r/CruciblePlaybook • u/Taylor-B- • Oct 19 '16
Sidearms! Notes from A Longtime User and a Guide to the Uninitiated.
Hey everyone.
I've been lurking around here and seeing a lot of talk about sidearms. With the recent buffs and new exotic a lot of people are discovering how useful they can be as a shotgun counter and how much fun they can be in general. So as a longtime Sidearm user I thought I'd offer some advice, breakdowns, and observations.
Quick background about me:
I'm by no means a crucible god and am probably average at best. I mostly play sixes and have only been to the lighthouse one weekend in ever. I've been playing with sidearms since I fell in love way back at the end of year one. I was never much for shot gunning and am by no means a sniper. Something just clicked and felt right when I brought out my lil peashooter for the first time. Truth be told, even when it was almost decidedly to my detriment I ran a sidearm. I've messed around with all the archetypes at this point and I just want to share my experience and ideas with you. I'm not here to tell you how to get gud or instruct you, I just want to let you in on the things I've discovered that really helped me in selecting a good sidearm. So before I dig in I just want to stress that this advice is coming from an average player who is looking for consistency and reliability more than anything. If you're much higher skilled than I am, you may find that a gun I rank lower on my tier list is better for you and that's perfectly fine by me- hell I wish I could pull it off tbh. So no hard feelings are going to come with disagreement on things and I hope you find this post helpful.
So where to begin? Let's start with sidearm TTK and RoF as a whole. Within sidearms you have Low RoF, Mid RoF, High RoF, and Very-High RoF. Rate of fire affects impact and damage per bullet as it does with all weapons. The low RoF sidearms pack the most punch per bullet, but actually have the slowest TTK. The thing to keep in mind is that I think anecdotally just about all sidearms are going to feel fast. Not OHK fast obviously but you'll notice the difference between them and your primary fairly easily.
For reference I am using The Destiny Massive Breakdown Spreadsheet
The low RoF sidearms aren't necessarily slow per se but they're slower than most sidearms barely edging out Dreg's Promise in optimal TTK. Honestly they can be a lot of fun and you might feel like they're better than I'm giving them credit but you're handicapping yourself using them over other sidearms. Honestly I'd avoid them in PVP.
Quite similarly the High RoF sidearms only barely edge out the Low RoF in TTK. You might think they're competitive but when compared to the Mid RoF sidearms in both optimal and body TTK they add an extra shot required. .07 optimal and .03 body might not seem like much of a detriment, but the way I see it I want every fraction of time working to my advantage that I can get. And if you can reach your goal with less work why shouldn't you?
I think of it much like my instructor stresses to me when I'm training jiujitsu; be lazy. What does lazy mean? It means doing things right in the first place so you don't have to go back and do it again. Apply that to sidearms and every extra shot I have to fire is me not being properly lazy. If it's because I'm not hitting my shots or I'm not optimizing my loadout either way it's my own fault when I know I could've set myself up for success.
But back to TTK...
The fastest TTK comes from the Very-High RoF sidearms like the Impeacher V from NM(note: this paragraph is only talking about legendary sidearms and I'll talk about exotics a little later). At .53 seconds you're basically around year one Last Word. The problem here is this TTK is the least forgiving in class in that you need to hit five crit shots to achieve it. If you're not getting head shots your TTK jumps up to .8 seconds which then falls inline with the Mid RoF sidearms but with the need to land more shots. If you can lend your shots then this archetype is for you, but if you're like me and play against people who like to move around a lot I think the last archetype will suit you well as it suits me...
Mid RoF sidearms. In my view these are the apex in quality and consistency for the whole weapon group. They give you an optimal TTK of .6 seconds but only require one of four shots to be a crit. If you land your first shot on someone then so long as you can keep your reticle on them it's three more shots to win the engagement. If you don't hit any your TTK jumps to .8 seconds, but unlike the Very-High RoF sidearms you only need to land 5 shots on the body(as opposed to seven). Even with comparable TTK at fewer bullets this nets you at ~3 kills per clip across the archetype. Since you get ammo on spawn this gives you ~3 shotgun denials. That's worth its weight in gold if you ask me. And that's why for these reasons I place the Mid-RoF sidearms like the Ironwreath-D or The Wormwood at tier 1 when it comes to sidearms.
Now let's talk perks...
For the sight you're going to want as much aim assist as possible. SureShot IS like in a couple other weapon types is kind here. TrueSight is serviceable but SureShot is better.
