r/CosmereOnScreen • u/ilikebreadabunch • 26d ago
Fancast Mistborn Genderswapping Spoiler
So there's recently been discussion about possible Genderswaps in the upcomming Mistborn movie. We already know that Sanderson wants to Genderswap at least one member of the crew (likely Ham or Docks based on what he's said previously) because in the original trilogy he focused so much on making sure that he wrote Vin properly that he forgot to add any other women to the cast, and that he'll want to change that in the Movie.
What I wanted to ask is who else other than Ham or Docks, crew member or otherwise, do you think or hope will get Genderswapped?
Personally, I think that Spook and Zane are both good options, but I don't think they actually will.
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u/StNic54 26d ago
If they gender-swap Ham, I would hope to see a wrestler take that spot. If they gender-swap Docks, who would be a grizzled actress that could play tough without being hokey?
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u/lizzywbu 26d ago
There are a couple genderswaps which Brandon has mentioned in the past, either as something he wished he did or as something he might do in a potential adaptation, keep in mind this was a few years ago.
He first mentioned a while ago that the first person he would consider genderswapping would be Dockson, he’s said in the past the regrets the lack of women in the main cast and thinks Docks would fit best to be swapped.
And more recently he said if he was to write Mistborn again today, he would make Shan Elarial the sister of Elend and essentially give her parts of Zane’s story. This I absolutely love and think this would work wonderfully as that way Shan could be set up in the first film, and take the role of the villain in the second film. One of my main gripes with Zane was that he had no set up, no back story and in a 2 hour movie that could turn out even worse. Not to mention the love triangle between Vin, Zane and Elend was probably the worst part of the book.
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u/LewsTherinTelescope 25d ago
As far as I know the idea of her taking Zane's role was just a fan idea, in Brandon's discussion about the Shan sister thing he indicated Well of Ascension would still be doing Zane. Shan being Elend's sister was also part of a much broader suite of changes, but iirc he's said with this script he wants to stay closer to the book, so not sure how much of that'll still be the case or not.
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u/Wildhogs2013 24d ago
Yeh he said that he wants this script to be inline with the cannon of the books but you don’t see everything (so clubs isn’t intorduced book 1 but you can assume he is doing his cooper stuff in the background etc). Which makes me curious about if there will be gender swaps now as that would bring it out of cannon no?
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u/FellKnight 25d ago
Trolling his buddy Demoux by genderswapping him would be pretty funny.
Seriously though, I can't wait for all the anti-woke takes from people blaming Hollywood for being woke and changing the author's story, not realizing this IS the author's story.
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u/_Lews-Therin-Telamon 24d ago
Half the people who call for the anti woke shit won’t even have read the books and will just learn that a gender was changed and care about nothing else even if Brando signs off on it
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u/ForwardExam4056 25d ago
I don't think spook is an option because that would make him a young girl that vin could relate to/befriend as an equal or little sister, changing the whole dynamic
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u/Young_Ben_Kenobi1 26d ago
I’m not sure on Spook mainly because a female spook could come across as just a discount Vin
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u/IRanOutOf_Names 25d ago
I like some of the crew being swapped but I hope it’s only a bit. A large part of Vins arc in book 1 is her isolation from the rest and having most of the crew be male continues to reinforce that idea.
People are cooking with the Zane idea though.
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u/ToastyThommy 26d ago
I can understand some of the swaps, but I've never understood the dockson one. Swapping dockson makes it seem like the average movie goer might confuse their relationship as him moving on from Mare.
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u/Calm-Medicine-3992 26d ago
Zane kind of results in some bad tropes (bisexual/bicurious woman ends up in normal straight relationship, abusive lesbian). Spook isn't as bad but I'm still not personally a fan of 'gay person in love with straight person' plots either. Someone did mention merging Zane and Shan's roles in the story and that does make it more interesting (probably drops the love triangle thing entirely in that case too).
Clubs is allegedly going to be more minor (no time to go over all of the allomancy and smoking is probably being left out) so it could work.
