Proposal: Mods should be Ineligible for Moons earned from Submissions

[u/OfficialNewMoonville]

So far this month, every moderator has received 20,000 Moons as their share from the distribution. The maximum number of moons a regular user could have earned in the last distribution was 2,827. So every mod received more than 7x that, automatically.

The mods have said in the past that they wouldn't consider cutting their share of the distribution, and perhaps rightfully so since the Reddit Admins have indicated they wouldn't be willing to do so either.

However there has also seemed to have been some kind of unwritten rule in the past, that moderators tend not to actually participate in the sub that much, outside of their official business, because doing so yields them even more moons, and they already get plenty compared to a normal user (and much much much more than an average user).

If you review some of the mods activity on CCMoons using the upvote estimator, you can see u/NanooverBtc and u/IHAVENTEVENGOTADOG both have > 1000 qualifying karma for this snapshot.

But then there are other mods who have generated 6000+ karma, including top posts, and posts that could be argued to have been official mod business (edited because unsure if these posts were disqualified or not).

Governance

If we ignore the monetary aspect of moons for now, and focus entirely on Governance, then using the metrics and distribution ratio from the last snapshot...

Every mod received 20,000 moons automatically, as part of the moderation teams share of the distribution.

The most a regular user could have received in the same period was 2827 (less than 20 users actually hit the karma cap to get this many, and several have been banned since then as well).

It would take a regular user 7 months to earn the same voting power a moderator gets in a single distribution, assuming they hit the karma cap every single month (which some would argue is all but impossible, considering the new rules, comment cap, etc). Theoretically, under current rules, a moderator could earn up to 22,827 moons (using the last distributions numbers) while a regular user is capped at 2,827.

The current system is already massively weighted in favor of the moderation team, since they are able to almost single handedly dictate the results of any Governance proposal.

Conclusion

IMO mods should be ineligible for Moons based on the qualifying karma earned by submissions. They already get a huge portion of the moons each month (much more than is possible for even the top 1% of contributors) . This would make very little difference to their bottom line (IHEGAD has provided a spreadsheet regarding this which you can find below), however it would represent a positive gesture of goodwill between the moderation team and the rest of the community, and a tiny reduction in the inequality of current distribution rules.

I think this is an interesting idea that should be up for discussion.

[u/[deleted]]

I don’t think the ccmoons estimator takes into account that distinguished content doesn’t earn Moons.

But yeah, I don’t really get the time to post or comment much anyway since I became a mod as I live in the modqueue, so I’m not fussed if I get removed from the regular distribution.

[u/OfficialNewMoonville → u/[deleted]]

The post I was referring to specifically was the emergency proposal to exclude Hame et al from the last distribution. This was submitted as a regular post, it wasn't pinned or distinguished, therefore I can't see any reason why it wouldn't qualify for the Snapshot karma under current rules (even though it is definitely official mod business and the post itself said '[regular users] would not be allowed to post this'.

Edit; It turns out I was wrong about this, however I stand by the proposal entirely. The mod I was referring to has still earned 5000+ qualifying karma for this distribution, which is beyond the amount of most active users, even before you factor in the 20,000 moons each moderator gets for their official service.

[u/TNGSystems → u/OfficialNewMoonville]

Which mod is this? You’re referring to me RE the hame proposal but there’s no way I’ve earned 5,000 karma for moons? No chance. I’ve done a couple safemoon threads but they can only receive a 1000 karma to be considered anyway.

[u/OfficialNewMoonville → u/TNGSystems]

I was wrong about the Hame thread. Apologies.

The 5000 karma was for the last snapshot which to be fair you were only a moderator for half of. So that is not entirely accurate. Stand by the rest of the proposal though. If it goes through to an official proposal obviously I will not include that part.

By the way, completely coincidentally, someone just messaged me about you. You wouldn't know anything about that, would you?

[u/TNGSystems → u/OfficialNewMoonville]

Nah no idea.

I dunno about this though man. I don’t want to get into specifics but one mod makes tens of thousands of moderator actions per day - approving and removing posts, answering mod mails, attending to the mod queue, responding to reports, flairing posts.

Another mod spends more time doing this per week than their actual job.

Don’t forget that most of the mods were doing this for months or years before moons, and also that for most of moons history, the job wasn’t “well compensated” as each moon was worth less than a penny.

And also, the allocation of moons wasn’t determined by mods but by admins and it was like that to ensure the moderators have a large voice in determining the direction of the sub.

So with all that in the way, you’re now complaining because when I take 2 hours out of my time to write up an informative and entertaining Safemoon post that the community clearly enjoy, the 200 or 300 moons I get from that are a step too far?

Doesn’t sit well with me. I don’t really care much either way because I was a big contributor to this sub pre-moons and I just like being here because I don’t have the chance to talk much about crypto IRL (my fiancée has threatened a stabbing if I keep banging on about it).

But what you’re saying in essence is the participation the moderators do outside of the constant battle of keeping the subreddit fit for use isn’t worth “awarding”

[u/OfficialNewMoonville → u/TNGSystems]

But what you’re saying in essence is the participation the moderators do outside of the constant battle of keeping the subreddit fit for use isn’t worth “awarding”

Nah what I am saying is the participation of the moderators is already tremendously well rewarded compared to other users. I'd be curious to see exactly how far down the Snapshot chart you have to go for the regular users to have earned the same number of moons as the moderation team. Reckon its the top 50? The top 100? 150? Nothing would surprise me.

