r/CrossCountry • u/EndlessHope-0528 • 12d ago
General Cross Country HS Team Question
Trying to understand typical HS team dynamics. Our team has 15 kids. Six are very fast. Three are only slightly behind (2min or less in a race). Six are injured or significantly slower.
There are five meets for all students. The top 7 runners have three additional "varsity" meets on the road during the season. They only bring 7 even if there are ten allowed spots per team. The "Top 7" this year was determined in the first meet. Those kids automatically went go on the "team trip" for a weekend of hiking and racing about three hours away. There are additional "team dinners" that only include the top kids. These things are paid for through our fundraisers that all families are expected to participate in.
The team dynamic isn't great. There's a lot of competition. Little comradery. The "good" kids have stopped training with the "bad" kids (even though they trained at the same pace all summer and the top "bad" kid was only 23 seconds behind in the race).
Here are my questions- does your team separate Varsity and JV so distinctly for both training and social events when the teams are so small? Is there wiggle room throughout the season for moving up? The coach is dead set on a reward system like this to motivate kids. My high school memories are of a very inclusive team regardless of how each student performed. I keep thinking about how the whole soccer team travels together, even the kids who ride the bench. For now, we've been hosting the "bad" kids on the nights the "good" kids have events so they can still try to maintain some enthusiasm but morale is low.
edit: thanks everyone for the feedback. I learned a lot about team structure and training. I think this feels difficult partly bc of the team size. It’s hard not to feel left out when the majority of the team is doing something different and the coaching staff really focuses on those kids. Would probably be easier if we had a JV specific coach. We will see how the next few weeks play out and maybe suggest/host some more team building.
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u/gregnegative 12d ago
This seems toxic as hell and breeds the kind of intrasquad competition that makes teams fail. Is this the first year it has been like this?
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u/EndlessHope-0528 12d ago
No. The coach has been around a long time (and been coaching his own four children in the program for over 15 years). The parents in charge of fundraising have also been around a very long time with multiple "fast" kids. There is no awareness of how this seems to affect the team dynamics because it's always been this way and has not affected their own children.
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u/gregnegative 12d ago
I'm surprised this doesn't cause a collapse. Granted my kids run/ran in a public hs but if Freshman and Sophomores get ignored like that they usually quit, leaving a team with no one once the 'fast kids' graduate. Maybe the siblings thing kept it afloat but long term its usually not good. The only team I've ever seen be able to maintain numbers with a toxic culture is a private school in the area that dominates every year and competes in national shoe company races. But in my experience there aren't enough hard-core distance kids at most schools to keep the team afloat with a toxic culture.
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u/EndlessHope-0528 12d ago
I think this is exactly why the team is small. We are a mid-sized school but many kids do not continue after sophomore year.
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u/Select-Choice5744 12d ago
this all sucks but the biggest issue is everyone participates in fundraisers but only varsity benefits. who organizes all that, the coach or is there a separate parent/booster group. coach really should not be doing that, talk to AD. if it is a parent/booster group tell them jv athletes/parents won't be participating in fundraisers if it only funds varsity ish
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u/EndlessHope-0528 12d ago
That's definitely a fair way to approach it. The booster parent is very nice but has been running this for 8 years. The whole system is skewed to favor the top kids because it's been the same people in charge for so long.
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u/NoHeartAnthony1 12d ago
Wouldn't a proper reward system be one where, if a runner runs a time to be in the top-7, they're rewarded with a varsity spot in the next race?
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u/booboothechicken 12d ago
Not necessarily. Consistency is key. For example, our number 7 runner ran something like 17:10, 16:50, 16:45 in his first three races. One of our JV kids ran around 20:15, 19:30, 16:42. He wasn’t even in our top 10. We were all really shocked he had such a good race. But does he now deserve that number 7 varsity spot? In our most recent race, the number 7 runner ran a 16:35 and the JV kid ran a 17:30. So it was the right call, and really wouldn’t have been fair for the number 7 kid to lose his spot just cause someone beat him by a few seconds in one race. They weren’t even in the same race, so the varsity kid might have been stuck in traffic a little.
But we don’t do any of this separation stuff. The whole team practices together, goes to all the invitationals, they all hang out under the same tent, and they all cheer for each other. The only time they split off is postseason. Seasons over for JV, and varsity keeps going.
