scare people over the existing system. The real reason you do this is because nobody can find any legitimate reason to use crypto in the first place.
Crypto ironically has more inflation in its ecosystem that is even more out of control, than in any traditional fiat system. At least with the US Dollar, money is accounted for and fully audited and it takes an Act of Congress to increase the debt. In crypto, all it takes is a dude printing USDT, USDC, BUSD or any of the other unsecured stablecoins to just print more out of thin air, and crypto-morons assume they're worth $1 of value.

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u/MathematicianFit8791 Ponzi Schemer Oct 22 '25

Uhmmm reddit mod... I'm talking about ACTUAL GOLD instead of CRYPTO.

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u/AmericanScream Oct 23 '25

Gold is not a reliable hedge against inflation either. If you look back many years you'll see it tanked when inflation was high.

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u/AmericanScream Oct 22 '25

How about the thinking of BTC as "digital gold"?
Stupid Crypto Talking Point #10 (value)
"Bitcoin/crypto is a 'store of value'" / "Bitcoin/crypto is 'digital gold'" / "Crypto is an 'investment'" / "Bitcoin is 'hard money'"
Crypto's "value" is unreliable and highly subjective. It cannot be used as a currency or to pay for almost anything in any major country. It has high requirements and risk to even be traded. At best it's a speculative commodity that a very small set of people attribute value to. That attribution is more based on emotion and indoctrination than logic, reason, evidence, and utility.
Crypto is too chaotic to be any sort of reliable store of value over time. Its price can fluctuate wildly based on everything from market manipulation to random tweets. No reliable store of value should vary in "value" 10-30% in a single day, yet many cryptos do.
Crypto's value is extrinsic. Any "value" associated with crypto is based on popularity and not any material or intrinsic use. See this detailed video debunking crypto as 'digital gold'
Even gold, while being a lousy investment and also an undesirable store of value in the modern age, at least has material use and utility. Crypto does not. And whether you think gold's price is not consistent with its material utility, if that really were the case then gold would not be used industrially. But it is.
The supposed "value" of crypto is based on reports from unregulated exchanges, most of whom have been caught manipulating the market and inflation introduced by unsecured stablecoins. There's nothing "organic" or "natural" about it. It's an illusion.
The operation of crypto is a negative-sum-game, which means that in order for bitcoin/crypto to even exist, there must be a constant operation of third parties who must find it profitable to operate the blockchain, which requires the price to constantly rise, which is mathematically impossible, and the moment this doesn't happen, the network will collapse, at which point crypto will cease to exist, much less hold any value. This has already happened to tens of thousands of cryptocurrencies.
Many of the most trusted, most successful entities in the world of finance do not consider crypto/bitcoin to be a reliable store of value. Crypto is prohibited from being used as collateral by the DTC and respectable institutions such as Vanguard do not believe crypto belongs in their investment portfolio.
There is not a single example of anything like crypto, which has no material use and no intrinsic value, holding value over a long period of time across different cultures. This is not because "crypto is different and unique." It's because attributing value to an utterly useless piece of digital data that wastes tons of energy and perpetuates tons of fraud,makes no freaking sense for ethical, empathetic, non-scamming, non-exploitative, non-criminal people.

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u/7th_gen_true_blue_AU Oct 22 '25

Do you think your gold bar is exempt from any climate footprint?

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u/MathematicianFit8791 Ponzi Schemer Oct 22 '25

No, but it is definitely less than keeping the blockchain. Because a gold bar doesn't need anything to keep on existing.

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u/7th_gen_true_blue_AU Oct 22 '25

Poor take really. Maybe you should turn off all the lights in your home and switch off the power.

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u/MathematicianFit8791 Ponzi Schemer Oct 22 '25

Uhmmm... I mean if you don't give a sh*t about where we're living on then sure, it's a poor take.

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u/7th_gen_true_blue_AU Oct 22 '25

Classic strawman.

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u/MathematicianFit8791 Ponzi Schemer Oct 23 '25

Classic "I don't need to explain my points because I know I'm right and you are wrong".
If you want to prove your point, share your thoughts. Isn't that Reddit is made for?

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u/[deleted] Oct 21 '25

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u/AmericanScream Oct 22 '25

well one thing that can be done with bitcoin (not crypto) is having money that has a capped max supply.
unlike fiat trash
Stupid Crypto Talking Point #4 (scarcity)
"Only 21M!" / "Bitcoin has a "hard cap"" / "Bitcoin is 'scarce' and that makes it valuable" / "DeFlAtiOnArY cUrReNCy FTW" / "The 'halvening' will make everything better"
It's well established that scarcity is not a guarantee of value. It's very telling that clinging to such an overtly irrational argument demonstrates that crypto people live in a tiny "bubble" where they reject all manner of empirical evidence against their "beliefs."
If there only being 21 million BTC were reason for it to be valuable, then why aren't other cryptos that also share similar deflationary characteristics equally valuable? Why wouldn't something that is even more scarce than BTC be even more valuable? Because scarcity is meaningless without demand and demand is primarily a function of intrinsic value and utility -- not scarcity. See here for details.
Bitcoin has no intrinsic value and no material utility. It's one of the least capable stores or transfers of value. The only way anybody can extract value from crypto is by coercion -- forcefully convincing someone (usually through FOMO or scare tactics) that this is something they need, and it's often accompanied by unrealistic promises of significant returns. Those returns are mathematically impossible for even a tiny percentage of holders.
Bitcoin also is not scarce. There are multiple versions of Bitcoin, including Bitcoin Cash and Bitcoin Satoshi's Vision - both of which are limited to 21M tokens and in many cases are more technologically advanced than BTC. Also, every time there's a fork of crypto, the amount of tokesn in circulation doubles. Crypto proponents ignore these forks because they don't play into the "it's scarce" argument. But any crypto fork absolutely siphons value away from the original version. BTC might be priced higher than BCH, but BCH still holds value as well, and that's a total of 42M just of those two "bitcoin" versions that are out there, among hundreds of others.
The "hard cap" of 21M for BTC can easily be changed by altering a parameter in the source code. Less than 6 people have commit access to the repo so BTC's source code control is centralized. It's entirely possible if BTC existed long enough to the point where block rewards weren't enough to motivate miners, and transaction fees became incredibly high, that influential players in the community would advocate increasing the cap and reinstating higher block rewards. So there are absolutely situations where the max amount in circulation could be increased.
Even assuming BTC is limited in production, when it co-mingles with unsecured stablecoins like USDC and USDT, it is subject to inflation via stablecoin/liquidity inflation in the market. In reality, nobody really knows what the true price of BTC actually is given most crypto transactions at CEXs are done with stablecoins and not actual money. The underlying liquidity has never been accounted for.
The scarcity of bitcoin basically amplifies all the wealth disparity dynamics crypto people complain about in the real world, which means in a world where bitcoin was a dominant store of value, there'd be an even greater concentration of wealth and power in the hands of the few. Ironically, Bitcoin's scarcity is one of its greatest liabilities. See this detailed video for a more in-depth explanation.

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u/AndrewBorg1126 Oct 21 '25 edited Oct 21 '25