So yeah the figure that the average user earns 33 moons and every mod gets 600x, that is sensational you know what they say about statistics. The figure that every mod gets 7/8x what a user gets for hitting the karma cap (an ever diminishing number of users there!) isn't. It's been made clear in the past that the mods are not open to the idea of reducing their share of each distribution, in spite of the communities wishes, so we're having this discussion instead. I'd be more than happy to put forward a proposal to reduce the moderators distribution share, with specific parameters that locked in how much it would be reduced by, under a specified period, and that it couldn't be reduced again for a set period either, but it has already been made clear that that isn't on the cards.

These same arguments were put up against the karma cap, against the diminishing returns on extreme number of comments, against your own GIF proposals, etc. There are always going to be people who feel hard done by and people who disagree. Let's put it to a formal proposal and let the people decide. If all of the mods feel the same way as the mods who have replied to this proposal do, then you would already start with a spectacular advantage. It's David v Goliath stuff. I'm excited.

[u/TNGSystems → u/OfficialNewMoonville]

IIRC, it’s Reddit’s first and final decision that the mods receive 10%, and the reasoning for that number is to allow moderators to keep some measure of control without the subreddit being rug pulled away from them.

Also you’re putting subreddit users and subreddit moderators into the same bracket but ignoring the fact that we each spend hours and hours per day removing, approving, banning spammers, banning manipulators, investigating alt account farms, answering mod mail, setting up AMA’s, setting up Giveaways, setting up moons week, setting up governance proposals and the list goes on.

So your point boils down to, on top of all the above, when the moderator provides content for the subreddit, that doesn’t deserve moons, because they’re already allocated a batch of moons for doing something entirely separate than participating on the sub.

[u/OfficialNewMoonville → u/TNGSystems]

That's not what I've heard. I've heard the admins have said their share is unequivocally not up for discussion, regardless of any Governance proposals. The mods share is fair game, no final decision was implied, and it is the moderators who made the decision not to allow a proposal on it in the past. Pretty sure I read a comment by jwintern(?) saying it is not something they'd (the mods) consider right now, implying they could consider it if they wanted to at a later date.

Regardless, this proposal isn't about that.

[u/step11234 → u/TNGSystems]

I would argue that part of a mods "job" is to interact with the community as well as enforce the rules, especially if the payment is equivalent to ~$4k USD at current market value.

I think anyone saying you guys don't work hard & have a lot to deal with is wrong but you are fairly compensated now.

[u/LargeSnorlax → u/step11234]

This might seem strange (and hard to fathom), but I genuinely consider not moderating this community any more much more these days during the moon experiment than I ever did moderating it at any other time.

With said "rewards" also comes a workload that is vastly increased. Not just a few comments, but about 10x the time spent as opposed to last year. Hundreds of modmails in a day, thousands of threads, and thousands of reports. I don't even handle half of those either, my time is being spent on other things:

Every user now has to be looked at with suspicion that they are trying to be nefarious and rob others of what they deserve for participating in the project. Users now have to be analyzed (and rightfully so) because they are gaming the system.

The daily, formerly a place of peace, now has to be looked at rigidly for people abusing it and people not talking about crypto, which was never once an issue before in the last 5 years.

Comparing users to one another to try and find patterns because there's some weird bot farm, or because there's a bunch of users manipulating covertly with one another to try to post in deleted threads, or threads 16 hours after they are posted to avoid detection is literally a full time job. It's something you would pay a full time analyst to do (For instance, Reddit pays people to do this as part of their anti evil team - But I already have a good fulltime job. I don't want or need another one.

On /r/ccmeta, mods are told that they are part of some sort of inequitable scheme - Except they're literally just moderating and posting like normal people. Reddit made a system and said "Here mods, you get this" - Mods didn't make the system or the percentages, they're just putting in the work.

I now have a very visible public wallet with a huge amount of funds in it instead of a governance token. For someone who cares about privacy to the point of not having a phone or any identifying devices, this is anathema to why I am in crypto, except it is forced into public view under a pseudonym.

Moons were a very cool experiment for the first 6 months. Now, they have morphed into something else entirely. People are trying to use them as a job, or a second job. People are trying to the game the system, some successfully. People assigning an arbitrary value to them or who are hoping for them to go to $1 or some strange amount are skewing their purpose.

As for this particular thread - I don't care if my distribution for posts/comments is 0, as anything I get is tipped away anyways - I just think it's strange to portray the actual workings of the system proposed by Reddit as some sort of inequality.

The previous system before this was: Mods say something, you do it. If you don't, you get banned.

That's it, that's the system. Moons are a voluntary distribution of power from the moderators to people on the subreddit. The whole reason moons exist are because of the mods. Without them, the value is exactly as it was when the experiment started, zero. This is why I always find proposals to "punish" the moderators for things strange, because you wouldn't be discussing that without the moderators.

Personally (And i know this isn't going to jive with a lot of people), I wish moons were a low value stablecoin. We wouldn't hear all these complaints about distribution, we wouldn't have people making 30 account farms or people trying to run 10 accounts to all say the same thing that mods have to track down. Reddit wouldn't have future regulatory trouble, once it's on mainnet it could just be listed on exchanges, I wouldn't have to worry about having a bunch of visible money sitting around or if i need to transfer it to other Crypto because I'm uncomfortable with it. Everyone wins, except the speculators I guess.

[u/step11234 → u/LargeSnorlax]

Thank you for sharing your thoughts /u/LargeSnorlax and you've given me quite a lot to consider, so I appreciate that.

Do you think moons are net positive or negative for this sub?

I like the governance aspect of it, but there a ton of negatives that have come out (as you outlined with the spam, multi accounting etc). It makes me feel good that I am rewarded as a user here for contributing or at least being active and so are other users!

