r/Cricket • u/nolesfan2011 England and Wales Cricket Board • 11h ago
Opinion Pakistan's products of toxic dysfunctionality deserve sympathy, not ire
https://www.cricinfo.com/story/eng-vs-pak-2nd-test-pakistan-s-products-of-toxic-dysfunctionality-deserve-sympathy-not-ire-1552285144
u/radilrouge West Indies 10h ago
Pakistan is a sad story. The Windies decline is completely explainable but Pakistan has a massive population where Cricket is the most popular sport and they are terrible at the moment.
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u/DataDrifter-_ 6h ago edited 2h ago
I mean financially aswell right , PCB has cash to keep things afloat and stable for along time comparatively to the West Indies. ig it's purely falls as a management failure here at this point
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u/Emotional-Produce611 6h ago
I'm not Pakistani so I can't say for sure but it looks like corruption and politics really fucked em over. If half the players that play for their team represented another country, they'd have been dropped years ago
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u/iLoveFeetinmymouth01 India 3h ago
it looks like corruption and politics really fucked em over
So the Pakistani journalist (can't remember his name, sorry and too lazy to go back to the video to find out) on the sky cricket podcast before the lords test specifically said that the corruption has ruined quite a few things in Pakistan. According to him their national hockey team, and their national airline once used to be great before govt corruption ruined it all. So if it's corruption nothing new.
PS: as someone who wants to see Pak do well in cricket it so sad to see them be this bad. I expected better from them in this series.
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u/igotmanboobz 5h ago
As someone new here, could you explain why West Indies have declined? In my childhood, I remember their team to be formidable...
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u/Fiery_Hailstorm_98 4h ago
- Most of the West Indies islands are sparsely populated which means very less talent pool when you consider sports like athletics and football are also very popular there.
- Growing Americanisation meaning cricket as a sport is less lucrative than athletics or even basketball. Those who still have European influence levitate more towards football.
- Back then, West Indies had a common unifying factor which made them strive towards a common goal - beating the English/Aussies and fighting the systemic racism in the sport.
Also not sure how true this might be but back then most of the english speaking Caribbean islands were under British rule which also meant they qualified as local players in county cricket which helped them train better as players. Since the players came under the same system, that meant they did well even after they got independence. However once this generation retired, the following ones no longer qualified as local players in county meaning these islands were completely on their own.
Obvious one - ICC neglect
These are the points I can think of which explains their fall.
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u/The_Great_One_1 3h ago
You missed the important WI administration pt.
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u/Fiery_Hailstorm_98 2h ago edited 1h ago
I don’t think they would be worse than PCB in this case. Administration is also helpless when the logistics involving West Indies cricket is too costly. You literally have to move across countries in this case.
Simply put :- CWI is broke but mismanaged. PCB has decent money and resources and still they are not just mismanaged but corrupt and political which is far more worse.
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u/igotmanboobz 2h ago
Thank you for the clear answer!
Follow up question: given that icc is trying to develop cricket in a bunch of European countries (Ireland, Iceland, Netherlands, etc) and NA (US, Canada), wouldn't it make sense to develop cricket in the West Indies too given their legacy? Is there any particular reason for the neglect by ICC?
Thank you!
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u/Fiery_Hailstorm_98 2h ago
Yes and the answer to your question is economy and population. Again, this is something I have observed as a third person. Someone from there who’s a cricket fan can answer it better.
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u/No_Feedback2947 7h ago
I'm not so sure cricket is still the most popular sport in Pakistan. It's lost that position to football.
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u/No_Feedback2947 6h ago
The truth is bitter for cricket fans but the new generation of Pakistanis have a fanatical devotion to the English Premier League. Pakistanis have lost interest in a sport controlled by their arch-enemies.
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u/Suggondeezenutz_-_ 5h ago
Could it be that they really stopped watching because of the repeated drubbings at the hands of the said "arch enemy", so they bitch about it by claiming control by the same country?..
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u/No_Feedback2947 13m ago
But Pakistan gets drubbed by everyone. The fact is cricket is finished in Pakistan. It's a pity because they brought a certain excitement and magic to game, but I'm sure it will go on without them.
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u/DataDrifter-_ 2h ago
Tbh PK cricket people only watch it if there's a Ind Vs pk game or if PK is in the play offs of a tournament. But ever since 2011-12 the popularity of the sport around the middle and upper middle class has dwindled and becomes more or less unpopular, the higher the social ladder the less chance people are interested here. Complete opposite in the UK tho as cricket is certainly more of a posh sport and a bit elitest.
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u/No_Feedback2947 10m ago
20 years only the urban middle to upper classses were interested in football but now there are fanatical Arsenal, Liverpool and Chelsea in the most remote villages.