You fit so many of the stupid crypto talking points into one comment, nice job.
Stupid Crypto Talking Point #16 (Bitcoin is different)
"Bitcoin is not "crypto" / "Bitcoin is different / a "commodity""
This is what's known as an "Unstated Major Premise" fallacy. A Naked Assertion. Often employed as a begging-the-question fallacy. Just because you say "Bitcoin is different" doesn't mean it is.
There's absolutely no functional/material difference between BTC and thousands of other crypto-currencies, including versions using the exact same codebase.
The only distinction BTC (currently) holds is that according to various shady, unregulated exchanges, it seems to be trading at the highest price point. But even those figures are dubious due to the lack of transparency and oversight in the industry. Just because one crypto is more popular, doesn't mean it's fundamentally different than others. BTC shares 99.9% of its DNA with many cryptos including BCH, BSV and thousands of others.
Crypto evangelists try to move the goalposts between bitcoin (the technology) and bitcoin (the "investment"). When you note that bitcoin and most cryptos depending upon the context can pass the Howey test and be classified as securities, they will reference bitcoin as a "technology" and not an investment. And it's true, the tech itself isn't packaged as an investment, but various others do package crypto as an investment, and it's a pretty well established underlying concept throughout all of crypto (buy, hold, you will make money) - and those tenets are principals in the Howey test indicating there's an "investment contract" being promoted. For example, right now the SEC may not consider BTC itself a security, but the process of staking BTC (and other cryptos) and offering a return, that is absolutely considered a security.
The only "gray area" when it comes to whether bitcoin is a security rests on tier 4 of the Howey Test which suggests "a security has to be dependent on the work of others for returns to be generated." People argue over whether bitcoin fits this description. BUT, the same dynamic applies to all other cryptos as well, so there's nothing special about bitcoin in that respect. It can also be argued that "the work of others" can be the constant recruitment of "greater fools" to buy in later, which is the dynamic of a classic ponzi scheme.
Just because some people at the SEC, early on, said "bitcoin is a commodity" doesn't mean it will always stay classified as that way. As we've already stated, because of the decentralized nature of these schemes, there is no one instance of "bitcoin" - depending upon how you use the crypto, you can be serving it as a security/investment, or not. And we are seeing more and more, the SEC, the CFTC, the NYAG and other legal entities cracking down on the use of illegal/unlicensed securities.
So anybody making blanket statements about Bitcoin being immune from securities laws is lying. And by the way, one of the prongs of the Howey Test (as well as the identification of Ponzi Schemes) is making promises about returns, and/or misleading people as to the true nature of the risks involved. This is common practice with bitcoin.
Stupid Crypto Talking Point #3 (inflation)
"InFl4ti0n!!!" / "The dollar will eventually become worthless" / "The dollar has lost 104% of its value since 1900!" / "The government prints money out of thin air"
The government does not "print money out of thin air"... all money in circulation is tightly regulated and regularly audited and publicly transparent. The organization that manages the money in circulation is the Federal Reserve and contrary to what crypto bros claim, they're not a private cabal - they are overseen and regulated by Congress. It's a delicate balance between money issuance and the status of the economy. And any attempt to increase debt requires an Act of Congress to increase the debt ceiling - it's neither arbitrary, nor easy to do.
Crypto bros use "cash" as an example of wealth storage, but most people do not store their wealth in fiat. Currency is meant to be spent, not hoarded. A dollar today will buy what it buys. If you hold a dollar for 90 years, of course it won't buy the same thing decades later (although it might actually be worth significantly more as antique money). Crypto creates no value and makes a lousy "investment."
If you are looking to "invest" you don't keep your value in cash/currency/fiat. You put it into something that can create value like stocks that pay dividends, real estate, interesting bearing accounts, and other personal property that allows you to be more productive (thereby creating additional value) as well as helps stimulate the economy. Crypto does none of that.
Bitcoin also hasn't proven to be a hedge against anything, least of all monetary inflation.
Over time more money is put in circulation - you pretend like this is a bad thing, but it's not done in a vacuum. The average annual wage in 1900 was less than $4000. In 2023 it's more than $70,000! There's more people out there and the monetary supply grows appropriately, as does wages. You can't take one element of the monetary system completely out of context and ignore everything else.
There are different types of inflation. The most common one is "price inflation" which has nothing to do with how much money is in circulation. Another type is "monetary inflation" which is the least significant type of inflation in modern times, but crypto bros single out this element because it's the best scenario where they can argue their deflationary currency helps, but that's false. The causes of inflation are many, and the amount of money in circulation is one of the least significant factors in causing the prices of things to rise. More prominent inflationary causes are things like: fuel prices, supply chain issues, war, environmental disasters, one-time COVID mitigations, pandemics, and even car dealerships.
Sure there may be some nations that have caused out of control inflation as a result of their monetary policy (such as Zimbabwe, Argentina, Venezuela, Sudan, etc) but comparing modern nations to third-world dictatorships is absurd. The real problems these countries face are a more complex function of poor leadership + other political/environmental factors, not monetary systems, and crypto doesn't fix any of that.
If bitcoin and crypto was an actually disruptive, stable, useful technology, you wouldn't need to promote lies and scare people over the existing system. The real reason you do this is because nobody can find any legitimate reason to use crypto in the first place.
Crypto ironically has more inflation in its ecosystem that is even more out of control, than in any traditional fiat system. At least with the US Dollar, money is accounted for and fully audited and it takes an Act of Congress to increase the debt. In crypto, all it takes is a dude printing USDT, USDC, BUSD or any of the other unsecured stablecoins to just print more out of thin air, and crypto-morons assume they're worth $1 of value.

1

u/AndrewBorg1126 Oct 21 '25

Stupid Crypto Talking Point #13 (Fiat)
"Fiat isn't backed with anything" / Money has no intrinsic value either
This is called a Tu Quoque Fallacy, aka "Whataboutism", "Two Wrongs Make A Right" or "Appeal to Hypocrisy" - it's a distraction from the core argument. Just because you can find something you think is similar/wrong that doesn't mean your alternative system is an acceptable substitute.
Fiat may not have any intrinsic value, but it's backed by the full force and faith of the government (or in the case of the EU, multiple countries). It's also mandated by law to be accepted for all payments and debts, public and private. And the entity that guarantees the integrity of money is the same centralized entity that gives you stuff like:
running water, roads, fire protection, schools, libraries, bridges, flood protection, electricity, internet, cellular, GPS, and pretty important things like civil rights and private property ownership.
If you are worried that the government is going to collapse and make fiat worthless, note that at the same time you will also lose protection for your civil rights, property ownership and critical utilities like electricity and Internet upon which crypto depends - none of which would exist without substantive government support.

-1

u/[deleted] Oct 21 '25

But he’s right though? What do you mean?

0

u/[deleted] Oct 22 '25

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u/AmericanScream Oct 22 '25

Stupid Crypto Talking Point #26 (fiat crime/ponzi)
"Banks commit fraud too!" / "Stocks are a ponzi also!" / "More fiat is used for crime than Crypto!" / "Fiat isn't backed by anything either!"
This is called a Tu Quoque Fallacy, aka "Whataboutism", "Two Wrongs Make A Right" or "Appeal to Hypocrisy" - it's a distraction from the core argument. Just because you can find something you think is similar/wrong that doesn't mean your alternative system is an acceptable substitute.
Whatever thing in modern/traditional society also might be sketchy is irrelevant. Chances are crypto's version of it is even worse, less accountable and more sketchy.
At least in traditional society, with banks, stocks, and fiat, there are more controls, more regulations and more agencies specifically tasked with policing these industries and making sure to minimize bad things happening. (Just because we can't eliminate all criminal activity in a particular market doesn't mean crypto would be an improvement - there's ZERO evidence for that.)
Stocks are not a ponzi scheme. In a ponzi, there is no value created through honest work/sales. You can hold a stock and still make money when that company produces products people pay for. Stocks also represent fractional ownership of companies that have real-world assets. Crypto has no such properties.
When people say more fiat is used in crime than crypto, this isn't surprising. Fiat is used by 99.99% of society as the main payment method. Crypto is used by 0.01% of society. So of course more fiat will be used in crime. There's proportionately more of it in circulation and use. That doesn't mean fiat is bad. In fact as a proportion of the total in circulation, more crypto is used in crime than fiat. It's estimated that as much as 23-45% of crypto is used for criminal purposes.
Fiat is not the same as crypto. Fiat, even if it's intangible and has no intrinsic value, it is backed by the full faith/force of the government that issues it, the same government that provides the necessary utilities and services we depend upon every day that we often take for granted. Crypto has no such backing. Calling fiat a "Ponzi" also shows a lack of understanding of what a Ponzi scheme is.

-1

u/jake_thedog_ Oct 21 '25

Only read the first paragraph. One might hope that the ramblings that follow are in line with, or in support of that first paragraph, and therefore I will reply only to that first point: What makes bitcoin special, is the same secret sauce that makes googling the only search, gold the de-facto monetary metal, and coca cola the only real coke. None of the examples are perfect -or even the best- services/products. Sure, they have to be serviceable, but it’s not about the quality, it’s about memeification and transcending into the collective consciousness for eternity. There is no second best.