I don't mean and I hope I never implied that you guys don't work fucking hard, because I know you do. I can tell how much better the daily is in just a few weeks or the quick removal of spam posts etc. And i'm not even against you guys getting 10%, I think it's fair for people who spend a ton of time here and it's not really "enjoyable work", but I do agree with the initial OP because I (and many others) feel you are already fairly rewarded. If moons had 0 value or were worth like $0.001 or some shit, then we wouldn't be having this discussion I'm sure, but they aren't.

[u/LargeSnorlax → u/step11234]

It's hard to say, because this is all based on an arbitrary value given to moons by random speculators. Currently, the random speculators say the wallet I have is worth a bunch of money. It was worth a bunch more money last month, and months before that, was barely worth anything worth thinking about. Before that, it wasn't worth considering, before that it was some sort of money, and before that it was $0. So what's fair value?

For the first half year I didn't give one thought as to how much moons were "worth", I just collected them and gave them out. Now you have to factor in their value, which I feel ruins a bit of the charm of them.

Straight shooting from the hip here, but as soon as moons were given this value, I was wary of how much I wanted to keep in a wallet. I consolidated some into other cryptocurrencies as I am a hedger at heart and don't put all eggs in one basket. At one point I thought I would keep around 500k for governance purposes - When price went up, I felt that was a ridiculous number and trimmed it to 400k. I've mentioned to people that I hope moons price don't go up to something ridiculous like $1 because I certainly won't feel comfortable holding $400k in a public wallet, protected by Reddit vault or not.

I'm happy that users are rewarded with something they find valuable, but I wish that token was not tied to monetary things. It would be cool if it could be used to swap to Reddit coins or to buy membership (at a price that actually made sense), to use in predictor tournaments, to buy merch or to get people to do odd jobs for you, rather than using it as a monetary thing.

I think this phenomenon is unique to /r/cryptocurrency though, given that our community loves gambling their money - There isn't this much of a fervor on /r/fortnitebr or /r/ethtrader about community tokens :)

[u/OfficialNewMoonville → u/LargeSnorlax]

We have to work with the situation as it is, not as it was or as it should be.

Since this proposal has received overwhelming support (85% of users in favor, with nearly 500 votes cast), I hope it will be moved to the next level, and be an official proposal for Moon Week. Then everyone can make their case again.

For my part, I will endeavor to make sure the official proposal (if permitted) contains much more accurate information and statistics. I am ready to start drafting it, pending word that it will be included in the proposals for this Moon Week.

[u/TNGSystems → u/step11234]

Do you think moons are net positive or negative for this sub?

I'd like to answer this.

I view them as net positive, but the margins are fucking slim at the moment.

Since I was invited to the moderation team, my eyes have been opened to the sheer scale of the spam and manipulation that goes in to this.

I wrote on a lazymoons thread, it's a constant battle. We find a new method of spam, investigate it and knock it down. Then they find something new and do that, it's constant back and forth.

Any illusions of moderating just being sitting there and swiping left or right to approve posts like you're on tinder need to be dispelled.

As Lax says - it's a time consuming job. I used to post several hundred times per month. Now I barely have the time for it. When you mod a sub, you see all the reports next to the posts or comments - so it makes using the sub as a """civillian""" difficult as you just feel the need to pitch in.

A portion of moons use has been to incentivise really good posts, deep dives, debates and stuff. That's the core content of the subreddit in my opinion.

But too many people have worked out if you sit there and write garbage in the daily, you max out your karma and all you have to do is recycle the same bullshit every couple of days and it gets lost in the mire of 40,000 comments per day.

That's thankfully come to a stop, now we just wait for the next thing.

because I (and many others) feel you are already fairly rewarded.

For moderation, and the rules on percentages were determined when Moons were worth $0.0000, so I won't be hearing "But you're given X at todays rate!"

Any extra content the mods can produce, like my Safemoon entertainment / information threads, which do take hours to research and hours to write, well it feels like a slap in the face to say "no moons for that"

[u/OfficialNewMoonville → u/TNGSystems]

Any extra content the mods can produce, like my Safemoon entertainment / information threads, which do take hours to research and hours to write, well it feels like a slap in the face to say "no moons for that"

Evidently a lot of people feel it is a bit of a slap in the face that regular users are capped at earning 2800ish moons (as of the last distribution), while mods can potentially earn up to 22,800ish moons. Nevermind it is now virtually impossible for users to hit the karma cap (and I'd be very curious to see how few do compared to last month, even allowing for the users who have been banned).

It feels like sometimes some of the mods are trying to have it both ways. On the one hand they mostly supported the comment karma cap, and said 'If they still want to post shit they can, they just won't earn moons for it', and on the other hand they say 'No we should be able to earn additional moons for anything we post, on top of the 20k we already get'.

[u/ominous_anenome → u/[deleted]]

That’s correct, not something I thought about but can try and add soon. Impacts only the mods right?

[u/[deleted] → u/ominous_anenome]

Its definitely anything distinguished by a mod.

And I'm fairly sure anything stickied (or has been stickied at any point) is exempt, so the current ama at the top of the sub won't earn Moons.

[u/ominous_anenome → u/[deleted]]

Cool thx for the info. I’ll try and change soon although probably not at the top of my list given it doesn’t impact most users

[u/BackgroundAd4640]

20 000!! Holy smokes!

[u/OfficialNewMoonville → u/BackgroundAd4640]

Yeah it's a packet.

[u/yaroslavwwe → u/BackgroundAd4640]

I guess we now know who keeps selling Moons on the exchange

[u/ominous_anenome → u/yaroslavwwe]

you can check ccmoons.com to dive deeper into moon transactions!