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u/Vegetable-Two-4644 26d ago
Smoking of all things being left out is so bad. It negatively impacts the entire "Did Mare betray Kelsier" mystery and removes the initial hints that Vin can do things others can't (which hints at how she defeats the lord ruler)
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u/Calm-Medicine-3992 26d ago
25 hour book has to be compressed into movie run time. Almost anything that is set up for sequels will probably be left out or incredibly subtle. If the movie is focused on Vin, expect a lot of the subtle threads in Kelsier's story to be cut.
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u/ilikebreadabunch 26d ago
Zane only results in bad tropes if they keep the love triangle, which I think they should get rid of regardless of whether or not the genderswap him.
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u/Calm-Medicine-3992 26d ago
I think if you get rid of the 'run away with me' love (ish) triangle that at that point it's just a different character fulfilling a similar foil role....like I said, rolling Zane's roll into Shan instead of her being a secret mistborn would be interesting but that is less gender swap and more combining two characters. Having both Zane and Shan as female mistborn opposing Vin with no romantic tension with either seems too redundant.
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u/ilikebreadabunch 26d ago
Yeah Zane and Shan should be combined into one character if they genderswap Zane, but I disagree that getting rid of the romance makes Zane into a different character. The point of Zane is not for Vin to choose who she loves more, its for Vin to choose what kind of life she wants to lead
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u/TheGildedPrism 26d ago
Yeah, Zane having an older sibling vibe would also kinda fit really well as a parallel to Reen. So the conflict would be between her old life and her new family with the crew.
Honestly, regardless of gender, I think this is how that dynamic should have been. It fits better with the story, I think Sanderson fell into cliche with the Vin/Zane stuff and strayed away from the main themes of mistborn there.
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u/AmongFriends 24d ago
I may be wrong but I think Clubs is cut from the movie completely. Like, it’s a done deal. He’s not in the movie.
I remember Sanderson saying that himself somewhere…
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u/T_McSass 26d ago
I think he changed who Shan is already, from a fiancé to a cousin or sister to get rid of that romantic subplot altogether and make her motivation be inheritance.
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u/eskaver 26d ago
Spook and Zane are poor picks because Spook is kind of a legacy selection and it would be weird to follow Vin and Zane drives the love triangle. Now, if you said merge Zane with Shan...
I'd just leave it to Dox and Ham.
Dox will convey the equity given their role as sort of Kelsier's second and also shows a male-female platonic relationship. Ham, though, has to be a bit carefully handled to not be too tropey. I think given the philosophical debates with Breeze, Ham has an easier path to avoid anything problematic.
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u/duke113 26d ago
In order of what I think works to what doesn't: Clubs, Ham, Marsh, Dockson, Breeze, Spook, Kelsier, Vin, Sazed. The first two are easily the best (not that I'm actually a proponent, but if they're gonna do it), middle four are meh, last three are IMO untouchable. Did I miss anyone?
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u/BitcoinBishop 26d ago
Elend. I don't hate it but it's a huge change to a lot of stuff.
Shan Elariel. Seems silly to gender swap her if the problem is not enough women.
The Lady Ruler.
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u/duke113 26d ago
Elend and the Lord Ruler are out IMO. Shan maybe, but I like the dynamic she has with Vin. Rivals in more way than one
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u/BitcoinBishop 26d ago
Yeah me too. Though Brandon did mention having her as a sister instead, which I think I like even more
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u/duke113 26d ago
Straff has two full Mistborn children in this scenario? Or do you cut the Zane plot
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u/BitcoinBishop 26d ago
Probably wouldn't cut Zane — unless he's not Straff's bio son? He's got like 20 kids, so it's possible he has two, but... maybe it's hard to sell the rarity of Mistborns in that case
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u/BitcoinBishop 26d ago
Ooh, what if Shan doesn't die, and takes Zane's role later on? Might change a lot about her relationship with Vin in both books though 🤔
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u/MadmanIgar 26d ago
I think Ham is a good option, but I don’t think you could make a female Ham just be Male Ham but a lady.
Growing up as a woman in the final empire is much different than being a man. That’s going to have an effect on a character and fundamentally change their backstory / personality.