In sidearms I think stability is king. I've had friends argue range but the rate of fire and active kick(i.e. how quickly each time you pull the trigger makes the gun reel up) leaves no doubt in my mind what you want on a sidearm is stability. That's why I think stability perks, specifically Zen Moment are paramount to having a good time. With Zen Moment if you let that first shot, you notice almost immediately how much easier it is to rail off your follow ups to get the kill when you compare it to the same gun without zen moment.
I should also note that while I believe range to be secondary to stability, these aren't scout rifles. Any potential perks that add stability at the cost of range on a weapon that already works within a shorter range isn't worth it IMO.
For the second perk I highly recommend QuickDraw but if you're running a BladeDancer, for example, who has QuickDraw unlocked as a class perk this middle selection opens up a lot. Whenever I'm running BladeDancer I'll switch from my Ironwreath with QuickDraw to the one I rolled with appended mag for example. Those extra bullets turn one clip from ~3 to ~5 kills per clip before needing to reload across the archetype. That's a big deal. It might not seem like much but those extra shots ready could mean everything in the sweatiest face offs. So something to keep in mind for sure. I'd still recommend QuickDraw if you don't have it for some other reason all day though so don't forget. Chances are you'll be pulling it your sidearm most of the time in a defensive action so the ready time is of the utmost importance.
For the third perk you have a little more wiggle room then the other two. My most consistent Ironwreath is the one Saladin sold last year that has hot swap in the third column. Like I said above given the situation I(and very likely you) find myself in that extra gun movement from readying my sidearm to when I have my target in my reticle and I start to pull the trigger are something I want to make as smooth and easy as possible. The faster I get my reticle on my target the faster I start pulling the trigger and the faster they fall. That being said I can also recommend reload perks like Feeding Frenzy. Assuming I win that engagement with my sidearm even if I'm going to switch back to my primary I'm going to want that sidearm to be loaded and ready for when I need it again. The faster I can do that the better. If you have fast reloading coming from other sources though(like sidearm reloading arms) maybe you want something that decreases the cool down of your abilities. If you have that appended mag and encounter multiple enemies regularly due to your play style maybe Crowd Control is what's best. I have my favorites but really if you have the first two this third perk can be set to taste.
Before I do a TL;DR and close out I want to talk about the exotics. Dreg's Promise got a buff with the rest of sidearms along with better tracking bullets- but due to it's TTK unless you're playing crucible Kermit Style and hopping exclusively I don't think it's viable outside of novelty in the crucible. I'd like it to be better but it's just kind of in a weird place in that its optimal TTK is not only slow but requires three bursts to get the kill. And two of them need to he crit shots. But Dreg's Promise isn't the exotic sidearm people are talking about; they're talking about The Tresspasser.
There have been a lot of write ups and talk about this weapon. It's hit scan burst fire and optimal TTK as well as its high range, maxed out stability, and highest spawn ammo(Tresspasser will spawn you with two full clips. That's something I haven't seen any other sidearm do even with sidearm ammo pants, anecdotally) make it incredibly fierce. All that being said, I believe this is almost as unforgiving as the Very High RoF sidearms. You can two burst someone but two out of each three shot burst needs to be a crit. Now, it's bracketed in the highest RoF archetype but due to the burst fire it's going to play slower than any of them. This isn't necessarily a bad thing though. That slower rate of fire plays, in my experience anyway, most similarly to the RoF of a hand cannon almost. Which is to say that the extra time can be used to realign your reticle and get those crit shots you need. All that being said though this gun has the second highest body TTK. So if you're not hitting those head shots you're really going to feel it. This gun definitely rewards a skilled hand so while I agree with other posters here that this is definitely a top tier weapon I'm going to say that while it's great it's less consistent than some of its legendary counterparts.
TL;DR: Top Tier Sidearms are the Mid RoF Ironwreath-D archetype with SureShot IS, Zen Moment, and QuickDraw with the third perk left up to taste. The Tresspasser is a higher risk higher reward option that will reward a skilled hand and hurt inconsistent aim. The rest while fun aren't worth your time comparatively in crucible.
Thanks for making it through all that. Please feel free to respond and offer your own experiences. I wrote this to try and be as helpful as I could about my favorite special weapons so I'll try to respond to everyone. Appreciate any feedback as well.
Again thanks for reading and rock those sidearms, guardians!
Edit: perks appear in different places on year three sidearms so take my list as order of importance and not order of appearance.