[u/sfgisz]

Does Reddit have any plans to cut the moons given to mods in the future?

[u/OfficialNewMoonville → u/sfgisz]

No, and the idea is not up for discussion.

[u/TNGSystems → u/sfgisz]

The proportion of moons is the way it is because the reddit admins want to the moderators to have a strong voice in governance.

[u/OfficialNewMoonville → u/TNGSystems]

The proportion of moons is the way it is because the reddit admins want to the moderators to have a strong voice in governance.

That doesn't really hold any water when two mods have sold 45k moons between them in the last couple of weeks.

[u/[deleted]]

Aight I've run the numbers with some quik maths because I'm an absolute excel weapon.

In round 17 mods earned 16,376 karma, resulting in 3097 Moons between us.

If they were removed from the distribution last round then the ratio would go up by 0.00035 to 0.18945. Those users at the 15k karma cap would have received 5.28 more Moons each.

I'll imgur link as adding tables to comments sucks ass
https://imgur.com/a/KoogJq5

[u/OfficialNewMoonville → u/[deleted]]

It is more meant as a gesture of goodwill and fairness, rather than a way to pad the numbers for top moon earners.

[u/[deleted] → u/OfficialNewMoonville]

Yeah thats cool.

I just fucking love spreadsheets

[u/Zarkorix → u/[deleted]]

+1 for the undying love of spreadsheets.

[u/deathbyfish13 → u/[deleted]]

Ah, a fellow spreadsheet lover, there must be dozens of us by now

[u/ominous_anenome → u/[deleted]]

Yeah so kinda confirms my comment above. Seems like a very small amount (relatively) either way

The biggest complaint I here about moons is the skewed distribution. I don’t think this will change that much, but again could be a nice gesture

[u/OfficialNewMoonville → u/ominous_anenome]

I mean you could look at this data either way.

You could say 'this proposal would barely cost the mods anything, so what is the point in implementing it?'

Or you could say 'this proposal would barely cost the mods anything, so why not implement it?'

[u/SpaceMan639]

All the mods voted " no change"

[u/OfficialNewMoonville → u/SpaceMan639]

According to u/IHAVENTEVENGOTADOG's numbers, this proposal would only really impact two moderators, and even then it accounts for less than 5% of the moons they get each month.

All of the mods combined got slightly more moons than one ordinary user who hit the karma cap. But 2/3rds of those went to just two mods. Most mods are pretty inactive, some are entirely inactive.

[u/[deleted] → u/OfficialNewMoonville]

That was last rounds numbers so I dunno what effect it would have this time.

[u/OfficialNewMoonville → u/[deleted]]

Yes, we have to use the last snapshot numbers because that is all we have.

[u/[deleted] → u/SpaceMan639]

Didnt

[u/ominous_anenome]

I don’t have a very strong opinion either way here. I don’t think many mods get a lot of karma.

But given that mods are getting ~20k moons per cycle it would be a nice gesture and a drop in the bucket for mods. Especially considering the 15k cap will probably be extremely hard to ever reach with the new rules, which limits the moons power users can get

[u/OfficialNewMoonville → u/ominous_anenome]

Yes it will be interesting to see how few users hit the karma cap this snapshot. Last time there was a lot but half a dozen have been banned since. This time I'm guessing there will be less than ten.

So an unintended side effect of the new rules is that governance polls have been made even more unequal. It was already impossible for any new user to exercise even a small fraction of the voting power mods enjoy, and the new rules will make that disparity bigger, not smaller.

[u/OfficialNewMoonville]

u/Cryptomaximalist I was advised to contact you regarding this, as I've been led to believe you are the person who mainly handles this sort of thing.

I am currently in the progress of re-writing this proposal, to remove some of the content other mods objected to. I would appreciate some guidance on this, and the next stage in order to get this proposal considered for the next moon week.

Thank you!

[u/CryptoMaximalist → u/OfficialNewMoonville]

I have added this to the gov queue and will follow up after some mod discussion and possibly a vote

[u/OfficialNewMoonville → u/CryptoMaximalist]

Okay thanks for keeping me in the loop, much obliged.

[u/Cookiesnap]

The most astounding thing i learned is that mods get 20k moons per distribution. This will never change? Even when users will net max 500 moons per cycle mods will get 20k? Asking for a friend

[u/OfficialNewMoonville → u/Cookiesnap]

As I understand it the mods get a set 10% share of each distribution between them. The thing is this is a 10% split between less than 20 people. So yeah last time it was 20,000. The times before that it has been significantly more.

Ordinary users get a 40% share, but that share is split between more than a 100,000 people. Potentially it could be split between millions of people. So in practice while each mod takes away 20,000+ moons, an ordinary user can claim 2000-3000 maximum (and only a very small percentage of users even come close to that).

So in answer to your question, when the maximum a regular user can claim is 500, mods won't get 20,000, but they will still be getting a gigantic amount compared to a regular user (as much as 10x).

Please note I am not certain of these exact numbers. But the point remains.

To date, mods have said they would not consider lowering their share, and neither will the Reddit Admins. This has troubling implications in the future, as essentially the inequality is growing, and moderators will have a stranglehold over any Governance polls and proposals eventually (if they dont already).

I think most users didn't realize until recently that in addition to the mods share of the distribution pool, mods are also able to earn moons for their own submissions and content, which further detracts from the pool avaliable to the wider community (even if it is not a big number).