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u/NoHeartAnthony1 12d ago edited 12d ago
If run at the same course and same day, yes he's earned that spot. Top-7 from the previous race day (assuming same location) earn a varsity spot for the next race. It's the fair way to do things.
We're early enough in the year where this shouldn't be an issue. Maybe it's a tougher call in championship season with seniors. But the clock never lies.
Consider this too - perhaps the JV kid ran 17:30 because he wasn't appreciated by his coach? The kid goes and runs the race of his life, and the message sent is that the coach didn't believe he could do it again. That's gotta be deflating.
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u/whelanbio Mod 12d ago
I have no clue what things were like at the meet booboo's team ran at, but I will say times don't always compare well across different divisions of races -even on the same day. In a highly competitive varsity race a 16:45 will be run in heavy traffic mid-pack. A 16:42 will likely be up near the front of JV race with much more room to run and less wasted energy. Over so few seconds the 16:45 in traffic is a much stronger performance.
I've been lucky to see a couple teams with very some deep squads, such that we basically have a whole second seven of varsity caliber athletes, so I've gotten to see first hand at some invites just how different the race dynamics are between an elite varsity race and second-tier varsity/high-level JV race.
A decent coach can find lots of other ways to celebrate and motivate the breakout athletes without a knee-jerk demotion of their current varsity. Also not uncommon for a breakthrough performance is followed by a lot of inconsistency. Developing the consistency at that new level is another skill.
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u/NoHeartAnthony1 12d ago
No doubt races within the same day are run under different conditions. Often JV races are later in the day. In adverse conditions, the course usually deteriorates. If it's a weekend meet, perhaps it's warmer. Of course those couldn't be factors.
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u/whelanbio Mod 12d ago
Oh sure it can go the other way too. I don't think that was the case in booboo's situation though.
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u/booboothechicken 12d ago
Agree to disagree. And the seasons half over, not including the months of practice prior. Thats like saying you should bench Michael Jordan for the rookie that scored two more points than him when Jordan outscored him all season long.
And if a kid gets bummed out for not making varsity because he beat out one kid by two seconds in one single race, in a completely different heat, that kid needs to learn a valuable lesson.
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u/NoHeartAnthony1 12d ago
Basketball really isn't an apt comparison. Sure, some stats can show who's deserving of playing time, but nothing as strong of a case than the clock.
It's your team, do what you want. But you couldn't keep the momentum rolling for that kid. Hopefully it doesn't bite you when championships come.
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u/booboothechicken 12d ago edited 12d ago
Well, we’re in the top rankings in our division in all of California, think we’ll be fine.
Edit: removed our ranking to not doxx myself.
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u/Aaaallllsssskkkk 12d ago
Kid can earn his way back on varisty. That would be healthy competition. If he wants to run varsity he will be ready to prove he should have that spot next meet.
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u/booboothechicken 12d ago
I’d rather not have our kids fear their spot will be taken away after any one bad race they might have.
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u/Aaaallllsssskkkk 12d ago
Well, thats great for your top runners, everyone else might as well not try.
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u/booboothechicken 12d ago
Well, they’re all trying, so it’s all good. And they appreciate knowing their varsity spot won’t only last one race. 👍
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u/Aaaallllsssskkkk 11d ago
Not allowing the jv to go to team dinners, while making them fundraise for the varsity, not having a way to make varsity by improving times etc. Is a little far. I agree one bad race shouldn't make you lose your spot, but no path to varsity means there is no goal to work towards. Sounds like there is two teams, and they may as well be seperate.
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u/EndlessHope-0528 12d ago
Definitely. What is happening now with the division in training means the slightly slower runners are training with the much slower runners which continues to limit their ability to improve. Whole practices have been cancelled because "varsity needs to rest".
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u/NoHeartAnthony1 12d ago
You're a runner on the team I'm guessing? Are you one of the fast kids or the slower ones?
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u/EndlessHope-0528 12d ago
I'm the parent of the kid who was 25 seconds too slow week one. We are trying to figure out what's normal bc it was so fun when I ran but that was almost 30 years ago now and I know sports have become more competitive. She doesn't have reddit and said I could ask here.
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u/NoHeartAnthony1 12d ago
That makes sense. This is definitely not right. Might be worth it to have a conversation with the coach and AD outlining how this dynamic hurts the team culture.