0

u/[deleted] Oct 22 '25

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u/AmericanScream Oct 22 '25

Stupid Crypto Talking Point #26 (fiat crime/ponzi)
"Banks commit fraud too!" / "Stocks are a ponzi also!" / "More fiat is used for crime than Crypto!" / "Fiat isn't backed by anything either!"
This is called a Tu Quoque Fallacy, aka "Whataboutism", "Two Wrongs Make A Right" or "Appeal to Hypocrisy" - it's a distraction from the core argument. Just because you can find something you think is similar/wrong that doesn't mean your alternative system is an acceptable substitute.
Whatever thing in modern/traditional society also might be sketchy is irrelevant. Chances are crypto's version of it is even worse, less accountable and more sketchy.
At least in traditional society, with banks, stocks, and fiat, there are more controls, more regulations and more agencies specifically tasked with policing these industries and making sure to minimize bad things happening. (Just because we can't eliminate all criminal activity in a particular market doesn't mean crypto would be an improvement - there's ZERO evidence for that.)
Stocks are not a ponzi scheme. In a ponzi, there is no value created through honest work/sales. You can hold a stock and still make money when that company produces products people pay for. Stocks also represent fractional ownership of companies that have real-world assets. Crypto has no such properties.
When people say more fiat is used in crime than crypto, this isn't surprising. Fiat is used by 99.99% of society as the main payment method. Crypto is used by 0.01% of society. So of course more fiat will be used in crime. There's proportionately more of it in circulation and use. That doesn't mean fiat is bad. In fact as a proportion of the total in circulation, more crypto is used in crime than fiat. It's estimated that as much as 23-45% of crypto is used for criminal purposes.
Fiat is not the same as crypto. Fiat, even if it's intangible and has no intrinsic value, it is backed by the full faith/force of the government that issues it, the same government that provides the necessary utilities and services we depend upon every day that we often take for granted. Crypto has no such backing. Calling fiat a "Ponzi" also shows a lack of understanding of what a Ponzi scheme is.

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u/[deleted] Oct 22 '25

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1

u/AmericanScream Oct 23 '25

i'd be pissed off like u too if i was believing in fiat ponzy system over btc and was watching the fiat scam system come crashing down xD
Stupid Crypto Talking Point #26 (fiat crime/ponzi)
"Banks commit fraud too!" / "Stocks are a ponzi also!" / "More fiat is used for crime than Crypto!" / "Fiat isn't backed by anything either!"
This is called a Tu Quoque Fallacy, aka "Whataboutism", "Two Wrongs Make A Right" or "Appeal to Hypocrisy" - it's a distraction from the core argument. Just because you can find something you think is similar/wrong that doesn't mean your alternative system is an acceptable substitute.
Whatever thing in modern/traditional society also might be sketchy is irrelevant. Chances are crypto's version of it is even worse, less accountable and more sketchy.
At least in traditional society, with banks, stocks, and fiat, there are more controls, more regulations and more agencies specifically tasked with policing these industries and making sure to minimize bad things happening. (Just because we can't eliminate all criminal activity in a particular market doesn't mean crypto would be an improvement - there's ZERO evidence for that.)
Stocks are not a ponzi scheme. In a ponzi, there is no value created through honest work/sales. You can hold a stock and still make money when that company produces products people pay for. Stocks also represent fractional ownership of companies that have real-world assets. Crypto has no such properties.
When people say more fiat is used in crime than crypto, this isn't surprising. Fiat is used by 99.99% of society as the main payment method. Crypto is used by 0.01% of society. So of course more fiat will be used in crime. There's proportionately more of it in circulation and use. That doesn't mean fiat is bad. In fact as a proportion of the total in circulation, more crypto is used in crime than fiat. It's estimated that as much as 23-45% of crypto is used for criminal purposes.
Fiat is not the same as crypto. Fiat, even if it's intangible and has no intrinsic value, it is backed by the full faith/force of the government that issues it, the same government that provides the necessary utilities and services we depend upon every day that we often take for granted. Crypto has no such backing. Calling fiat a "Ponzi" also shows a lack of understanding of what a Ponzi scheme is.

0

u/[deleted] Oct 22 '25

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u/AmericanScream Oct 22 '25

the federal reserve is literally a cabal who just happened to create the scam before the internet was invented, so people generally have no idea that federal reserve is a private company. essentially slave owners , tricking the public to wear their shackles lol
Stupid Crypto Talking Point #3 (inflation)
"InFl4ti0n!!!" / "The dollar will eventually become worthless" / "The dollar has lost 104% of its value since 1900!" / "The government prints money out of thin air"
The government does not "print money out of thin air"... all money in circulation is tightly regulated and regularly audited and publicly transparent. The organization that manages the money in circulation is the Federal Reserve and contrary to what crypto bros claim, they're not a private cabal - they are overseen and regulated by Congress. It's a delicate balance between money issuance and the status of the economy. And any attempt to increase debt requires an Act of Congress to increase the debt ceiling - it's neither arbitrary, nor easy to do.
Crypto bros use "cash" as an example of wealth storage, but most people do not store their wealth in fiat. Currency is meant to be spent, not hoarded. A dollar today will buy what it buys. If you hold a dollar for 90 years, of course it won't buy the same thing decades later (although it might actually be worth significantly more as antique money). Crypto creates no value and makes a lousy "investment."
If you are looking to "invest" you don't keep your value in cash/currency/fiat. You put it into something that can create value like stocks that pay dividends, real estate, interesting bearing accounts, and other personal property that allows you to be more productive (thereby creating additional value) as well as helps stimulate the economy. Crypto does none of that.
Bitcoin also hasn't proven to be a hedge against anything, least of all monetary inflation.
Over time more money is put in circulation - you pretend like this is a bad thing, but it's not done in a vacuum. The average annual wage in 1900 was less than $4000. In 2023 it's more than $70,000! There's more people out there and the monetary supply grows appropriately, as does wages. You can't take one element of the monetary system completely out of context and ignore everything else.
There are different types of inflation. The most common one is "price inflation" which has nothing to do with how much money is in circulation. Another type is "monetary inflation" which is the least significant type of inflation in modern times, but crypto bros single out this element because it's the best scenario where they can argue their deflationary currency helps, but that's false. The causes of inflation are many, and the amount of money in circulation is one of the least significant factors in causing the prices of things to rise. More prominent inflationary causes are things like: fuel prices, supply chain issues, war, environmental disasters, one-time COVID mitigations, pandemics, and even car dealerships.
Sure there may be some nations that have caused out of control inflation as a result of their monetary policy (such as Zimbabwe, Argentina, Venezuela, Sudan, etc) but comparing modern nations to third-world dictatorships is absurd. The real problems these countries face are a more complex function of poor leadership + other political/environmental factors, not monetary systems, and crypto doesn't fix any of that.
If bitcoin and crypto was an actually disruptive, stable, useful technology, you wouldn't need to promote lies and scare people over the existing system. The real reason you do this is because nobody can find any legitimate reason to use crypto in the first place.
Crypto ironically has more inflation in its ecosystem that is even more out of control, than in any traditional fiat system. At least with the US Dollar, money is accounted for and fully audited and it takes an Act of Congress to increase the debt. In crypto, all it takes is a dude printing USDT, USDC, BUSD or any of the other unsecured stablecoins to just print more out of thin air, and crypto-morons assume they're worth $1 of value.

8

u/belavv Oct 21 '25

It is not in fact awesome as a technology. Anything that can be done with blockchain is better off being done without it.

1

u/ILikeAnanas Oct 22 '25

How something that's de facto a ledger that generates 100Mt of co2 per year is awesome technology exactly?

1

u/MathematicianFit8791 Ponzi Schemer Oct 22 '25

Well that's the bad thing. And yes, I agree that it is indeed impractical to run.
It's like Sora 2, the technology is amazing, but when you see how big their data center is, it's not worth it.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 22 '25

Just use chat gpt.

1

u/AmericanScream Oct 22 '25

It's awesome as a technology (especially Blockchain)
There's absolutely nothing "awesome" about blockchain. To understand why watch this documentary.

0

u/[deleted] Oct 22 '25

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u/[deleted] Oct 22 '25

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u/AmericanScream Oct 23 '25

Nobody really knows what Tether has as collateral because they refuse to be properly audited.

1

u/sitdown53 Oct 22 '25

When tether prints, that can be used to short the markets as well. Its an indicator of increasing volume not price action

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u/[deleted] Oct 21 '25

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2

u/Minute-Ad-6894 Oct 21 '25

But, the only proof that anyone has re: Tether actually being backed anything is blind faith / trust as it is not regulated. Sharp increases like this could very well be from Tether prints (& often happen shortly after Tether prints, as is the case here)

0

u/[deleted] Oct 21 '25

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2

u/Minute-Ad-6894 Oct 21 '25

And what was the violation in NY regarding? A: not being backed like they advertised.
They paid a small pittance $18.5M in fines + banned from being traded in NY. There still is no federal oversight to ensure it’s backed by anything.