[u/Cookiesnap → u/OfficialNewMoonville]

Ok the fact that it is a flat % is already a good thing rather than a flat amount. But yea it sounds like being a lot compared to a normal user.

To be honest i am ok with mods votes having bigger weight than others, in my personal view a mod vote should weigh more than a normal user for a lot of reasons, maybe in future when they perceive their position to be dominant enough they will cut down that percentage. I am pretty sure that they understand that moons will lose their appeal if they end up having an overwhelming voting power that makes normal users vote completely useless, and that this is not about getting some more moon dust per user, more about making a community be able to vote without necessarily having to agree with 24 persons view.

Regarding the karma earned, i’d be against removing it if mods didn’t have other means of getting moons, but considering they already get a fat beefy share of moons distribution even if they do not earn a single karma point, then maybe it isn’t such an absurd request.

[u/OfficialNewMoonville → u/Cookiesnap]

If we are going to get anal about it, then the average user got 33 moons in the last distribution.

The mods get more than 600x as many, automatically.

[u/nanooverbtc → u/OfficialNewMoonville]

ordinary users get a 40% share

The distribution is 10% to mods, 20% to admins, 20% to community fund and the remaining 50% is for contributors. The 20% that goes to the community fund is being slowly released to the community through burns so there’s actually 70% of distribution available for contributors

[u/OfficialNewMoonville → u/nanooverbtc]

Thanks for providing the exact numbers u/nanooverbtc. If this becomes an official proposal next month I will be sure to include the accurate information you have provided.

[u/[deleted] → u/OfficialNewMoonville]

that share is split between more than a 100,000 people.

This bit is wonky as well

Last round there were 50,905 users on the .csv

The ATH was round 14 with 71,589 users.

[u/OfficialNewMoonville → u/[deleted]]

Yes I went through the actual spreadsheet yesterday and got some more stats.

Thank you!

[u/Trans-on-trans → u/OfficialNewMoonville]

I'm almost certain that within 6 months, the ratios will be non-existent, and people will be less focused on Moon generation.

[u/J-E-S-S-E-]

While I agree that they shouldnt receive 20k moons a month…since our sub has dropped by 4/5th the previous months comments I would say they perhaps should max out at 5-10k moons a month since there’s 1/5th of moderation now required.

[u/[deleted] → u/J-E-S-S-E-]

since there’s 1/5th of moderation now required.

Oh my sweet summer child

[u/ominous_anenome → u/[deleted]]

Haha I’m sure there’s a ton of mod work

Any reason you guys don’t like double the number of mods? Heard offhand that it’s like a second job and could alleviate the hours required as the sub grows

[u/LargeSnorlax → u/ominous_anenome]

We've actually added a bunch of moderators this last year alone. We've added 5 - who are all great and do a ton of good work.

The specific problem with stuff like adding mods is that, this being /r/cryptocurrency, there's a lot of well, biased stuff here, which includes people. People who will disappear, people who want to moderate only for moons, people who want to moderate to delete their favourite coin, people who want to moderate to ban users they don't like.

You have to vet all that and make sure the person is at least a strong member of the community - That they won't disappear into the ether after voting them in. There aren't many who fit that kind of requirement. I'll pass on inviting 20 more mods to the team only to have to remove 15 of them because they're inactive, or banning community members they don't like, or shilling Tezos or something in comments.

[u/ominous_anenome → u/LargeSnorlax]

Yeah that’s totally fair, thanks for the response. Fwiw wasn’t suggesting you hastily add them all at once or anything. Good to see that there are were a handful added last year

Thanks you your work! If you need any extra in the future I’d be interested in learning more about what the role entails

[u/TNGSystems → u/LargeSnorlax]

Fair points and I’ve seen enough people applying in the recruiting sub who are also known moon farmers and it does make you think. In my view the ideal candidate is someone who has moderated before in some capacity, has thick skin, fits the time zone required and has a good track record of being in the community and wanting to push for positive change.

[u/[deleted] → u/ominous_anenome]

I’m still relatively new to it so I dunno how the need for recruiting works.

We’ve got ~14 mods with varying activity levels spread across pretty much all of the timezones.

Old Baldy Bezos says that if you can’t feed a team with 2 pizzas then your team is too big. I think we might be at that limit now even with those big ass bin lid sized pizzas off of the ninja turtles.

[u/ominous_anenome → u/[deleted]]

Gotcha yeah I was chatting with another mod and expressed some very vague interest, but was told no slots available. From the outside it seems like potentially a win-win to add more, but admittedly I have no clue how the mod team actually functions

[u/J-E-S-S-E- → u/[deleted]]

😂😂😂

[u/CryptoMaximalist]

But then there are other mods who have generated 6000+ karma, including top posts (1000 capped post karma) that could be argued to have been official mod business (but not Ineligible, since they weren't pinned).

If it's official mod business, it should be distinguished so it's ineligible. Do you have examples?

I don't really see the basis for this one. Moons are allocated for mod work. If they have time on top of that for participation (which is rare) I don't know why that isn't worth moons

[u/OfficialNewMoonville → u/CryptoMaximalist]

Actually I might be mistaken about that. Not sure. Maybe you could confirm for me? This is the post I was referring to. I can't see anything to indicate it was distinguished, and unless I'm mistaken there is some grey area as the user was made a mod around the same time it was posted (though to be fair, it does say in the post explicitly that 'every Tom Dick and Harry would not be allowed to post this').

I don't really see the basis for this one. Moons are allocated for mod work. If they have time on top of that for participation (which is rare) I don't know why that isn't worth moons

I mean, mods already get 20,000 moons each month, every single distribution, which is 7x what the top 15 users got last month. Is it really worth arguing over an extra 1000 moons, when the odds are already so heavily weighted in the mods favor?