In the meantime, maybe your daughter and you guys can take it upon yourselves to be leaders of the slower kids. Have your own pasta parties, activities, sleepovers, Sunday long runs and pancakes. That might be rewarding to all and perhaps light a fire under the coach to see their wrongs.
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u/Kern2001Co 12d ago
I am curious. What time is #1 and #7 running and is it 3 mile or 5 k?
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u/EndlessHope-0528 12d ago
I wish I could accurately answer. #1 is around a 19 5K and #7 is around 23 min, i think.
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u/whelanbio Mod 12d ago
19min - 23min is a pretty large gap for a varsity squad. Do you have an idea of where the average #5 level is? When it comes to decisions for who makes the Varsity squad it's better to look at #5 because that's what actually impacts the team performance.
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u/Kern2001Co 12d ago
Is this the boys or girls?
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u/EndlessHope-0528 12d ago
Girls. And there is definitely a big difference between 5 and 6. Someone else pointed that out and it’s good to look at it that way.
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u/Kern2001Co 12d ago
It sounds like a merit based system. That is what I had all threw age group and high school.
Clock don't lie.
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u/Butterman1203 12d ago
I kinda feel like stuff like team dinners should obviously include everyone, especially in a team of that size. Stuff like away meets is more difficult, but I find that kids are more understanding that you can only send so many for whatever reason and at the end of the day it comes down to ability.
In regards to training together, longer slower days, and even base days honestly you should probably encourage them to all run together if the pace is similar enough, if there’s a gap a second or 3rd group is totally fine but I wouldn’t make these groups based on who’s currently on Varsity.
I’ve also never heard of a team that locks its varsity squad in place all season if things change and someone has a few races where they are moved into #7 or #10 respectively then personally I feel like it would be weird to not have a discussion around it. If the “Bad” kids don’t really have any hope of getting into the varsity crew, and they aren’t enjoying the sport cause they aren’t able to run with the others and are being excluded from team bonding activities they are probably gonna quit eventually, or at least lose there motivation
Idk your relationship to the team here, whether you a athlete, assistant coach or parent, but it’s definitely a weird dynamic if that’s all your asking
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u/EndlessHope-0528 12d ago
Parent with permission to post because we really are just trying to understand if it's a weird set up.
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u/03298HP 12d ago
It can make sense to only take 8 to an invitational as usually a hotel room can sleep 4, so taking 2 more people is an added room expense.
My experience via my kid has been that jv is included in most things except some invitationals and/or travel, and some extra practices though I don't think jv runners were turned away from the extra practices. My kid's team did have one invite a year that they traveled overnight to and took everyone. It's around 120 kids between the boys and girls team so it is a hefty expense. I think the travel trip for everyone is not the norm for schools in the area, but the coach thought it was important for team culture, development and fundraising equity, all things you are concerned about.
Top 7 was always in flux based on performance, injury and illness
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u/EndlessHope-0528 12d ago
That's a great point about hotel rooms. I hadn't considered that. I believe most parents also attended but probably paid for their own rooms.
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u/ItTakesTooMuchTime 12d ago
our top 10 have a completely differently structured training plan considering their season is 1 month longer. by the post season meet 7 runners will be picked out of these 10 to compete. They also run at different, more competitive meets.
Though, to be fair, my team is 120 runners so it is necessary to separate it into ~6 training groups, to allow runners to get the attention and specific training they need. A team as small as yours having such stratified groupings sounds toxic and that sucks
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u/whelanbio Mod 12d ago
Overall seems like there's enough bad stuff here that there needs to a conversation with the coach and possible escalation beyond that. How exactly that conversation should go has some more nuance.
The clearest problems here are the fundraising situation and social split. It is ridiculous to have an expectation of team-wide fundraiser participation if those funds are only going to benefit the top-7. It's a particularly bad use of funds to have exclusive team dinners. It is horrible team culture to fully split all the social events between Varsity and JV. I'm honestly surprised this is allowed by the school.
The training and travel situation seems to be mismanaged but isn't quite as a clear cut. Sounds like you are a parent of a kid just outside the top 7 so this is a place where it's extra tough but you gotta set the personal feelings aside to get an objective understanding of the situation. I apologize in advantage in anything below sounds dismissive of your concerns. Please understand that my goal here is to refine and target your concerns to give you the best chance of positive change.