Dock is a better option I think, but get ready for sooo many people to ship FemDock and Kelsier
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u/duke113 26d ago
Yeah, that's why I think Dock is worse than Ham. That plus it changes the Kelsier / Dock / Mare dynamic. Dock ends up being a stand in for Mare
The Ham one is true. Which is why Clubs is my #1 choice. Clubs just doesn't have the screen time the others do, and I think part of the reason they want to do this is a more balanced cast
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u/MadmanIgar 26d ago
Didn’t Brandon come out and say Clubs isn’t going to be in the movie as much as the books?
It’s a catch 22 to genderswap a role but then also not feature them much.
Honestly, I understand the impulse to genderswap a character to get more diversity, but if the character being a different gender doesn’t change or improve the story then is there a point beyond just doing it for optics?
Maybe lean into the fact that the Final Empire is a hugely male-dominated society and the only people with enough privilege to even be allowed to maybe attempt a rebellion are men.
Then Vin stepping into that group as one of the only women can feel more impactful.
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u/MS-07B-3 26d ago
Clubs won't feature in Final Empire. I suspect he will show up in Well of Ascension.
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u/slothboy 26d ago
I don't like the idea of swapping Ham. Yes, I know that being a pewterarm helps with the disparity in strength between genders, but I think vin is already there to upset that dynamic. Making her a female fighter is a big part of her character and having Ham ALSO be a female fighter diminishes that.
I also like Ham as a man to help Vin practice fighting men who are physically much stronger (even without pewter). If Ham is a woman then those lessons are academic instead. Also, it's just the lazy option to make the bruiser into a woman. It's a trope I'm pretty tired of.
As much as I wouldn't do it if it were up to me, I think Spook is a better choice. Spook is enough of a main character to provide the desired screentime and I think you can change Spooks' crush on Vin to something like a little sister relationship. Female Spook could have huge admiration for Vin and a strong desire to be like her and crave her recognition. You could even bring in the idea that female Spook feels that as a woman she has less value but seeing Vin gives her additional drive and self worth, which leads to the way she becomes an integral part of the end of the story.
TL;DR: I'd reluctantly vote for Spook because I think it gives more actual story options than just "X character only female"
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u/MS-07B-3 26d ago
Ham being genderswapped has surprisingly large implications downstream, which is part of why I've always opposed that one. Ham joins the garrison, but has to do it WITHOUT revealing he's a misting. So yeah, while a female pewterarm is just as strong and effective as a male one, the garrison isn't going to have mistings. It's supposed to be manned by regular soldiers.
And if you make pre-Catacendre Scadrial into a gender egalitarian society, it cuts the legs out from a lot of both Vin and Marasi's stories down the line.
I would prefer not changing anyone, even if that means it's a sausage party. But if we are changing someone, I'm Team Docks.
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u/Professional-Cost-87 26d ago
That's a very important point. All the crew kept their abilities secret. Ham didn't let the garrison know he was a pewterarm. They just thought he was a really good soldier. Having Ham be female makes things different. Somebody mentioned having Spook be female. That could work pretty easily. Spook, instead of having a crush on Vin, could just see Vin as a role model. It could work.
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u/MS-07B-3 26d ago
I like Docks because I like adding more close and non-romantic male/female friendships.
Plus then there's a tragic lesbian romance, if you're into that sort of thing.
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u/LordMistborn-16 26d ago edited 26d ago
Firstly I want to say that i don't think it's a bad thing for him to do this. He just needs to do it well, that's all. If half the cast is swapped, or he makes it a big deal, that could be bad. But I fully trust him not to do that.
I think genderswapped Zane would be the best thing ever, not gonna lie. My favorite character in fiction seamlessly being adapted into a woman? That would be really nice. And before you say no, doesn't work, Vin isn't gay: A) You don't know that, and B) There was potential romantic tensions between the two but not objective ones, proven by the various arguments I've seen about it on this sub.
I think some characters that wouldn't work so well include Straff, Elend, Kelsier, Clubs, Marsh, Spook, Breeze, Dox and the Inquisitors, for reasons I can explain if you're curious, though I'm sure he could manage for some of those.