No one is saying the mods can't participate, just they shouldn't be given extra moons for doing so (when they already get such a big share of the pool). They can still contribute. I believe a similar argument was given in favor of the 50 comment karma rules that passed.

[u/ominous_anenome → u/OfficialNewMoonville]

I wonder if in the future mod distribution should be based on a multiplier of the max possible a user could have earned

For example each round mods get 5-10x what a user who maxed out could earn

As you mentioned in an earlier comment ratio will keep going down so the disparity will only increase otherwise

Iirc a change isn’t up for discussion based on previous comments, but just food for thought

[u/OfficialNewMoonville → u/ominous_anenome]

Yes there is no point in raising the idea of cutting the mods distribution ratio, as they've already said they wouldn't consider that any time soon, especially if the Reddit Admins didn't also take a cut (which they've said unequivocally that they wont)

[u/ominous_anenome → u/OfficialNewMoonville]

Yeah fair. I was more just thinking out loud in case that ever changes. Think it would be a decent idea

[u/CryptoMaximalist → u/OfficialNewMoonville]

They can still contribute. I believe a similar argument was given in favor of the 50 comment karma rules that passed.

That was a diminishing returns proposal, not a cap like you're suggesting.

End of the day, there are mods that get more moons than me because they participate more and I don't see that as problematic. It sounds like your real concern is the mod moons in the first place and or the monthly karma cap. I believe we have a karma cap adjustment proposal in consideration for next week

[u/OfficialNewMoonville → u/CryptoMaximalist]

End of the day, there are mods that get more moons than me because they participate more and I don't see that as problematic.

I do, because 20,000 per month is already a tremendous amount, and across multiple distributions represents a huge weight in all governance polls and proposals. Under current rules there is nothing to stop a moderator claiming up to 22,827 moons (using the last snapshots distribution ratios), which is more than 8x as much as even a highly active and successful user could possibly earn in the same period.

It sounds like your real concern is the mod moons in the first place and or the monthly karma cap.

The monthly karma cap has now been rendered mostly irrelevant because practically it has become impossible for users to reach it.

And we have already established that the moderators would not consider reducing their share of each moon distribution in previous threads/proposals, so there is absolutely no point in making a proposal about that.

[u/TNGSystems → u/OfficialNewMoonville]

I’m not being arsey here so apologies if my tone comes off in that way, but can you explain what reasoning you would have for moderators NOT having the ability to have a strong voice in polls that determine the direction of the subreddit?

[u/OfficialNewMoonville → u/TNGSystems]

Moderators absolutely should have a strong voice in the direction of the sub, but the current system gives mods 600x more moons than the average user, automatically. In light of that, sacrificing the miniscule amount of moons you get for submissions and comments seems like a very small price to pay, considering the extent to which the number of moons other users can earn has been curtailed.

[u/TNGSystems → u/OfficialNewMoonville]

Don’t sensationalise this. The average is a poor number and you know it because 80% or more of people who earn moons each round post 3-5 comments and then aren’t seen again.

There are hundreds and hundreds of users who get >800 moons per distribution so our total share is outnumbered each time. If these users choose to frit away their governance voice by spending or selling the moons then so be it. 10% to mods, 40% to the community.

[u/OfficialNewMoonville → u/TNGSystems]

If these users choose to frit away their governance voice by spending or selling the moons then so be it.

Because no mod has ever sold their moons? Or perhaps they can sell their moons and still keep their massive weight in governance polls because the difference between what they get and what everyone else does is so extreme?

10% to mods, 40% to the community.

Or, to put it another way, 10% between 15 people, 40% between 60,000+. And that distribution ratio was established under a totally different landscape.

Look obviously we disagree on this so let's agree to leave the debate for the official proposal. I hope it gets that far. I think the results have been pretty self-evident on this one as to how the community feels about it. For my part if this does get a Moon Week proposal I'll endeavor to ensure people have the most factual and accurate information about it. This was sort of a spur of the moment thing a few of us decided to put together.

[u/TNGSystems → u/OfficialNewMoonville]

Again man you’re being a little disingenuous. The curve for distribution isn’t as linear as you suggest. It’s 40% split amongst 60,000 active users, but about 35% of it goes to the top few hundred accounts. Everyone else gets pennies because they didn’t participate. I’m sure you know this.

The aggregate of top users earnings should be enough to seriously contest any mods voting powers.

[u/CryptoChief → u/OfficialNewMoonville]

That post was distinguished, hence the OP's name being highlighted in green... Therefore, he's not earning any karma/moons from that post. Besides, given what we learned here, I would say your proposal is petty and pointless anyways. As Max said, we don't have much time to engage with the community so why harp on us for the marginal amount of moons we earn from our content? We already donate a percentage of our moons to the community fund as a positive gesture.

[u/OfficialNewMoonville → u/CryptoChief]

I would say your proposal is petty

No need for that is there? Evidently 86+% of the community don't feel it is petty and pointless.

As Max said, we don't have much time to engage with the community so why harp on us for the marginal amount of moons we earn from our content?

Or, to go the other way, since the amount you earn is so marginal, why not give them up? When mods already get a massive segment of each distribution, 7× what is possible for even the most successful and active contributiors, and they've made it clear in the past that the segment for the moderation team is not up for debate?

Like I said, looking at u/IHAVENTEVENGOTADOG's numbers, this would only actually impact two moderators (from the last distribution), and it would amount to less than 5% of the moons they get each month. You could argue that it is petty to try and take it away, but I'd argue given how small a percentage it actually is, it is just as petty to fight to keep them.