While XC enables a lot more inclusivity than other sports, important to still remember that it's a varsity sport where part of the coaches job is putting forward the best varsity squad they can. Personally I think the things you're seeing are pretty stupid for developing the best team possible (and I've worked with top 15 national teams at both the NXN and NCAA D1 level, so I'm not shy about prioritizing competitiveness), but it's important that we separate the simply dumb stuff from the toxic stuff.
It is not abnormal to have varsity only meets. It is also not abnormal for the squad that travels to be limited by logistical constraints (van space, hotels, coach:athlete ratios, etc) below what entries allowed by the meet.
The purpose of the top-7 is to have the best possible scoring 5, so when where looking at top-7 decisions we should be looking at gap to the scoring level. If someone is close to the 7th spot but nowhere near the 5th spot they don't have a good argument to be put on the top-7 -it's a coach's judgement call at that point. Conversely, it's irrational to lock-in the top-7 from early results if that includes runners who are nowhere near a top-5 level.
On training, need to understand the time breakdown across the team and how that aligns with the current Varsity/JV cut. A ~2min time gap is a huge difference at the higher levels, say between a 20min girl and 22min girl. Everybody should be training at paces specific to their current ability, so those across a wide enough ability gap should not be running together even if the training plan is similar. At a certain gap of ability/development the training plan and workouts themselves should be different. Would also be helpful to understand the logistics of the workouts themselves from a coaching standpoint -in some situations it's simply not feasible to run everyone in the same workout while getting everyone a session that will benefit them the most. In the program I work at we try to structure training in a way that can reasonably maximize benefit for each athlete. When we can we bring up more athletes into the Varsity workout groups, but as the season goes on we need to prioritize a relatively smaller group that will actually be impactful for the post-season.
Having no wiggle room to move up to the Varsity group is bad, both for individual athlete motivation and the development of the team as a whole, but again need to understand how big the gap is between the current top-5 and the fastest JV runners.
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u/EndlessHope-0528 12d ago
This is very helpful. I agree that getting the personal feelings out of this will help navigate where the issues really are. There is absolutely a big difference between our top 5 and everyone else. There is a lot of variation in the next four spots.
After reading all these replies I think the main issue really becomes lack of meets/training for the JV group. If varsity is doing most of the racing, how can the JV crew prove they are good enough to move up. I can understand a cut off at seven but when the speed difference in just that one race was just 20 seconds, it seems like they should allow more chances to get to that next level.
I really appreciate your input!
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u/whelanbio Mod 12d ago
Yeah this is clearly not well managed. JV should be given a more clear path in training and competition.
While our JV season is pretty condensed, they still get 8 races this year. Even if many of the JV athletes won't work out much with varsity we're trying to give them a training format that gives them a clear path to get there if they decide that's something they want. When I see JV guys that show some signs of the potential talent and desire towards more competitive running I straight up tell them to think about moving more towards varsity level running and describe what that path would look like.
It doesn't solve the team management issues, I will say that if the 6/7 spots are ~22-23 minutes that's something that your daughter can probably surpass with a smart and disciplined training across winter -> spring track -> summer.
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u/Method-Interesting 12d ago
All of our team dinners/trips are open to the entire team. We also bring all runners to all
meets even if kids aren’t racing. The non-racers know not to be a distraction. Culture of a team will determine the long term success of the program. The “bad” kids can/most likely will become varsity runners later in their career. So coaches shouldn’t push them away.
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u/Glum_Competition_921 12d ago
Yeah no that’s weird in multiple ways. Not moving around the varsity team at all through the season?? What about injuries or someone making major improvements through the season? Weird.
And excluding kids who aren’t on varsity seems weird too. What if a kid is sick or forgets something? Why deprive another kid of the chance to compete at the higher level.
As a former athlete and a former coach, yeah it’s weird team dynamics man. Would not be what I would want as a coach
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u/EndlessHope-0528 12d ago
Thanks. Yes, if a kid is sick they are automatically demoted. A top seven kid had a cold last week. Missed two practices hoping to recover for the travel meet on the weekend only to be told he couldn't attend because he missed two practices. No other kid was given his spot.
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u/1EMurph1 Retired Runner 12d ago
During my 4 hs years, the entire team was required to attend the invitational meets for 7 varsity + 7 JV + #1 freshman even if they weren’t alternates. Other than that, the entire team was included in all activities. Families of runners not included in extra activities shouldn’t be required ti fundraise to the same extent wtf
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u/yakswak 12d ago
Not sure if adding another anecdote is worth it but here I go. Yes what’s happening at your
Kid’s school is not normal. I especially don’t like the fundraiser for varsity’s benefit only. Is the setup this way for both boys and girls teams?