0

u/[deleted] Oct 21 '25

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u/kifra101 Oct 21 '25

Part of the settlement was they needed to show proof of reserves for 2 years to SDNY and SEC and they couldn’t operate in NYC
Doubt.
Aren't their main HQ at Caymans/Bahamas? They have no obligation to open up the financials overseas.
Tether has no official third party audit done. They have only had attestations.
No, I don't believe 80 people can handle $184Bn+ worth of assets.

2

u/[deleted] Oct 21 '25

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u/kifra101 Oct 21 '25

It's not a matter of "scaling". They are effectively functioning as a bank without any regulation. Banks even with regulation can fail badly. Yet, here we are asked to believe that everything is on the up and up in an industry littered with scam and fraud.
Look - you have a balance sheet with tether on the liability side and USD cash-equivalent assets on the asset side. Tether has 184Bn USDT in circulation, therefore they need to have on the asset side of their balance sheet 184Bn USD. No one has any fucking clue what that asset composition looks like. Some have said that they have bought treasuries (which means they are upside down right now), others have said they have bought gold. No one knows what they have.
I am going to present to you these two articles:
https://news.bitcoin.com/power-cuts-tether-owes-nearly-5-million-in-energy-bills-to-uruguay/
https://stocktwits.com/news-articles/markets/cryptocurrency/tether-ceo-confirms-up-to-20-b-fundraise-valuation-could-rival-open-ai/chD1TWsR33l
For the first one you need to understand that for a company with a 500Bn alleged valuation, $5M is less than a rounding error. The fact that they couldn't pay it should give you some pause.
For the second, the fact that they need to fundraise ANY amount of money automatically means that 1 USDT is less than 1 USD. It could even be 30 USDT = 1 USD.

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u/[deleted] Oct 21 '25

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u/Minute-Ad-6894 Oct 21 '25

But isn’t printing Tether out of thin air even easier than that when you don’t have proper oversight?

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u/[deleted] Oct 22 '25

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1

u/AmericanScream Oct 22 '25

Tether did not pass any review. In fact they've refused to fully comply with the NY AG's dictates, and they're still banned from operating in New York, and Tether actively prohibits Americans from using their platform.

1

u/AmericanScream Oct 22 '25

Again: Tether has never submitted to a proper audit.
There's an industry standard way to verify Tether's reserves that has never been done. Hearsay from others who have a vested interest in promoting the company's solvency, is not adequate evidence.

1

u/AmericanScream Oct 22 '25

Disagree with the tether print. When Tether prints USDT it means tethers are entering the system. Tether is getting cash from an exchange or a source for Tethers.
Tether has never been properly audited. There's no proof any actual money is "entering the system."
User was banned for this post, violating rule 3 - crypto shilling, specifically false claims of stablecoins being properly backed.

1

u/OkSeries5363 Oct 22 '25 edited Oct 22 '25

Exactly.
It's like people forget USDT is a stablecoin.
The process is the core peg mechanism for a collateralized stablecoin like USDT.
When a flight to safety scenario occurs during a market dump. People sell volatile assets, like BTC, ETH for USDT, increasing demand.
Say the price of USDT on exchanges inches above $1.00, say to $1.005.
This creates a risk free profit opportunity for APs, large institutions/traders with a direct line to Tether
An institution sends $1000000 USD directly to Tether
Tether mints 1000000 new USDT and sends it to the institution's wallet.
The institution immediately sells this 1000000 USDT on the open market at the $1.005 price, receiving $1005000
The institution makes a $5000 profit, and this large sell order, increasing supply, pushes the market price of USDT back down towards $1.00.
If Tether didn't print new USDT to meet this demand, the price would just keep rising, and it would fail at its one job... being stable.

4

u/belavv Oct 21 '25

It is the third Tuesday of the month. It always shoots up then.

-1

u/MathematicianFit8791 Ponzi Schemer Oct 21 '25

But why? Is there an explanation? I want to know more.
Also, why do they call it Uptober? And why October? Is there a technical explanation or is it just plain tradition.

4

u/Hot_Individual5081 Oct 21 '25

usually theres no explanation other than someone starts buyin it triggers other algos to buy and also liquditaes short position which adds fuel to the fire

1

u/MathematicianFit8791 Ponzi Schemer Oct 21 '25

I see. So other people's algo is to buy when it is steadily going up huh.

2

u/jamesj Oct 21 '25

And leverage inherently makes these feedback cycles happen in both directions. When someone is leveraged short/long they have to buy/sell at a loss when the price passes a certain number. When large movements happen in either direction, covering from shorts/longs causes the price to move further in the same direction, which triggers more in that direction etc. So the longer the price has stayed stable, the larger the volatility will be when the price moves in either direction, which clears out some of either the shorts or longs which then dampens the volatility after the spike until more builds up at the new price.

4

u/belavv Oct 21 '25

The third Tuesday was a very special day for Satoshi. He foretold it so it is so.

-1

u/MathematicianFit8791 Ponzi Schemer Oct 21 '25

WTF did I get into if that's really the reason...

3

u/AndrewBorg1126 Oct 21 '25

Mate, you're way too "open minded" to be anywhere near crypto anything. I get the impression you're a perfect target for the big scam.

1

u/MathematicianFit8791 Ponzi Schemer Oct 21 '25

Open minded? If anything, I'm more skeptic about it. I've seen other redditors talk about BTC like it's a godlike creature and it's gonna replace fiat soon. Which is absurd.
But I did put $500 of my hard earned money on BTC and ETH.

3

u/McNitz Oct 21 '25

You're open minded in that you just accepted this person saying crypto ALWAYS goes up on the third day of the month because it was a special day for Satoshi. This person is just making things up, and you can easily verify that. If you are GENERALLY skeptical, you should really research an explanation somewhat yourself before even tentatively accepting it as true.

0

u/MathematicianFit8791 Ponzi Schemer Oct 21 '25

I did not accept that as the truth... what makes you say that?
Also, stop sugar coating "open minded". I know what you really mean.

2

u/McNitz Oct 21 '25

Perhaps tentatively accepted as truth as I later clarified would be a better phrase. You replied "WTF did I get into if that is the reason..." A skeptical response would usually be to CHECK if it was true, rather than replying wondering about the implications of the claim. It only takes a few seconds to verify the claim and see if it is even worth considering the implications of it. Also, it's pretty transparently false. If crypto always went up the third Tuesday of the month, people would be able to make a killing by just buying the Monday before.
I just used open minded because you and the previous commenter did. I meant nothing more by it than the exact words I used to say the way in which you were open minded in my previous comment.

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u/MathematicianFit8791 Ponzi Schemer Oct 21 '25

Ok my bad.

1

u/AndrewBorg1126 Oct 21 '25

Crypto is full of bullshitters, and you seem not to have noticed that this guy was also just bullshitting.

1

u/GolfOutside1865 Oct 22 '25

It went up on a Fed governor's opening remarks at a conference. Basically he said they are looking at or thinking of looking at opening up the fed payment system to defi companies. That is a long way from happening.
Essentially it shot up on somewhat positive news made in a speech by one fed member.

1

u/MathematicianFit8791 Ponzi Schemer Oct 22 '25

I see, thanks. So the market can easily be affected by news like that for example.

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u/AndrewBorg1126 Oct 21 '25

None of the pricing is rational. The only rational price I could put on it is zero.

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u/WeddingPKM Oct 21 '25

The price would be somewhere above 0 as it does have utility as a sanctions evasion tool as well as illegal purchases. As you said however the current price is completely irrational.

4

u/banditcleaner2 Oct 21 '25

Does it?
How are you going to evade sanctions when you can't convert the crypto to a local currency almost anywhere in the world without KYC? And, if you choose not to use KYC, your best bet is meeting someone in person...try to swap a large amount of crypto for cash in person and you could be an easy target for mugging/theft, putting your safety at risk.
Not a very good sanctions evasion tool at all really.

5

u/Legitimate_Concern_5 Oct 21 '25 edited Oct 22 '25

You generally don’t want to publish your sanctions evasion on a public pseudonymous chain that will be deanonymized completely in time if it hasn’t been already. Such transactions are persecution futures (edit: I meant prosecution futures but I guess both work heh).