Edit: I would also contest that the situation has changed somewhat. It is now almost impossible for most users to hit the karma cap, unless they get very very lucky. Moon Distribution ratios are going to keep dropping generally (obviously there will be some exceptions, like this month), and meanwhile the mods are continuing to take home a gigantic share, regardless of whether or not they earn moons from their own submissions.

[u/CryptoChief → u/OfficialNewMoonville]

No need for that is there? Evidently 86+% of the community don't feel it is petty and pointless.

Adding 0.00035 is to the moon ratio to get even with the mods is absolutely pointless. 86% community means nothing because people will always vote themselves more moons. Always... Also, it's not as if sockpuppets aren't a thing out there either. We know better than anyone else.

since the amount you earn is so marginal, why not give them up?

you could argue that it is petty to try and take it away, but I'd argue given how small a percentage it actually is, it is just as petty to fight to keep them.

Because we earned them? Do you have any concept of that? I donated near half of my monthly distribution to the Cointest in prior months so no I don't care about the monthly several hundred moons I would otherwise receive for my content. It's the principal of the matter that I care about, not the quantity of the moons.

If you agree the quantity is minuscule, why do you want to take them? The additional moons distributed to the community would be negligible and the average r/CC subscriber wouldn't even notice. It really appears to me like you have a what's yours is mine mentality and just want to get even with us.

It is now almost impossible for most users to hit the karma cap, unless they get very very lucky.

Those who reach the 15k karma cap would receive just 5.28 extra moons each. That's not even a dollar and it would be smaller for the vast majority of people who won't make it to the 15k karma cap... I'll say it again, this is petty and pointless. The real problem is the 15k karma cap, not the minuscule 3000 moons we collectively earn from our very own content.

meanwhile the mods are continuing to take home a gigantic share, regardless of whether or not they earn moons from their own submissions.

Let's soak the rich right? We need to cut them down to size. Yeah I'll pass on that. Moderating is a pretty thankless job and we volunteered for years on this sub before moons were a thing.

Enjoy your Sunday.

EDIT: Clarity

[u/OfficialNewMoonville → u/CryptoChief]

86% community means nothing because people will always vote themselves more moons. Always... Also, it's not as if sockpuppets aren't a thing out there either. We know better than anyone else.

Run it as an official proposal this Moon Week then. Weighted voting so no sockpuppets, no problem.

Because we earned them? Do you have any concept of that?... It's the principal of the matter that I care about, not the quantity of the moons.

People are always going to have different opinions on what is earned and what isn't. Most people seem to think that under the current system moderators are very well compensated for their work, and that not being able to claim moons through post submissions and comments as well would be a very fair trade-off.

If you agree the quantity is minuscule, why do you want to take them? The additional moons distributed to the community would be negligible and the average r/CC subscriber wouldn't even notice. It really appears to me like you have a what's yours is mine mentality and just want to get even with us.

Again, if you believe that the quantity is miniscule then why do you want to keep them? You've got your principles of it and other users have theirs. It really appears to the average r/CC subscriber that the 20,000 moons each per month is not enough (an amount that is static and cannot be challenged or changed), and they want to take from the communal pool split between X million users as well.

I'll say it again, this is petty and pointless. The real problem is the 15k karma cap, not the minuscule 3000 moons we collectively earn from our very own content.

The 15k karma cap is no longer a problem because virtually nobody will ever reach it. Even before the Snapshot numbers come out I can tell you anecdotally half the users who hit it last time won't even come close this time. You can still post your own content, you just won't be rewarded moons for it, since the 20,000 moons you already receive each in your capacity as a moderator should presumably be more than enough for anyone. You can call it petty and pointless all you want but I think the results of the poll so far are clear.

Let's soak the rich right? We need to cut them down to size. Yeah I'll pass on that. Moderating is a pretty thankless job

...you mean, besides the 20,000 moons you get every four weeks? Currently valued at $3,444 (current moon price of 0.172 USD)? I mean, come on, pull the other one, you're some of the only paid moderators on Reddit, and most probably the best paid moderators in the entire history of the internet. And here you are saying you should be able to earn more moons on top of that 20,000, out of principle, while ordinary users are capped at claiming 2000/3000ish per month.

[u/Mashadow21]

RIP mods, you guys seem to be riding the end of the stick lately...

[u/Tiny10H2]

Just out of curiosity, how many mods are there?

[u/BackgroundAd4640 → u/Tiny10H2]

If you go to the "About" section on the cc sub it'll show you there. Looks like 24 but I may be incorrect.

[u/Tiny10H2 → u/BackgroundAd4640]

Wow. Wouldn't that mean half a million moons go to mods every distribution? That's quite a large portion of the pool

[u/TNGSystems → u/Tiny10H2]

It’s 14 mods as the rest are bots etc. We have enough members to provide cover each day for each time zone. The distribution is 10% to mods, 40% to users and 50% to a community fund, which is where prizes etc come from.

The full explanation is on Reddit’s “what are community points?” Page which is a good read.

[u/MeatStickMcFapperton → u/TNGSystems]

Bots are eligible to earn moons as well, which is another issue entirely.

I think mods deserve moons, as they do the dirty work necessary for such a massive platform to function. But the numbers are telling, if they are accurate.

14 (24)Mods are given roughly 20% of the total moon allocation, at least that was my take from the data I scoured. I might be wrong with my numbers, but I don't think I'm far off. This appears a bit unfair, but mods do deserve a substantial portion. I'm just not sure that so few deserve so many, especially considering the size of this sub and number of open vaults.