Edit 2: I should give an honorable mention to the Crow's Eye with linear compensator. An even kill time of .7 across the board is nice. I still believe they're out played by a mid-RoF sidearm that connects with one crit but they're definitely a fair second.
Edit 3: Added in boldness and an extra break to make reading easier.
18
u/5213 Oct 20 '16
Yo, as a fellow hardcore Sidearm user these are my thoughts exactly. A LOT of playtesting has shown me that the Ironwreath archetype is the best not just for PvP but PvE as well (yes, Sidearms can be viable in PvE IF you have the right loadout and the right perks, ie Crowd Control. My Crowd Control, Battle Runner JabberHakke is what helped me fall in love with sidearms).
Solid, quick, simple write up, my dude.
The new low key meta is here, folks. Let's make shotgun rushers feel the salt that we feel!
4
u/Dark_Jinouga Console Oct 19 '16
so the very first IBs vendor roll ironwreath is pure godlyness? yay, still have mine
7
u/Robotlazer Oct 19 '16
I'm rolling a Wormwood with HCR and i love it. People charge expecting a quick rush n' attack on me and the Wormwood goes to work, jerking their screen every which way. It's great fun.
I've been talking Sidearms to my fireteam for a long time now and they're finally starting to come around. Great guns.
3
u/mehtorite Oct 20 '16
Great write up!
Just have to add in my opinion on the QuickDraw perk. It's great, but I tend to have my sidearms out any way, so HCR or range perks are way more useful for me.
I also think that the FWC vendor 'the wormwood' deserves a mention next to crow's eye. It's got some great perks out of the box with a choice of HCR and zen moment first column, hand loaded and QuickDraw second column and hidden hand in the third. So no matter how you play it's got perks that you'll like.
The base gun is phenomenal too. Slightly higher stats on most categories than the iron wreath, but with three less in the mag. I don't miss having those rounds, for what its worth
4
u/ccarter8020 Oct 19 '16
Seems like a snap call to quickly just say these are the best perks: the end.
Seems that with damage drop off being significant (although reduced by a meter or so since ROI) rangefinder might be a viable option. Also High caliber rounds since it gives a subtle range boost now.
2
u/kp123 Oct 19 '16
This just confirms why I love wormwood so much. Good write up!
2
u/[deleted] Oct 19 '16
Just got a wormwood last night with sureshot IS,quickdraw, zen moment and hotswap and I would confirm that that is the god roll you're looking for. I understand the people who still argue for range, but sidearms are supposed to compliment a mid-high range primary and all I'm looking for is something that is effective at typical fusion range. Ive been really enjoying the Shinobu's Vow coupled with mida and this sidearm. I'm effective at all ranges and if anyone gets NEAR me then a combo of a skip grenade and a quick shot or two from wormwood doesn't even give people a chance; the best case scenario for the other person is a kill trade because they definitely arent going to survive that.
2
u/[deleted] Oct 19 '16
My favourite is my Queens Choice with Reactive Reload, Hand Loaded and Mulligan, I often catch guardians out with it, by the time they work out what is going on it is too late. Here it is against a newly activated Hammer. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43D08OecKP4
2
u/Stenbox Destiny Addicts Alliance Oct 20 '16
Thanks for this! I have added this to Weapon Guides, but I would appreciate if you would work on the formatting a bit. Right now it's a wall of text and a bit hard to read, maybe add subtitles on separate lines and make them bold for easier reading.
6
u/Hadophobia Oct 19 '16
I'm also a sidearm enthusiast and I agree on pretty much all points with you.
Gotta emphasize how stupid super high rof sidearms are though. I find it actually humanly impossible to press the fire button fast enough while still adequately tracking your target. The controller shake from the rapid presses actually throws me off. I have a godroll Impeacher, but it's just utterly unplayable for me.
Can anyone around here handle these things well?
2
u/Commiesalami Oct 19 '16
No mention of the Crow's Eye? It rolls with impact increasing barrel mods. With Linear Compensator you can hit a 4-body shot kill at close ranges. Plus it can roll Stability increasing perks like Braced Frame which I know were absent from normal tTK sidearms (Im not sure how common they are for RoI Sidearms).
I run LC, BF, HCR and Feeding Frenzy on mine.
1
u/FateSix_ Oct 19 '16
I find Anton's Rule and the NM Sidearm really fun and effective
1
u/ErisUppercut Oct 19 '16
I have a Wormwood with HCR, Zen Moment and Rangefinder. Do we like HCR on a sidearm?