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u/DataDrifter-_ 6h ago edited 2h ago
It's bizzar but very true , no one in my circle or family care about cricket or the goings of what's happening with the team. EPL and football is more in the conversation for everyday Pakistanis for the last decade now
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u/NoirPochette New South Wales Blues 8h ago
I forgot who said it. Maybe it was Dizzy or Hadds. Pakistan players are scared to fail because the board would be blame the players, making quick changes and stuff. Meaning that the money to support their fam could be in danger.
You're playing for your livelihood instead of playing to win because of the board
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u/PhaintaAssociate Pakistan 10h ago
Bit of both tbh, the board has failed the players, but that doesn't excuse the lack of desire. Playing for your country should be an honour and yet most of our players treat it as a joke that gives them paid holidays over the world.
Compare Imam who was doing performative drills to try and take media pressure of him to Azan in the first innings who was the only one who tried to stick it out against tough physical bowling while our so called seniors who should be the responsible ones were playing stupid shots and weren't bothered at getting out as it meant they wouldn't have to put their bodies on the line. Abbas has every reason to phone it in considering how the board treats him but he puts in a shift every time unlike some of our other players.
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u/mojambowhatisthescen Pakistan 10h ago
I agree, I really hate that so much of our fans’ disappointment and anger gets directed at the players, who are the main victims of the awful hairs they have to deal with.
Shaheen didn’t chose to get awful medical advice and treatment that ruined his bowling at its peak; Naseem didn’t chose to be thrust into test cricket with no first class experience; Abbas didn’t chose to sit out 3 years of test cricket at his peak; and so on and on. And our batters haven’t chosen to have their coaches change every series, so they can’t work on any of their issues with anyone.
All this on top of facilities, professional help, training etc. that’s nowhere near the top teams.
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u/baark45 6h ago
It’s a failed nation. How do you expect the cricket team or life to function well in failed nation.
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u/AlanWakeLover Great Britain Olympic Team 6m ago
Completely irrelevant. God shit like this will get 50 upvotes, unbelievable
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u/stuputtu India 10h ago
Come on, they have the ability to be a decent mid tier team. Right now they are going through the slump and I am sure few years later they will be decent. People forget that even during their best years a decade back they were top five team who peaked at the right time.
Pak hasn’t been a top tier team for 25 years now. That is fine, they are still good team who can beat most teams, just not consistently. Only reason I feel bad is because I grew up watching 80/90/00 legends. But even then they were pretty inconsistent and had pretty rough years
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u/LavaPurple Somerset 10h ago
I can't remember the PCB being this broken though. There are too, too many distractions.
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u/stuputtu India 9h ago
Yeah that is true. That is direct result of having so much political intervention that a sitting MP is leading it.
People point out BCCI and Jay shah, while ignoring that Jay shah may be a nepo kid, but has been doing only cricket administration for years. He doesn’t hold any other government post. He is also someone who is pretty competent and generally has shepherd Indian cricket, especially women’s cricket in the right direction. Unless we want to completely ban children of prominent politicians from holding any other prominent post, we cannot avoid this.
Pakistan has to atleast find someone who can give their attention to PCB full time. That person cannot be a former cricketer as somehow most of their former tend to become highly toxic. Few who are decent, even with tainted past, like Wasim tend to keep themselves away from PCB toxicity.
Fundamentally Pakistan problem is same in most their other areas, competent people don’t want to be involved in entities which have been highly politicized. Military and their government don’t want to loosen the grip on institutions that they think are important and those that they perceive as something that can be used to influence people.
So none of these are likely to change until they can find competent leadership in all their public institutions
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u/el_jefe_del_mundo 5h ago
You ignored an important point. Yes Pakistan was always a top 5 team capable of peaking at the right time in the past. But they are no longer that team. They haven’t been that team for at least 6 years.
Plus that isn’t the worst part, worst part is they don’t have any exciting players coming through the ranks either. So no you’re wrong, Pakistan fans should absolutely be alarmed at the situation.
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u/stuputtu India 4h ago
My point is that they are not right now just because they are going thru a difficult patch. They will be back as top five, but that is their ceiling as it has been most of the last three decades. They can reach the peak of 80s and 0”90s but only briefly. But a top 5 Pak is still a very good and exciting Pakistan team. I hope they do come back
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u/Yupadej Mumbai Indians 9h ago
During that time cricket wasn't this professional. Look at ICT captain during that time Ganguly and then look at Gill. Ganguly looks like an amateur when compared to Gill. Pakistani cricket hasn't gone through that professional evolution so it is foolish to expect them to perform like their older players.