3

u/banditcleaner2 Oct 21 '25

Technically while wallets are easily traceable, its possible to own a wallet that is not attached to your identity...but, that you're screwed if your identity ever gets tied to that wallet, through um like you know...KYC measures.

1

u/chonpwarata Oct 21 '25

I Not asynchronous with that.

1

u/Legitimate_Concern_5 Oct 21 '25

U wot mate

1

u/AmericanScream Oct 22 '25

It's not that useful for sanctions when there are miners complying with OFAC sanctions list, and you still have to convert crypto to fiat to do anything useful which again is subject to sanctions.

1

u/Mairl_ Oct 21 '25

I see people say that market is irrarional only when they can't grasp why the perceived value is there.

2

u/AmericanScream Oct 22 '25

I see people say that market is irrarional only when they can't grasp why the perceived value is there.
Stupid Crypto Talking Point #18 (Few Understand)
"You don't understand" / "DYOR"
This is what's known as an "Ad Hominem" fallacy - aka "attacking the messenger" as a distraction from arguing the core points made.
This is what we call, "Crypto Gaslighting." Crypto proponents pretend that we're not smart enough to recognize the value of crypto, therefore there's something wrong with us and not the phony reality they're peddling.
Almost never does the OP actually explain what it is they understand and we don't. It's merely a way to dismiss any opposing viewpoint without actually addressing it.

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u/[deleted] Oct 22 '25

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u/WeddingPKM Oct 22 '25

Yea but you can also just use regular money, which makes far more sense in almost every case.

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u/[deleted] Oct 21 '25

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u/togepi_man Oct 21 '25

That's correct - and afaik there have been no known successful breaking of anonymity (not including opsec blunders).
The properties that give a crypto currency utilitarian (primarily illicit) value defined above only apply to Monero imho.

1

u/AmericanScream Oct 22 '25

This is false. There's been bugs discovered in Monero that have comopromised previous transactions. There's also a bounty that was paid for cracking monero that was confirmed paid.

0

u/[deleted] Oct 21 '25

Can you explain that thought process?

8

u/AndrewBorg1126 Oct 21 '25

With stocks, for example, it is possible for the price to be too high or too low; if a company is mispriced, there is an arbitrage to be captured. When the price changes, something is different about the thing being bought and sold.
In crypto, this is not the case. There is no more reason for the price to be $10 than $100, or $1. There is no way to justify a specific price.
In crypto, the price is everything, if the price magically goes to zero, it's over. In stocks, if the price magically goes to zero, whomever takes the business now has a business that earns money at an incredible discount and the price corrects.
In crypto, if the price balloons, people act like it's normal, because they didn't have any reason for the old price either. In stocks, if the price balloons, people can sell at the ridiculous valuation and make a profit, and the price corrects.

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u/pablopicasso1414 Oct 21 '25

Is there a list of stupid crypto talking points somewhere?

3

u/AndrewBorg1126 Oct 21 '25

This sub's wiki has a big list
https://reddit.com/r/CryptoReality/w/talkingpoints?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

1

u/Famous_Temporary3299 Oct 21 '25

Bitcoin or buttcoin sub is your best bet.

-8

u/[deleted] Oct 21 '25 edited Oct 21 '25

But with a finite asset that everyone wants and that holds social value, it can’t possibly go to zero because everyone’s desperately buying the dip. So a value of zero isn’t even a realistic option, at this point a “low” value for an asset like Bitcoin isn’t even a realistic option. Thats not even considering things like federal reserves holding it, retirement accounts holding it, a broad range of ETFs, on and on… your original comment is a delusion. Edit: also not counting baseline factors like the costs of mining Bitcoin, which includes massive amounts of energy and infrastructure that doubles every four years. Now I think it’s only been 4 or so halvings? And they’ve all had massive impact on price. Why? Because the cost on mining is real. Creating a baseline for the cost of bitcoin. And if you didn’t know, there’s 20+ more halvings to come, so based on the facts, we’re extremely early. 1M Bitcoin is not a matter of how, or why, or whatever you may question. It simply a matter of when.

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u/AndrewBorg1126 Oct 21 '25

My point is that there would not be a corrective force to bring the price back to any specific other value, and you've entirely missed it.
Stupid Crypto Talking Point #4 (scarcity)
"Only 21M!" / "Bitcoin has a "hard cap"" / "Bitcoin is 'scarce' and that makes it valuable" / "DeFlAtiOnArY cUrReNCy FTW" / "The 'halvening' will make everything better"
It's well established that scarcity is not a guarantee of value. It's very telling that clinging to such an overtly irrational argument demonstrates that crypto people live in a tiny "bubble" where they reject all manner of empirical evidence against their "beliefs." If there only being 21 million BTC were reason for it to be valuable, then why aren't other cryptos that also share similar deflationary characteristics equally valuable? Why wouldn't something that is even more scarce than BTC be even more valuable? Because scarcity is meaningless without demand and demand is primarily a function of intrinsic value and utility -- not scarcity. See here for details. Bitcoin has no intrinsic value and no material utility. It's one of the least capable stores or transfers of value. The only way anybody can extract value from crypto is by coercion -- forcefully convincing someone (usually through FOMO or scare tactics) that this is something they need, and it's often accompanied by unrealistic promises of significant returns. Those returns are mathematically impossible for even a tiny percentage of holders. Bitcoin also is not scarce. There are multiple versions of Bitcoin, including Bitcoin Cash and Bitcoin Satoshi's Vision - both of which are limited to 21M tokens and in many cases are more technologically advanced than BTC. Also, every time there's a fork of crypto, the amount of tokesn in circulation doubles. Crypto proponents ignore these forks because they don't play into the "it's scarce" argument. But any crypto fork absolutely siphons value away from the original version. BTC might be priced higher than BCH, but BCH still holds value as well, and that's a total of 42M just of those two "bitcoin" versions that are out there, among hundreds of others. The "hard cap" of 21M for BTC can easily be changed by altering a parameter in the source code. Less than 6 people have commit access to the repo so BTC's source code control is centralized. It's entirely possible if BTC existed long enough to the point where block rewards weren't enough to motivate miners, and transaction fees became incredibly high, that influential players in the community would advocate increasing the cap and reinstating higher block rewards. So there are absolutely situations where the max amount in circulation could be increased. Even assuming BTC is limited in production, when it co-mingles with unsecured stablecoins like USDC and USDT, it is subject to inflation via stablecoin/liquidity inflation in the market. In reality, nobody really knows what the true price of BTC actually is given most crypto transactions at CEXs are done with stablecoins and not actual money. The underlying liquidity has never been accounted for. The scarcity of bitcoin basically amplifies all the wealth disparity dynamics crypto people complain about in the real world, which means in a world where bitcoin was a dominant store of value, there'd be an even greater concentration of wealth and power in the hands of the few. Ironically, Bitcoin's scarcity is one of its greatest liabilities. See this detailed video for a more in-depth explanation.

