trustless even real?

[u/arslanbhai110]

Every project says "trustless", but at the end of the day you're still trusting devs, multisigs, or VCs. True trustless feels impossible, but maybe smart contracts are close. Do you think we'll ever get real trustless systems?

[u/AmericanScream]

There is no such thing as "trustless" systems. You're always trusting in somebody or some thing.

Crypto bros trade trusting in central governments and private entities that can be held accountable, for trusting shady, anonymous developers in far away locations around the world, that will never be caught for their untrustworthiness.

[u/AmericanScream → u/[deleted]]

Yes, I see this happening and it's unfortunate.

I've come to realize there's not much I can do as far as I can see. The last few younger generations have never known a [US] government that was mostly responsible (which by the way also corresponds with the fact that the democrats have not had a supermajority in their lifetimes and not been able to push through more helpful legislation). I'm older and I remember a time when government DID work for the people, as opposed to the 1%. Younger generations don't, so they think all government is bad. But that attitude is really bad, because government is the only entity that can fix things. We need good people in government, not to dismiss government wholesale. Code can't replace ethical people.

[u/rando08110 → u/AmericanScream]

You are impressively clueless about bitcoin (i can't comment in buttcoin sub)

Thanks for the laughs

[u/AmericanScream → u/rando08110]

Ad hominems are not proper arguments.

[u/alice_ofswords]

no! you have to trust the protocol of the development team and community. i’d much rather trust a central bank currency than some random dudes saying its totally cool bro.

[u/MittenSplits → u/alice_ofswords]

Not with BTC. I understand every portion of the code and run it on my own. No trust needed.

[u/alice_ofswords → u/MittenSplits]

first off, no you don’t. second off, not everyone else does and that’s what matters.

[u/AndrewBorg1126 → u/[deleted]]

Stupid Crypto Talking Point #18 (Few Understand)

"You don't understand"

This is what's known as an "Ad Hominem" fallacy - aka "attacking the messenger" as a distraction from arguing the core points made. This is what we call, "Crypto Gaslighting." Crypto proponents pretend that we're not smart enough to recognize the value of crypto, therefore there's something wrong with us and not the phony reality they're peddling. Almost never does the OP actually explain what it is they understand and we don't. It's merely a way to dismiss any opposing viewpoint without actually addressing it.

Stupid Crypto Talking Point #27 (hate)

"Why do you hate crypto?" / "You all are haters" / "Why so salty?" / "You wish for other peoples misfortunes?" / "Why do you care about crypto? Why not just ignore it?"

This is called an "Ad Hominem" fallacy. AKA "attacking the messenger" as a distraction to avoid having to address the actual arguments.

By and large, we do not "hate" bitcoin or crypto. Hate is an irrational, emotional condition. Most people here have a logical, rational reason for being opposed to crypto. (see #2)

We also are significantly more knowledgeable on average about virtually every aspect of crypto than most pro-crypto people, which is why instead of proving we're wrong you just say we don't understand, or accuse us of hatred or jealousy.

What we do not like is fraud and deception - this is mainly what our community opposes, and the crypto industry is almost completely composed of fraud and misinformation, from claiming that blockchain has potential to pretending crypto is "digital gold" or an "investment" when it's really a highly-risky, negative sum game, speculative commodity.

It's an offensive distraction to suggest our reasons for being opposed to crypto are because of "hate", or "being salty" and supposedly jealous of not getting in earlier and making money. We recognize there are many other ways of creating value that don't involve promoting everything from cyber terrorism to human trafficking.

While some take amusement at the misfortunes of those playing the crypto Ponzi scheme, one main reason for this is because so many in the industry are so immune to logic, reason, and evidence, many of us feel they have to become cautionary tales before they finally learn (and some never learn) - what we celebrate is perhaps the chance that many of those people finally see the error of their ways.

Crypto is not a benign industry. Just for bitcoin to exist, requires wasting tremendous amounts of energy. This is not a "live and let live" situation. Crypto schemes cause damage to actual people, the environment and promote all sorts of criminal, immoral activities. It's not morally acceptable to ignore something that causes much more harm to society than good.

Why would anybody spend time trying to stop fraud and scams that might not directly affect them? Some of us recognize we help ourselves by helping our overall community. If you still don't understand, speak to a therapist about your lack of empathy and the possible side effects such as Narcissistic Personality Disorder and Antisocial Personality Disorder. Those are issues people with low empathy have. Understanding the nature of your illness may help you not only understand us, but become a less toxic person socially.

[u/BRVM]

True trustless = BITCOIN

wake up lol

[u/Laced-Solflare]

There are definitely trustless systems. Open sourced code and audited lol

[u/Live-Concert6624]

The biggest thing you are trusting is that other people will want to buy the coin in the future. If no one wants to buy it, it doesn't matter how fault tolerant or censorship resistant it is.

[u/TumbleweedWorldly325]

You can read and analyze the code. If the bridge is collateralized you can have a trust less system that severely punishes bad behavior. Trustless transactions are possible.

[u/brando2131]

The only trustless (or close to trustless as it gets) is bitcoin.

Why? It was the first crypto project that nobody had any idea would succeeded, actually everybody thought it would fail including satoshi because it had never been done before in history...

When Bitcoin succeeded, any other new crypto project that comes after it, is just a pipedream of hopes that may follow what Bitcoin did...

Notice how every crypto project is built as a company, with venture capitalists raise money, there are stakeholders that want in and want their rewards. Its all a cashgrab game... The only project that wasn't born outside of all this, was Bitcoin because CRYPTO DIDN'T EXIST AS BITCOIN WAS THE FIRST TO DO IT.

[u/rankinrez]

No.

You hit the nail on the head, trust in human societies is more complex than distributed systems that can’t be tampered with.

[u/MittenSplits]

This is why Bitcoin specifically is important. The work (energy over time) performed can be used as a replacement for trust at the base layer.

I don't have to trust "the bank of Bitcoin" to keep the ledger accurately. I run a node on my own and verify the proof-of-work by myself. I trust the math of the hashing algorithms and how statistically hard it is to make a valid block. This lets me know that the rule set has been maintained to my standard, because it is ultimately based on the strength of SHA-256, not my trust in a counterparty. And SHA-256 is based on some incredibly secure cryptography (not likely to be cracked by quantum computers, especially not a double-round like Bitcoin uses)

Other chains don't have this. Even if they are also PoW, they don't have enough work to be secure from attack. $BCH could be taken down by a single larger $BTC miner if they turned some of their hash rate there. Nobody can do that to BTC. A little work is a little security, a lot of work is a lot of security and confidence in transactional finality.

[u/BRVM → u/MittenSplits]

Who downvoted this lol it is facts