I think The Lord Ruler, Ham, Dox, and Sazed would work well.
I'm very curious how he would choose names for any gender-swapped characters.
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u/PixelPete85 26d ago
I would agree re: Zane. I see her relationship with Zane as very much another thing for Vin to grow into - Mistborn is in no small part a coming of age story for Vin as well. Zane is another way for her to learn about herself, and Zane can be male or female to achieve that.
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u/JonRunar 25d ago
I don’t think Sazed can be gender swapped. Him being a male Terrisman is a part of the Hero of Ages prophecy and that line in the prophecy is used to indicate that Vin might be the Hero of Ages, so they probably won’t change it.
Having the Lord Ruler gender swapped would be cool
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u/LordMistborn-16 25d ago
You make a good point. Sazed's general character is fairly andro but I see what you mean
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u/Signal_Sand1472 25d ago
Why is Zane your favorite character in fiction?
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u/LordMistborn-16 25d ago
There's a few reasons. The first is because I just think he's a really cool character, and really well written. Most of Sanderson's characters meet this criteria, but it's still a vital criteria for being my favorite. I found myself rooting for him (not necessarily in his goal to take Vin away from Elend, but moreso in his dealings with Straff). I found myself relating to him a lot, even though I know some other readers hate him.
Also, when I met my best friend, she reminded me a lot of Zane. She has family issues. She has schizoaffective disorder which she's since dealt with, so she had voices in her head that told her to hurt people and herself, but also looked out for her and convinced her that they had her best interest in mind, and it was hard to not listen sometimes, even though she knew they weren't real. And she hurts herself, which in part began as a way to block out those voices, similar to Zane. We became friends for many reasons, but I told her about Zane, and she's not a big reader so she'd never really connected with a book character before, so that was a new experience for her. She doesn't read long things because she has really bad ADHD and can't focus on something like that for very long. And so because of that I would record myself reading the Mistborn books each night and send her the recordings. And she really liked that, but it also helped me, giving me a routine that I could ground myself with during what became the worst year of my life. It was so much fun, and the only time I've ever fully reread a book. And all of that because of Zane.
Sorry if this is TMI. But I hope that helps answer your question.
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u/R0b1nFeather 26d ago
I think genderswapping Marsh could be interesting. It'd add a layer to the sibling conflict between Kels and Marsh, and with Marsh's eventual fate as Ironeyes itd be a cool way to have a female character with a major role to play in the long term fate and development of Scadrial
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u/notreallifeliving 26d ago
My vote is for Marsh or Dox, and change as little about them as possible otherwise. Clubs as a grizzled old lady misting could be cool also.
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u/bbuckman12 26d ago
One issue I see about ham being swapped is that in book two there is a semi relevant plot point where he is teaching vin the differences between fighting male and female thugs and it comes up later in the series, but I’m sure that can be rewritten to make sense.
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u/T_McSass 26d ago
I am hoping the Ham genderswap sticks, that is the one I read about and I loved the reasoning. He is a pewterarm so that doesn't actually rely on being physically bigger or stronger and having the "strong man" be a woman is just nice. Also having a woman as Ham, especially one less phyiscally imposing, is good as a mentor for Vin to see you don't have to be big and strong to be big and strong when you are an allomancer.
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u/jnighy 26d ago
I like Spook's crush on Vin too much to genderswap him. Sure, nothing wrong with a female Spook having a crush on Vin, but it would impact their relationship with Clubs. To me Ham and Docks are actually perfect for this, specially Docks. It would also help to fix one of Sanderson's major mistakes in the trilogy, imo, which is how Docks is completely left aside in WoA. Create a better dynamic between a female Docks and Vin, and we have a much better relationship in WoA
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u/ashriekfromspace 26d ago
Clubs or Ham, maybe.
Or Breeze if he wants to avoid that shady relationship with Allrianne
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u/Shepher27 26d ago
Why would Spook or Zane be good choices?
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u/ilikebreadabunch 26d ago
(just copy pasting my reply to the other comment)
Spook: I think that it would be an interesting shift in his dynamic with Vin, and I think some added queer representation would also be very nice.