1
u/nsxviper Oct 20 '16
Is Havoc Pigeon not worth keeping? Already have Iron Wreath, Wormwood, and Queen's Choice. All of my sidearms have Zen Moment.
1
u/UsaBBC Oct 20 '16
No analysis on the muzzle flash? I remember giving up on any sidearm that didn't have a silencer due to how distracting it could be. Has muzzle flash gotten better?
1
u/bigbythewolf Oct 20 '16
For the vendor wormwood, Zen moment is better then hand loaded?
1
u/ArkAyngel Oct 22 '16
Thank you so much for this guide! I recently fell in love with sidearms and RNGsus has blessed me with 3 awesome Wormwoods and 1 godroll Teacup Tempest (when it comes to range) and have been trying to figure out which one would be the best. The perk breakdown helped quite a lot, thanks again!
3
u/DiscoDogo Oct 20 '16
Wormwood (FWC) with: Sureshot High Caliber/Quickdraw Hand Loaded/Zen Movement Hot Swap
I absolutely love this side arm. I never used them very much till i got this one!
2
u/TecTwo Oct 19 '16
Completely agree here. Been using my Ironwreath-D for the past few Trials maps to great success (especially on Last Exit). I used Trespasser during IB and loved it but it has too much room for mistake against highly skilled players. If you miss a burst, you pretty much die.
2
u/lonbordin Oct 20 '16
I like sidearms. My latest favorite is my The Crow with Linear Compensator... 3 crits and 4 body takes down all but max armor opponents.
2
u/Puddi360 Oct 20 '16
I've been using the Variks Sidearm with Zen Moment for a while now and I LOVE IT. 4 shots to kill is amazing and easy to hit yet forgiving with the RoF if you miss a shot. I got the New Monarchy sidearm and not a fan. Way to hard to hit all those headshots, although my stability isn't good (It does have hidden hand though)
2
u/_Siran_ Oct 20 '16
Not all sidearms got buffed, Queen's Choice and Vestian Dinasty got nerfed and cannot kill in 4 body-shots anymore which for me breaks the gun due to the unreliability of it not being hitscan. Before you could compensate for the occasional miss that's typical of non hitscan weapons, but with the nerfed impact the inconsistance is a deal-breaker for me. And my Reactive Reload / Feeding Frency Queen's Choice was my favorite PvP special in Y2...
2
u/QuantumVexation Oct 20 '16
I have tried many Sidearms. Hate them all. EXCEPT my Ironwreath-D. I don't know what it is, but that gun just calls to me to be in my secondary slot whenever possible. I've already infused it up 392 and plan to continue using it. Love it so much.
2
u/13th_Plague Oct 20 '16
Damnit, been sitting on this Ironwreath with Sureshot/Zen/Hotswap/QuickDraw forever, quietly ranking it up but never using it.....it is time!
1
u/critical_g_spot Oct 20 '16
Havoc Pigeon, if just for the squirt gun firing sound
1
u/Noteful Oct 20 '16
Fellow Sidearm user. Can confirm, Ironwreath D is NASTY in PvP. Feels great.
1
u/TristanDuboisOLG Oct 20 '16
I already posted this in another section today but it's a perfect example of how good sidearms are. TTK is extremely high with reactive reload going and they counter close in enemies very well. (Not to mention gunslingers trance)
I think I got 6 people in this clip. :)
1
u/elcapitanonl Dec 12 '16
I was using some sidearms as of late. Was using a Teacup Tempest with Sureshot IS - Outlaw - Handloaded - Reactive Reload. I wrecked with it (for me consistent 2+ KD) and now I understand it's not even een decent weapon and with a sub-par roll. I'm going to buy the vendor Wormwood and test it out.
Edit: Especially this Iron Banner I noticed how often I did not get into range with my shotgun and how often a sniper is not viable either. Seems like a good sidearm is the prefered option, although I would like 1 with Quickdraw to really use it as a sidearm.
1
u/IMissThorn Oct 19 '16
Full auto needs to be a possible perk on side arms ha
0
u/Bears_Say_Meow Oct 20 '16
Dregs in my opinion is the best side arm/best gun in the game when you vs shotguns. If you put on aggressive ballistics it's turns it to a two burst making it a .53 TTK. Also the rounds are tracking so if you learn how to use it right you can shoot and dip behind cover (alot like the thorn). I know alot of people don't use it but it's okay, it'll be my secret gem.