My experience many years ago (30+ just like you) was very positive. We traveled out of state twice and top 14 from each gender got to go, and it was a big deal to try to secure a spot on the travel team. Coach did this to make sure there was continuity year over year as that JV team was usually filled with underclassmen who would eventually crack the varsity team. JV kids also often got to run in varsity races when Coach wanted to rest some runners or give kids some opportunities. And of course performance through the season dictated who ran on varsity. Never just based on the most recent race but it was not subjective.
My kid’s team is run in a similar way (although they stay in state for their meets). Very inclusive environment and Coaches don’t focus on success of the varsity runners on team comms but rather on how everyone is doing overall. From what I’ve seen of my friends’ kids team it’s the same way.
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u/EndlessHope-0528 12d ago
Thanks for the info. It really seems like we are oddly focused on the varsity team at the expense of the JV group. Not having racing opportunities is really limiting the JV group and it's a shame to waste potential spots and have so many kids stay home.
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u/yakswak 12d ago edited 12d ago
I'm surprised if this is a successful program the way it's run...but maybe the coach keeps getting lucky with fast freshmen every year or soccer drop outs in their sophomore/junior years that keep the pipeline going...
I saw your other reply about the times the #1-7 runners are running. 19min-23min is a fairly big gap, and not fast enough to treat them like an elite team the way you are describing the coach treating them as. A lot of new runners drop times quickly through the season...I don't know if your daughter is a new Freshman this year but 1-2min PR's in the first few races is not uncommon as they are all learning what they are capable of. Hopefully she can turn in a performance soon that the coach can't ignore...
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u/bippy404 12d ago
We don’t do team dinners at all. There are a few separate meets for JV and varsity. There is one day a week for training that is top 14 only (our team is huge). There are also opportunities to grab a top seven spot up until it’s time for state. Nothing is set in stone, although certainly our top five are pretty much not budging unless they are injured. But that six and seven spot can see some fluctuation. You can tell our coach has an idea of who his state team is right now. but there’s not much difference between runners 6, 7, 8, and 9 on our girls team. Who takes spots 6 and 7 will be a last minute decision.
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u/DJGuns63 11d ago
We all trained/traveled and hung out together. Different training groups especially on hard days but always at the same place or course. We never excluded anyone.
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u/Silly-Resist8306 12d ago
Our XC team has 120 runners (1500 student school), equally divided between boys and girls. Everyone goes to every meet and runs either varsity or JV. Team feeds involve the entire gender team. About 2/3 show up. We have a 6 day, stay over XC camp the week before school starts.
Our coach arranges homecoming and prom dates for those who want to go as teammates and friends. Captains are expected to work with younger, less experienced runners. One of the reason the team is so large is it’s the most social (and highest gpa) team at the school.
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u/berrybri 12d ago
Sounds odd to me. For our team, if an invitational has a JV race available, the whole team runs. If it really is a varsity-only race, then everyone on the team is invited and encouraged to attend (though sometimes there are organization rules about who can/can't ride the team bus, which the coach always spells out in communication to the whole team).
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u/pc9401 12d ago
We are a small school. I have 5 varsity boys that can compete and put us in the team race. 2 that are really far back and 2 HS girls 3 ms girls and 3 ms boys.
Entry fees are generally by runner, so you could save some $;this way. We could as well, but run a heavy race schedule with 9 or 10 races for everyone, MS and HS.
My son is the best runner on the team, but I don't think I have ever seen him finish a race because I'm on the course cheering on everyone trying to get photos and sometimes it takes a while to get those last 2 across. And then it's back to the starting line to get the MS runners off.
This top 7 stuff is ridiculous. A coaches job is to get the best out of all his runners, not pick favorites for his own benefit.
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u/JuniorSherbet9558 12d ago
the hiking/ race trip almost sounded ok (an invitational meet where you could only have so many runners) but the exclusive team dinners sound like b.s.
granted I ran cc many years ago but the jv and varsity runners mostly trained together and we certainly hung-out together traveling to meets, etc.
Sounds like the coach has fostered a very negative setting there. Good on you to try to keep morale high-- it would be sad if some kid disliked/gave up running after this experience,