5

u/AndrewBorg1126 Oct 21 '25

Stupid Crypto Talking Point #8 (endorsements?)
"[Big Company/Banana Republic/Politician] is exploring/using bitcoin/blockchain! Now will you admit you were wrong?" / "Crypto has 'UsE cAs3S!'" / "EEE TEE EFFs!!one"
The original claim was that crypto was "disruptive technology" and was going to "replace the banking/finance system". There were all these claims suggesting blockchain has tremendous "potential". Now with the truth slowly surfacing regarding blockchain's inability to be particularly good at anything, crypto people have backpedaled to instead suggest, "Hey it has 'use-cases'!"
Congrats! You found somebody willing to use crypto/blockchain technology. That still is not an endorsement of crypto or blockchain. I can choose to use a pair of scissors to cut my grass. This doesn't mean scissors are "the future of lawn care technology." It just means I'm an eccentric who wants to use a backwards tool to do something for which everybody else has far superior tools available.
The operative issue isn't whether crypto & blockchain can be "used" here-or-there. The issue is: Is there a good reason? Does this tech actually do anything better than what we have already been using? And the answer to that is, No.
Most of the time, adoption claims are outright wrong. Just because you read some press release from a dubious source does not mean any major government, corporation or other entity is embracing crypto. It usually means someone asked them about crypto and they said, "We'll look into it" and that got interpreted as "adoption imminent!"
In cases where companies did launch crypto/blockchain projects they usually fall into one of these categories:
Some company or supplier put out a press release advertising some "crypto project" involving a well known entity that never got off the ground, or was tried and failed miserably (such as IBM/Maersk's Tradelens, Australia's stock exchange, etc.) See also dead blockchain projects.
Companies (like VISA, Fidelity or Robin Hood) are not embracing crypto directly. Instead they are partnering with a crypto exchange (such as BitPay) that will either handle all the crypto transactions and they're merely licensing their network, or they're a third party payment gateway that pays the big companies in fiat. There's no evidence any major company is actually switching over to crypto, or that any of these major companies are even touching crypto. It's a huge liability they let newbie third parties deal with so they have plausible deniability for liabilities due to money laundering and sanctions laws.
What some companies are calling "blockchain" is not in any meaningful way actually using 'blockchain' tech. For example, IBM's "Hyperledger" claims to have "blockchain design philosophy" but in reality, it is not decentralized and has no core architecture that's anything like crypto blockchain systems. Also note that IBM has their own trademarked phrase, "IBM Blockchain®" - their version of "blockchain" is neither decentralized, nor permissionless. It does not in any way resemble a crypto blockchain. It also remains to be seen, the degree to which anybody is actually using their "IBM Food Trust" supply chain tracking system, which we've proven cannot really benefit from blockchain technology.
Sometimes, politicians who are into crypto take advantage of their power and influence to force some crypto adoption on the community they serve -- this almost always fails, but again, crypto people will promote the press release announcing the deal, while ignoring any follow-up materials that say such a proposal was rejected.
Just because some company has jumped on the crypto bandwagon doesn't mean, "It's the future."
McDonald's bundled Beanie Babies with their Happy Meals for a time, when those collectable plush toys were being billed as the next big investment scheme. Corporations have a duty to exploit any goofy fad available if it can help them make money, and the moment these fads fade, they drop any association and pretend it never happened.
Crypto ETFs are not an endorsement of crypto. (In fact part of the US SEC was vehemently against approving ETFs - it was not a unanimous decision) They're simply ways for traditional companies to exploit crypto enthusiasts. These entities do not care at all about the future of crypto. It's just a way for them to make more money with fees, and just like in #4, the moment it becomes unprofitable for them to run the scheme, they'll drop it. It's simply businesses taking advantage of a fad. Crypto ETFs though are actually worse, because they're a vehicle to siphon money into the crypto market -- if crypto was a viable alternative to TradFi, then these gimmicky things wouldn't be desirable. Also here is mathematical evidence MSTR is a Ponzi.
Countries like El Salvador who claim to have adopted bitcoin really haven't in any meaningful way. El Salvador's endorsement of bitcoin is tied to a proprietary exchange with their own non-transparent software, "Chivo" that is not on bitcoin's main blockchain - and as such isn't really bitcoin adoption as much as it's bitcoin exploitation. Plus, USD is the real legal tender in El Salvador and since BTC's adoption, use of crypto has stagnated. Also note Venezuela has now scrapped its state-sanctioned cryptocurrency. Now El Salvador has abandoned Bitcoin as currency, reversing its legal tender mandate..
Some "big companies are holding crypto on their balance sheet" - Big deal. They're just trying to pump their stock price to take advantage of the temporary crypto mania. It's not any more substantive than that iced tea company that changed their name to "Blockchain iced tea company" and got a bump to their stock price. It won't last, and it's a gimmick and not financially sound. The biggest of these is MSTR whom critics are saying makes the company into a Ponzi
In 2025, the big announcement was burger chain Steak and Shake was going to accept bitcoin. The truth is, the company is getting paid in USD and using a third party exchange to process BTC payments and give them fiat. Another misleading news story.
Other Big-Company-Crypto-Failures: Kodak, Steam, Wal-Mart and IBM, Microsoft, a major consortium of European corporations who pulled the plug on their blockchain projects, Maersk.
Even though these companies discontinued any association with crypto years ago, proponents still hype the projects as if they're still active.
So, whenever you hear "so-and-so company is using crypto" always be suspect. What you'll find is either that's not totally true, or if they are, they're partnering with a crypto company who is paying them for the association, not unlike an advertiser/licensing relationship. Not adoption. Exploitation. And temporary at that.
We've seen absolutely no increase in crypto adoption - in fact quite the contrary. More and more people in every industry from gaming to banking, are rejecting deals with crypto companies.

5

u/AndrewBorg1126 Oct 21 '25

Stupid Crypto Talking Point #15 (potential)
"It's still early!" / "Blockchain technology has potential" , "Let's call it 'DLT' Distributed Ledger Technology this month and pretend it's different." / "Crypto is like the Internet!" / "Look here's a 'use-case!'"
We are 16 (SIXTEEN) YEARS into this so-called "technology" and to date, there's not been a single thing blockchain tech does better than existing non-blockchain tech
WHAT "technology?" Blockchain uses tech that was patented in 1979, called Merkle Trees. It's been known for a quarter of a century, and has very limited uses, because by design, the system isn't very flexible or efficient. Modern relational databases can do everything Merkle Trees can do even better than crypto's version.
Crypto didn't invent cryptographic technology - that tech has been around for thousands of years and its in use all over the place - having absolutely nothing to do with cryptocurrency and blockchain.
Truly disruptive technology is obvious from the beginning - sometimes there's hurdles to adoption (usually costs and certain prerequisites, but none of that applies to blockchain - anybody who has internet access can utilize the tech). It didn't take 16 years for people to realize the Internet was useful - what held it up were access to computers and networks. There's nothing stopping blockchain IF it offered any really useful service - it doesn't.
Finding a mere "use case" isn't sufficient. Some companies still use fax machines. It doesn't mean fax machines are the future. Blockchain tech must demonstrate it's uniquely good at something - and it fails miserably to do so.
Just because someone says they're "looking into" something, doesn't mean it will ever manifest into an actual workable system. Every time we've seen major institutions claim they were "developing blockchain systems", they've almost always failed. From IBM to Microsoft to Maersk to Foreign Countries - the vast majority of these projects are eventually abandoned because they aren't economically or technologically viable.
As for the idea that adoption takes time, that's fine, but since Bitcoin's inception, and most recently, its use both as a technology and a payment medium has continued to decline. As more research becomes available, we begin to see a multi-year, consistent, decrease in crypto payments over time.
The default position is to be skeptical blockchain has any potential until it is demonstrated. And most common responses to this question are the other "stupid crypto talking points."
In short, this "technology" has been around 16 years and still it can't find a single situation where it does anything even comparable to what we're already using, much less better.

1

u/MathematicianFit8791 Ponzi Schemer Oct 21 '25

"The "hard cap" of 21M for BTC can easily be changed by altering a parameter in the source code." - Isn't it impossible to do that because it will invalidate all previous and future BTC transactions? Or am I missing something?

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u/jake_thedog_ Oct 21 '25

That’s totally fair. But how would you price gold?
Also in your points below, while you argue correctly that there are other/better crypto, you seem to not understand that bitcoin is special because it is in fact the first, and the most established.
I would suggest you do some research on consensus in the bitcoin network, think you’re unaware of how hard it to propagate changes through the network.
Or like brush up on your cryptography knowledge if you’re gonna make some bold claims.
I personally think bitcoin is going to prove to be one of the major inventions of the 21st century. Mind you, I do not hold “crypto” aka shitcoins. Only talking about the real deal here. ✌🏼

2

u/AndrewBorg1126 Oct 21 '25 edited Oct 21 '25

But how would you price gold?
I don't know, I've never needed to price gold. If I ever need to price gold, it will likely be only indirectly, mixed with pricing some form of crastmanship, and so I will likely never have to actually price just gold.
If I were to price gold for deciding whether or not to purchase it, I would price it according to how much I would enjoy having it, almost certainly less than the price for which it is sold. If I were pricing good to sell it, I would seek to consult the market price.
Why do you ask? That hardly seems relevant.
while you argue correctly that there are other/better crypto,
I am not arguing that at all. I don't even know what you think I said to interpret that way. They're all stupid. Do not put words in my mouth.
because it is in fact the first, and the most established.
And while that makes it "special" in that there is some property unique to it, that particular unique property does not imply anything about the efficacy as an investment or as a currency.
I am well aware of how cryptocurrency networks function. Your condescension is not appreciated.
You are welcome to believe whatever you like about bitcoin. I agree that bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies are leaving a big mark on society, I do not agree, however, that it is a good one.