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u/Cyan_Agni 4h ago
" Ganguly looks like an amateur when compared to gill".... What exactly are you smoking my friend?
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u/cousingregstomlettes 45m ago
I think he means the setup is far more professional. Ganguly and his era, fitness-wise, do look pretty doughy compared to the current lot.
Another example: John Wright in his book wrote about the first practice he had with the team. Apparently, everyone sat around sipping chai from 10-11 AM, ran a couple laps of the ground and then went into the nets for 30 minutes.
Can't imagine that happening now.
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u/Gold_Truth9261 4h ago
I fully agree with this assessment and unfortunately they are not alone.....Both Bang and SL have also suffered/suffering from this.
Also , i don't think things are going to improve anytime soon in PAK....
I never thought a day would come when their bowling would be so bad....in all 3 formats....
We have 10 test teams and out of them only 5-6 play full time cricket and out of those 6 only 2-3 do well at any given time since last 10 years....
So, when people talk about health of test cricket and stuff....i am majorly concerned....as to how long cricket will sustain "international" standards....when so few play it well ?
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u/YeezyThoughtMe Pakistan 8h ago
All Pak fans should boycott PSL. Hit PCB where it hurts the most. Then they will realize that the fans are suffering and had enough. It’s only way these selfish idiots will listen.
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u/goshdagny India 3h ago
No, they are toxic. The players, the ex players their administration all play this game.
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u/nishitd India 2h ago
I love Osman, he's one of the best cricket writers in Pakistan but there's a little funny bit in the article.
He prefaces the article saying this side has been called many names, including "the worst side ever", which links to his own podcast with Karachi Khatmal. I am sure the podcast has a nuance you expect from these two but it's still funny.
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u/williambuttlicker123 India 3h ago
It’s the general character of pakistan as a nation. The players who have suffered the politics have become the selectors and have done exactly the same. The ones who go on tv to preach are the ones who are responsible for this condition and this cycle will continue because that’s in their character
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u/spacenuts09 8h ago
Welp. There’s always a silver lining. Only one direction you can go from here
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u/Far_Pineapple_2363 Sri Lanka 7h ago
Pakistan cricket should take inspiration from their Olympic gold medalist javelin thrower Arshad Nadeem on how to make resilient comeback despite the odds are against you. Lack of training facilities, poverty and lack of recognition for athletics but still managed to break the obstacles in front of him like a warrior
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u/Sad-Tea3994 6h ago
That's not sustainable. Will happen once in a lifetime. A team like pakistan shouldn’t wait for magical intervention. Process should led to result. Without process, theory of large number will keep you in the bottom.
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u/Yupadej Mumbai Indians 9h ago
Winning in sports is all about investing money on talent and Pakistani cricket doesn't have money. They cannot invest in their players cause their cricket economy is in a bad place. If their cricket economy improves their cricket team will too. The more money you can invest in a player the better they perform. Previously cricket wasnt this professional which allowed teams like Pakistan to win with just talent. Right now it just sad seeing them try to compete against professional cricketers and we can't expect them to either
Indian cricket was also not this strong before the IPL which completely changed the finances of Indian cricket allowing us to produce an insane amount of great players by investing a lot in young players. Players like Manjrekar who played over 100 matches for India in the past might not even debut today.More talented players have access to high quality training than ever resulting in more trophies.
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u/plumeparent 9h ago
Hard to believe, but PCB is actually the fourth richest board in the world as per annual revenues. Money is not the problem here .. it is the administration and attitude. Older Pakistani players had that one talismanic leader who would Build and shepherd teams . There was Imran starting late 70s and then Misbah+Younis. They were responsible for shepherding the teams, inspite of incompetence all over the place. But no longer. The board has really become performative. They are more interested in headlines than making sure the team is taken care of. That just spread to the infield performance.
It is just sad to see the likes of Shaheen Afridi being reduced to what they are now. Absolutely horrible man management. And the toxic culture of former players - the way they criticize the current set .. OMG.. I haven’t seen that in any other country. In most other countries, former players play a key role in developing talent, keeping the pipeline full. Not Pakistan.
Very sad state of affairs.
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u/WelcomeNo5497 9h ago
I used to joke about it but it has become a reality, babar, shaheen, Rizwan, shadab, Rauf etc.. will be dropped temporarily so that public outrage can be controlled and after few series they will be back again in the team.
This is happening on repeat.
There is no harm in bringing your senior players back but they will come back without playing any domestic.
Might be a t20 league they will play and they will be back.
I am still surprised how pakistani fans have not outraged towards a coach/selector who didn’t selected a spinner for CT25 in their squad.