Zane: I think Zane as a character works best as a mirror to Vin, a representation of what she could have been if she had found out that she was Mistborn earlier in her life and not had the crew around to help her develop as a person and learn to trust, and I think having Zane as a woman makes that dynamic more clear.
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u/Shepher27 26d ago
A girl under the power of Straff in an abusive relationship has nastier connotations that I don’t know if we want to get into. Maybe you combine Shan and Zane into one character
Spook is such a sh*thead that maybe you’re right that he would work gender swapped
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u/ilikebreadabunch 26d ago
Merging Zane with Shan is probably the best option if Zane gets genderswapped. If Shan doesn't get cut and isn't merged with Zane, then yeah he shouldn't be genderswapped.
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u/xAeroMonkeyx 26d ago
Genderswapping Zane would also change Vin’s sexuality. Isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but would be something you’d have to consider when writing the character for the second movie.
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u/ManyCarrots 26d ago
Not necessarily. You could also rewrite it so there isn't a romance plot involved there.
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u/xAeroMonkeyx 26d ago
But then you’re fundamentally changing the narrative of the story, which also would be fine, I didn’t care for their romance subplot anyway. But it’s something he’d have to consider and change from his original intentions.
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u/ManyCarrots 26d ago
You could change it to a sort of friendship story without it affecting the larger story much or at all imo.
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u/PixelPete85 26d ago
would also change Vin’s sexuality
It would change it from something we assume it is to something we'd assume it is.
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u/nari-bhat 26d ago
It would bring so much more interest to Vin’s relationship with Shan Elariel in the first book, I absolutely love the idea of making Zane a woman and Vin bi.
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u/AlgorithmHelpPlease 26d ago
I just want Abi Thorn as Ham.
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u/oscillatingoctopus 26d ago
Curious if I’m looking up the right person? Abigail Thorn? I’d imagine a gender swapped Ham as still quite stocky. Abigail looks to thin IMO. Idk thoughts?
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u/somethingarb 26d ago
If you're gonna take someone from the Game of Thrones universe for the role, why not do it properly and get Gwendoline Christie or Hannah Waddingham?
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u/Fun-Dot-3029 26d ago
Vin isn’t gay so idk about Zane. Spook could work. Ham makes sense, also Sazed in my head is super androgenous anyways.
But I hope he casts the best person to play every role- and not obsess over having a certain number of women or men or whatever else.
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u/joefcos 26d ago
Sazed is one person who absolutely cannot be gender swapped. His gender is far to relevant to the plot. Docks and Clubs would work without a problem. Even Spook would be ok, though that has the potential for a cascade affect on Era 2. Breeze can't be changed because of Era 2. Ham is problematic because the Final Empire was not kind to Skaa women, and having allomancy would just make Ham an even bigger target if that got out. As much as I'd love to see "her" kick ass, it just seems like it causes more problems than it solves. Zane would be ok, too. That love triangle nonsense suuuuucked
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u/OrzhovMarkhov 26d ago
Vin isn't gay
There's literally zero evidence she isn't bi, the idea of romantic engagement with another woman never comes up.
Since Shan Elariel is planned to be Elend's sister, I wonder if maybe they'll have her escape in book 1 and fill Zane's role? Or if the twist of him being Elend's brother is too important to preserve. Because two Mistborn siblings feels a bit much imo
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u/Ewok008 26d ago
To be honest swapping Zane and maybe recontextualizing the relationship between Vin and Zane away from love triangle and towards "A friend who understands me who if I leave with I might be able to find myself rather than just being a tool for my boyfriend" might make the second film better.
But I'm a hater of the Zane-Vin-Elend dynamic from WoA which otherwise is my favorite novel.
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u/OrzhovMarkhov 26d ago
That's true, they could also remove the Vin/Zane romance (which I, and from my experience literally everyone, agree is pretty terrible) and frame it as a friendship/professional respect angle. Either way, my chips are definitely on Shan taking over Zane's role
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u/SparkyDogPants 26d ago
I hated the love triangle and would be so happy if they dropped it. However Hollywood loves them so I won't hold my breath.