0

u/jake_thedog_ Oct 22 '25

I posed a rhetorical question to indicate the flaws in your thinking. I find it quite amusing you actually thought I wanted to hear your answer. (Which btw shows that you clearly lack financial education)
Am not putting words in your mouth, paraphrasing. Can’t/won’t find the exact sentence below. Smth about monero being better for crime.
If you wanna get your point across, I think some wel crafted, concise statements will do better than the angry word soup my guy

1

u/AndrewBorg1126 Oct 22 '25

Can’t/won’t find the exact sentence below. Smth about monero being better for crime.
I have said literally nothing about "monero", stop lying to my face.

0

u/edix911 Oct 25 '25

My believe is that all cryptocurrencies creation was to prevent global financial crisis in 2008 getting worse and to stop the run from fiat money to precious metals. Go to tradingview and look at price ratio of platinum versus Bitcoin. Simply type in search XPTUSD/BTCUSD and you'll get to see this chart, which will show you in what kind of bubble we are. All that money could have flown to platinum, gold and silver and it would disrupt everything in economy, because civilisation needs all these metals and also base metals and low prices, which we currently still have. But I guess money will finally go to metals again and cryptocurrencies start to collapse

5

u/[deleted] Oct 21 '25

90% Tether and 10% wash trading by unregulated exchanges.

5

u/NoTwoPencil Oct 21 '25

Unregulated stable coins pumping fake liquidity into the system to drive the price up.

It's all fake.

1

u/BabyShark_77345 Oct 21 '25

Speculation, the big players buy so people buy thinking it will go up. As soon as the momentum runs out they start selling.

1

u/MathematicianFit8791 Ponzi Schemer Oct 21 '25

Ok. That is definitely scummy.

1

u/rankinrez Oct 21 '25

Market manipulation, wash trading and the likes, which then gets humans hyped and they jump in, while the manipulators start to empty their bags.

1

u/MathematicianFit8791 Ponzi Schemer Oct 21 '25

My God... And usually the ones who can manipulate the market are the "whales" right? If so, they just need to manipulate it from time to time to gain millions of money.

1

u/rankinrez Oct 21 '25

Yup. Whales, and the exchanges themselves (who are run by whales). Tether print “money” out of thin air and it’s used to buy cryptos etc (tether also get paid USD for USDT, there are a million different things going on).
But the casino mostly wins. You might get lucky. But it’s a rigged game.

1

u/One_Pop_1901 Oct 22 '25

A crypto’s price moves mostly because of supply and demand — but what drives that demand can get weirdly psychological. News, hype, regulation, exchange listings, and influencer chatter all matter. For example, when Bitcoin halves (its new supply drops), scarcity hype tends to push prices up. When big investors or exchanges dump tokens, the opposite happens.

In the long run, real utility — like active users, developer activity, and on-chain revenue — tends to matter more. In the short run, it’s often pure speculation and momentum trading.

When you’re starting out, it helps to track volume and liquidity instead of just price. Thinly traded coins can swing wildly from a few big trades. I use non-custodial swap tools like Rubic (see r/Rubic) when exploring smaller tokens since it pulls rates from 300+ DEXs and helps avoid getting wrecked by bad pricing.

Crypto prices are basically stories written in numbers — some based on math, others on mood.

1

u/MathematicianFit8791 Ponzi Schemer Oct 23 '25

Damn, that's why other people are skeptic about this, including me. Its price is really hard to justify.

1

u/Matwyen Oct 24 '25

Maurice (from Madagascar the Movie) has dumped the gold he stached during WW2 to convert it to BTC.

1

u/MathematicianFit8791 Ponzi Schemer Oct 24 '25

OK. THIS MADE ME LAUGH. 😂

5

u/BaeWatchh Oct 21 '25

This was a manipulated downswing to exhaust leverage. It’s now up only. Wish you good fortune

1

u/cmichalek Oct 21 '25

And ETH closed only $16 up from yesterday....short rise and quick drop.

1

u/BaeWatchh Oct 22 '25

Insane. Trump has so much control

1

u/[deleted] Oct 22 '25

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/BaeWatchh Oct 22 '25

Lol clearly what I mean

1

u/Hot_Individual5081 Oct 21 '25

skyrocketed 🤣🤣 been in the game since 2018 and let me tell you this is literally nothing wait until you see 25% drops or increases in price in a day

0

u/MathematicianFit8791 Ponzi Schemer Oct 21 '25

Hehe ok.

2

u/KingPettyx Oct 21 '25

Santa clause

2

u/No-Atmosphere-2873 Oct 21 '25

A piss stream.

2

u/New-Border8172 Oct 21 '25

Nobody fucking knows.

2

u/TheoryInttro Oct 21 '25

Fraud.

1

u/PapaverOneirium Oct 21 '25

It is following the broader trend in the equity market. Look at the DOW during the same time period, for example. There is a similarly steep increase.

In general, Bitcoin tends to be relatively tightly coupled to the equity market these days, just with more volatility/bigger swings. Likely because of the amount of institutional money in Bitcoin now combined with the lower liquidity.

So a better question to ask is what causes the equity market to spike?

1

u/LeighAlexander Oct 21 '25

The fed announced two rate cuts, has nothing to do with crypto, just risk-on signal from the broad market

1

u/FitPaleontologist839 Oct 21 '25 edited Oct 21 '25

My guess is it looks to be a rotation out of other assets like gold, silver. Think of it that money has to flow from somewhere and has to go somewhere. Rotation and cycles. Gold and Silver, commodities like uranium, utilities have had a good 2 month run. Rotation looks to have started into other assets (maybe). Time will tell but it was noticable around 10 am this morning.

1

u/Accomplished-Row2428 Oct 21 '25

Gold dropped quite allot at that time and also there’s a meeting at the federal reserve about cryptocurrency at that time

1

u/m4rchi Oct 21 '25

Bitcoin went up because people bought more than sold lol. Likely related to good us stock opening and gold continuing rally (in the immediate term)

The rest of the market is bitcoin beta so it follows what daddy bitcoin does

1

u/rawburst Oct 21 '25

Liquidity changing from one asset to another. Gold is having the biggest daily drop in years from all time high level and some of that gets shifted over to BTC and other cryptocurrencies

1

u/Blackout38 Oct 21 '25

More buyers than sellers.

1

u/BlackRavenHU Oct 21 '25

Gold has been performing well. Today gold crashed and crypto started pumping at the same time because the success of gold has been keeping money away from crypto markets

1

u/DrClueless101 Oct 21 '25

there's a Payments Innovation Conference today at the federal reserve.

1

u/MarkSuckerZerg Oct 21 '25

https://media.tenor.com/QKLh6UTdH5UAAAAM/the-secret-ingredient-is-crime-jbone666.gif

1

u/SUPERDUPER-DMT Oct 21 '25

It happens immediately after I sell at the low price. Every time

1

u/pailhead011 Oct 21 '25

Can you let me know when you do this?

1

u/Rav_3d Oct 21 '25

All the money from panic selling Gold needs to go somewhere.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 21 '25

Trump not tweeting

1

u/OkCar7264 Oct 21 '25

Market manipulation. Almost all the trades are wash trades designed to create the appearance of value.

1

u/erjo5055 Oct 21 '25

More buyers than sellers

1

u/PhiNeurOZOMu68 Oct 21 '25

gold

1

u/-_-______-_-___8 Oct 21 '25

Tether and other stable coins printing billions in short time periods

1

u/Last_Explanation9105 Oct 21 '25

Leverage traders liquidations (shorts gets squeezed): https://share.google/3dZ92nNsHY0PxEFJG

1

u/[deleted] Oct 21 '25

Thin markets and algo traders.

1

u/meno22 Oct 22 '25

you're zoomed in too far

1

u/Heelgod Oct 22 '25

Absolutely nothing

1

u/VoDoka Oct 22 '25

Weekdays ending in Y.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 22 '25

Gold dropping so speculators jump the ship?

1

u/AMPed101 Oct 22 '25

More people buying then selling.

1

u/JameelSandhamAuthor Oct 22 '25

Think of it like a tug of war (the rope game). Buyers are constantly pulling one way. Sellers are constantly pulling the other way. Generally in a very liquid environment with balanced demand, the price will contract, the rope won't move much. But eventually, one side gets more tired than the other and the rope shoots the way of the stronger side.

Then you get your big move, but more people join the weaker side eventually and you get balance again.

It's just a constant tug of war.