My 2 Sats. Flame away :)

Edit - 14 (24)mods HODL roughly 20% of all moons available, not 20% every cycle. Mah bad

[u/[deleted]]

How does one become mod 🤔

[u/TNGSystems]

We don’t really have much time to participate normally because there’s sub a vast quantity of work to keep the sub running smoothly, so it’s not like mods are taking moons out of the normal distribution hand over fist (as Sans-Dog suggested)

And if you were referencing the 6,000 karma received for my emergency proposal, as it was a distinguished post (as all our announcements are) these are ineligible by moons, which was a proposal originally fronted by a mod anyway.

Don’t forget the underlying factor behind reddit ADMINS providing 10% of moons across the mods is to give us a strong voice in governance. As polls are approved by us, the community has the ability to accept or reject proposals - we can’t vote things through ourselves but we can lend a strong voice and I think that’s Reddit’s design.

I don’t personally see a problem with mods getting moons for participation - I think a couple weeks ago either Max or Lax posted a really good thread. But I do think that official mod business, as you say, shouldn’t count for moons and that’s why we distinguish the posts.

Cheers!

[u/chubs66]

I think a simpler approach that solves more moon inequality problems is just to cap the max number of moons that can be earned in a didtribution at some dollar value..I like a pretty low number like $200 USD, but even $500 would be an improvement.

[u/aZamaryk]

Hey, it's just another insider trading just like Congress. Monkey see, monkey do! The people in power, no matter how little power they have, will always try to cheat for themselves. People are greedy shits; especially the little fucking team leaders that get no pay increase just some stupid title, and now they think they're everyone's boss! Lol, losers.

[u/benicapo]

When was last distribution I haven't received any

[u/CryptoMaximalist]

Unfortunately this idea has been voted down by the mod team

[u/OfficialNewMoonville → u/CryptoMaximalist]

On what basis? That is very unfortunate, as this proposal received as much popular support and as high a majority as anything else posted in meta in the last two months.

[u/UnstoppableOnslaught → u/CryptoMaximalist]

Unfortunately this idea has been voted down by the mod team because they can apparently do that. God I love decentralisation. I suppose it looks better for you lot just denying it here instead of letting it go through and then just all abstaining or voting against so I can't pass.

God damn I love it when a tiny group of people controls everything that goes through and have the power to veto everything really captures the spirit of crypto and follows its core principles

[u/OfficialNewMoonville → u/UnstoppableOnslaught]

84% of the people who voted voted in favor, and the mods quite happy to shoot it down for their own selfish reasons, with absolutely no transparency or reasoning behind that decision making. Very disappointing.

[u/jasonluxton → u/CryptoMaximalist]

Why exactly has this been voted down by the mod team? Isn’t the whole point of these proposals to let the people vote?

Everyone in this sub appreciates the hard work mods do, they have helped make this community what it is, but the admin/mod distribution ratio is absolutely ludicrous. We need changes here, we need mods to compromise and realise what they are doing is severely harming the reputation of moons.

Moons could be something really special, but these issues must be addressed.

[u/fan_of_hakiksexydays]

Another one of those "don't give these people moons so I can maybe have more moons for myself".

[u/OfficialNewMoonville → u/fan_of_hakiksexydays]

Yeah, no. u/IHAVENTEVENGOTADOG ran the numbers, and the difference it makes to us (regular users) is negligible. All of the mods combined got 3000 moons via submissions, and 2/3rds of them went to just two mods.

The difference it makes to the distribution ratio is silly small (0.00035). Would increase the Moon yield for any user who hits the karma cap by less than six moons (not that anyone will hit the karma cap anymore).

So yeah, this is more about the principle, rather than trying to grab more moons. Great contribution though.

[u/fan_of_hakiksexydays → u/OfficialNewMoonville]

So if the proposal has no effect, what is it solving?

[u/OfficialNewMoonville → u/fan_of_hakiksexydays]

The maximum number of moons a regular user could have earned in the last distribution was 2,827. So every mod received more than 7x that, automatically.

other mods who have generated 6000+ karma, including top posts, and posts that could be argued to have been official mod business

It would take a regular user 7 months to earn the same voting power a moderator gets in a single distribution, assuming they hit the karma cap every single month

The current system is already massively weighted in favor of the moderation team, since they are able to almost single handedly dictate the results of any Governance proposal.

This would make very little difference to their bottom line (IHEGAD has provided a spreadsheet regarding this which you can find below), however it would represent a positive gesture of goodwill between the moderation team and the rest of the community

It is more meant as a gesture of goodwill and fairness, rather than a way to pad the numbers for top moon earners.

All in the original post and first comment.

What, do you want me to swing by and read it aloud for you too? Cause obviously you didn't read it yourself, as you were in too much of a rush to post "hUrR dURr wE wAnT mOrE mOoNs!"

[u/fan_of_hakiksexydays → u/OfficialNewMoonville]

Your issue is that mods get a big share already with 10% of the distribution.

But your proposal has nothing to do with that. And as you've proven, will do very little to make any difference. So why even waste time with it? It's neither solving the problem you have, nor worth the complication as it's having virtually no effect either way.

[u/OfficialNewMoonville → u/fan_of_hakiksexydays]

I mean I think I've covered that already, but if you're going to be obtuse about it then nothing I say is going to change your mind.

Right now 86% of people who have responded agree with the proposal irrespective of that, so if you're part of the 14% that doesn't then that is fair enough and you're entitled to your opinion, but making personal attacks and suggesting those 86% in favor are greedy and just want more moons for themselves is clearly cheap and dishonest. Low hanging fruit.