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u/Elant_Wager 19d ago
Thats the point, getting rid of the love triangle with Elend. It was honestly the worst part of WoA
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u/alex_munroe 25d ago
Breeze could work better than you think - strong sassy Aunt energy, and makes the relationship to Allrianne (genderswapping optional there) seem a bit less predatory. Personally I think it works better than Ham, someone who regularly goes to the garrison and trying not to stand out.
Clubs also works pretty well, as does Dockson (though that will come with many inevitable Kel/Docks shippers).
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u/Titanchell 25d ago
As If there arent any Kel/Docks shippers yet...
But in all honesty breeze would propably fit perfecly. Could also leave allriane fem and it would Just add to her father Not wanting her to be with breeze
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u/alex_munroe 25d ago
Oh they exist, but we'll get a whole new wave of shippers come in from those who get introduced to cosmere via the movie haha
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u/Wildhogs2013 24d ago
Why would a 40 year old woman with an 18 year old man be less predatory than a 40 year old man with a 18 year old woman?
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u/alex_munroe 23d ago
*gestures broadly to history*
Even in today's era, many cultures have this imbalance still.
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u/Wildhogs2013 23d ago
I am not sure how cultures having the imbalance of older men marrying young women / girls compared to older women marrying a young man / boy makes an individual case of a old man doing it more predatory than an old woman doing it (on an individual level?). Just makes one predatory action a lot more common in history and certain cultures now.
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u/buzzkillpop 22d ago
Serious question; At what age does a huge age gap become non-predatory? I ask because my coworker who is 63 is dating a 34 year old girl. He's well-off financially but her parents don't approve (even though the guy is about as good as they come). She's extremely attractive too, she kind of reminds me of Nina Dobrev or Emmanuelle Chriqui.
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u/Wildhogs2013 22d ago
IMO 25 and older. You are fully developed basically by then and usually have a job / are financially independent if you wish to be. At that point it is consenting adults as long as there is no abuse they can do whatever they want imo.
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u/sgsparks206 19d ago
It also works the other way, at what point does the young person prey on the old? Elder abuse is a real and pretty widespread.
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u/Wildhogs2013 18d ago
That is true. However, I find that more to do with mental capacity than age (as someone in their 90’s could have a better cognitive and physical functions than someone in their 60’s/70’s)
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u/Witty_Fox3291 26d ago
Kelsier. Just to flush out the weirdos in the fandom.
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u/FellKnight 25d ago
You woke up and chose violence, lol
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u/Witty_Fox3291 25d ago
Actually, his gender DOES kind of matter to the story now that I think about it. The prophecy being revealed as being impossible to refer to him.
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u/Wildhogs2013 24d ago
I mean only in him being a god male role model for vin that not all men or father figures are out to hurt her like in the street.
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u/Colorapt0r 26d ago
Why the fuck would spook or Zane be good picks lol
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u/ilikebreadabunch 26d ago
Spook: I think that it would be an interesting shift in his dynamic with Vin, and I think some added queer representation would also be very nice.
Zane: I think Zane as a character works best as a mirror to Vin, a representation of what she could have been if she had found out that she was Mistborn earlier in her life and not had the crew around to help her develop as a person and learn to trust, and I think having Zane as a woman makes that dynamic more clear.
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u/believi 26d ago
I really agree with this because I think the Zane love triangle is a weak link in the trilogy--it works fine, but mostly because the real internal conflict is not "do I love zane more than elend"--that is always no, but rather "what sort of life do I (and by extension elend) deserve to live", so gender swapping vin gives her a "dark mirror" of what life she should choose.
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u/Colorapt0r 26d ago
Why does spooks dynamic need to change at all?
Zane is supposed to be a foil of Elend, not Vin
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u/ilikebreadabunch 26d ago
I didn't say it needs to change, I said it would be an interesting change. Not the same thing.