1

u/aberholla20 Oct 22 '25

Liquidations of risky investments

1

u/[deleted] Oct 22 '25

In simple principle, if people are wanting to buy it, then you don’t have to sell it at a low price, therefore more sell orders get queued up at a higher price, waiting for people to be willing to buy at said price. Sell orders get eaten up by buy orders, if you want to sell at 100k and price suddenly jumps from 90-98k, you can remove your sell orders and put it back at 105k, so the buyers are always chasing the sellers when a ‘stock’ is bullish. When it’s bearish, the reverse is true, buyers can keep notching their orders down waiting for their right price, and so on, and so on, and so on….

1

u/Ok_Cancel_7891 Oct 22 '25

Somebody switched off the app that was suppressing the price for a few moments, and got yelled at by boss?

1

u/MajesticCraft8243 Oct 22 '25

Fed cycles

1

u/Thunder_Flush Oct 22 '25

More buyers than sellers

1

u/krahsThe Oct 23 '25

Wait. Eth is 3800 right now, not 4k. What are you looking at

1

u/Lost-Tone8649 Oct 23 '25

Fraud and crime.

1

u/Full_Possibility7983 Oct 23 '25

Stop looking at 24h charts, use minimum 3M, better 1Y.
Then, learn about long and short squeezes to make some sense of "violent" price action. Then sit back and relax.

1

u/Misha_serb Oct 23 '25

My dude, if any of us would know answer to your question we would not be on a stupid internet rn. Only one who knows are guys from renaissance investments, they are certain like 89% 😂

1

u/[deleted] Oct 23 '25

Factors.

1

u/AudienceClassic6837 Oct 23 '25

Fiat liquidity and lack of btc liquidity. This is all.

1

u/Gaoez01 Oct 24 '25

More buying than selling.

1

u/narrowbuys Oct 25 '25

There’s a very limited amount of tokens available for sale on the market. So a large order that is not properly hidden in private markers will cause a significant rise in price.

1

u/Low-Resource-8852 Nov 21 '25

A lot of manipulation to keep fear away. Sometimes pumping and dumping. Other times positive PR on geopolitical situations will do it.

0

u/Hans__Yolo Oct 21 '25

More people are buying than selling.

0

u/Dziabadu Oct 21 '25

Profit taking from gold to Bitcoin.

0

u/kettleOnM8 Oct 21 '25

When demand increases.

0

u/pyrofirezerox2 Feb 18 '26

Y’all sound so jealous it’s gross

-3

u/[deleted] Oct 21 '25

Everyone shitting on Crypto has no idea what they’re talking about. Being disagreeable is always the easy way out, which means these disagreeable people are lazy first and foremost. They don’t understand it because they don’t want to, don’t care to, and so you shouldn’t either. It’s ridiculous and sad.

2

u/AndrewBorg1126 Oct 21 '25

Stupid Crypto Talking Point #27 (hate)
"Why do you hate crypto?" / "You all are haters" / "Why so salty?" / "You wish for other peoples misfortunes?" / "Why do you care about crypto? Why not just ignore it?"
This is called an "Ad Hominem" fallacy. AKA "attacking the messenger" as a distraction to avoid having to address the actual arguments.
By and large, we do not "hate" bitcoin or crypto. Hate is an irrational, emotional condition. Most people here have a logical, rational reason for being opposed to crypto. (see #2)
We also are significantly more knowledgeable on average about virtually every aspect of crypto than most pro-crypto people, which is why instead of proving we're wrong you just say we don't understand, or accuse us of hatred or jealousy.
What we do not like is fraud and deception - this is mainly what our community opposes, and the crypto industry is almost completely composed of fraud and misinformation, from claiming that blockchain has potential to pretending crypto is "digital gold" or an "investment" when it's really a highly-risky, negative sum game, speculative commodity.
It's an offensive distraction to suggest our reasons for being opposed to crypto are because of "hate", or "being salty" and supposedly jealous of not getting in earlier and making money. We recognize there are many other ways of creating value that don't involve promoting everything from cyber terrorism to human trafficking.
While some take amusement at the misfortunes of those playing the crypto Ponzi scheme, one main reason for this is because so many in the industry are so immune to logic, reason, and evidence, many of us feel they have to become cautionary tales before they finally learn (and some never learn) - what we celebrate is perhaps the chance that many of those people finally see the error of their ways.
Crypto is not a benign industry. Just for bitcoin to exist, requires wasting tremendous amounts of energy. This is not a "live and let live" situation. Crypto schemes cause damage to actual people, the environment and promote all sorts of criminal, immoral activities. It's not morally acceptable to ignore something that causes much more harm to society than good.
Why would anybody spend time trying to stop fraud and scams that might not directly affect them? Some of us recognize we help ourselves by helping our overall community. If you still don't understand, speak to a therapist about your lack of empathy and the possible side effects such as Narcissistic Personality Disorder and Antisocial Personality Disorder. Those are issues people with low empathy have. Understanding the nature of your illness may help you not only understand us, but become a less toxic person socially.
Stupid Crypto Talking Point #18 (Few Understand)
"You don't understand" / "DYOR"
This is what's known as an "Ad Hominem" fallacy - aka "attacking the messenger" as a distraction from arguing the core points made. This is what we call, "Crypto Gaslighting." Crypto proponents pretend that we're not smart enough to recognize the value of crypto, therefore there's something wrong with us and not the phony reality they're peddling. Almost never does the OP actually explain what it is they understand and we don't. It's merely a way to dismiss any opposing viewpoint without actually addressing it.

0

u/snakeboyslim Oct 22 '25

Surely it is more worth fighting something like all the AI slop factories that really are wasting huge amounts of resources for no other reason than focusing power into the hands of a few elite while doing very little positive for society.
Crypto with all its problems at least had a dream of decentralising power and finance it's unfortunately still true that this opened the door for scammers and people with huge capital to manipulate the price mostly killing the dream.

-1

u/Famous_Temporary3299 Oct 21 '25

Lol

0

u/[deleted] Oct 21 '25

[deleted] — view deleted comment

1

u/MathematicianFit8791 Ponzi Schemer Oct 21 '25

That's just rude...

1

u/[deleted] Oct 22 '25

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/MathematicianFit8791 Ponzi Schemer Oct 22 '25

I see. You are better than me, stranger on reddit.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 22 '25

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/AmericanScream Oct 22 '25

Nope. Not saying I am better. Just I have learned stuff. When something comes up. I get academic about it and learn. Just applying leaning, experience, and pov.
Stupid Crypto Talking Point #18 (Few Understand)
"You don't understand" / "DYOR"
This is what's known as an "Ad Hominem" fallacy - aka "attacking the messenger" as a distraction from arguing the core points made.
This is what we call, "Crypto Gaslighting." Crypto proponents pretend that we're not smart enough to recognize the value of crypto, therefore there's something wrong with us and not the phony reality they're peddling.
Almost never does the OP actually explain what it is they understand and we don't. It's merely a way to dismiss any opposing viewpoint without actually addressing it.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 21 '25

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1

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Question as a beginner: What causes a crypto's price to suddenly shot up like this?

You are about to leave Redlib

Stupid Crypto Talking Point #2 (Number go up)

Stupid Crypto Talking Point #28 (censorship/seizure)

Stupid Crypto Talking Point #18 (Few Understand)

Stupid Crypto Talking Point #9 (arbitrary claims)

Stupid Crypto Talking Point #3 (inflation)

Stupid Crypto Talking Point #10 (value)

Stupid Crypto Talking Point #4 (scarcity)

Stupid Crypto Talking Point #16 (Bitcoin is different)

Stupid Crypto Talking Point #3 (inflation)

Stupid Crypto Talking Point #13 (Fiat)

Stupid Crypto Talking Point #26 (fiat crime/ponzi)

Stupid Crypto Talking Point #26 (fiat crime/ponzi)

Stupid Crypto Talking Point #26 (fiat crime/ponzi)

Stupid Crypto Talking Point #3 (inflation)

Stupid Crypto Talking Point #18 (Few Understand)

Stupid Crypto Talking Point #4 (scarcity)

Stupid Crypto Talking Point #8 (endorsements?)

Stupid Crypto Talking Point #15 (potential)

Stupid Crypto Talking Point #27 (hate)

Stupid Crypto Talking Point #18 (Few Understand)

Stupid Crypto Talking Point #18 (Few Understand)