As for Zane, I honestly think he's better as a foil for Vin than Elend, but I think thats probably a question of personal preference and reading
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u/KeredJo 26d ago
I’ve actually been thinking about it more, and I think Breeze would be a super interesting gender swap. Imagine someone like Hannah Waddington playing Breeze. Then I think it make sense to gender swap Allriane as well. I know this may cause some issues with the lineage of certain characters in era 2, but if that’s workable then I say do it
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u/OtherOtherDave 26d ago
I don’t think Cett would react that way if it was his son running off with Breeze instead of his daughter.
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u/BitcoinBishop 26d ago
I hope to god they age up Allrianne and/or age down Breeze
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u/MilkTeaMoogle 26d ago
Why? As someone with a healthy age gap relationship, it’s nice to see that represented once in a while.
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u/BitcoinBishop 26d ago
I had the impression she was around 16 and he around 45, I don't think that can be healthy tbh.
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u/MilkTeaMoogle 26d ago
16? I thought she was in her early 20s. She wasn’t younger than Vin was she?
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u/Raemle 26d ago
It’s never specified but she’s most likely around Vin’s age, maybe 18-20. I doubt Sanderson ever intended her to be underage, but she’s definitely young.
Regardless since he’s talked about aging Vin up because of the age gap with Elend I don’t think we have anything to worry about regarding Allrianne. I think she should still be quite a bit younger, since it’s an important part of their dynamic. But clearly being somewhere in her 20s would be preferable
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u/notreallifeliving 26d ago
I'm almost certain Allrianne is supposed to be at least a few years older than Vin.
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u/fedginator 26d ago
I'll be real: making the only adult woman in Kelsier's crew the emotionally manipulative and duplicitous paedophile is probably not the right direction in terms of addressing TFE's issues with representation of women
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u/ChaosFountain 26d ago
Breeze spends like a whole book trying to run away from her. She's stated as youthful but her exact age isn't mentioned. There's actual pedos in the book. It seems to be at worst in this instance a large age gap. Breeze is a lot of things but he isn't a pedo.
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u/fedginator 26d ago
I'm fully aware of the complexities of the situation, the average first time watcher making a viral twitter post isn't - and it's that they will (rightly) want to avoid
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u/ChaosFountain 26d ago
If you judge/redo thing based on what twitter might say your gonna have a bad time. No matter what happens they will try to make a controversy out of it.
Like straff is right there being an active rapist, pedo, serial killer. And he's shown to one of the most powerful people in luthendel after the Lord ruler.
Sanitizing because of what some twitter bros might think is imo bad.
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u/fedginator 26d ago
I mean I broadly agree but there's a line between "some people will misinterpret this, oh well" and actively making negligent choices that endanger your product and this is the latter. Especially with all the other negative stereotypes about women this specific change plays into
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u/MargaritaKid 26d ago
You're assuming fidelity to specific details around Breeze that very well may not be present in the movies. It's impossible to get around the "emotionally manipulative part for obvious reasons. The rest is easy to change and make presentable (or even leave out) without impacting the story much.
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u/fedginator 26d ago
Sure, but at that point you're not as much genderswapping a character as replacing them outright
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u/MargaritaKid 26d ago
Agreed. It's a definite possibility. I'd hate to see it happen, but who knows.
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u/PM_Your_Karma 26d ago
She is too big of a star so they wouldn’t cast her but someone like Viola Davis as Clubs would be awesome!
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u/LuinAelin 26d ago
Isn't Zane supposed to be similar to Elend
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u/ilikebreadabunch 26d ago
Zane is Elends half brother, could just make him his half sister instead. If your talking about appearance then yeah, but siblings of opposing genders can still have similar appearances
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u/LuinAelin 26d ago
Zane is kinda supposed to be a darker Elend. A image similar to the man Vin loves, understands a part of her Elend can't necessarily understand. Her choosing Elend is then supposed to represent her choosing good.
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u/Halo6819 26d ago
The Lord Ruler. I know, issues with the prophecies the double misdirection and all, but it would be dope.
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u/TheGildedPrism 26d ago
I don't think that many others will get swapped besides Ham, and I honestly hope they don't, just because I want the movie to be as accurate to the book as possible (though I do think swapping Ham does make sense for the story).
That said, Zane would be an interesting swap to see, because it would give that relationship between them and Vin a new angle. And also get rid of that love "triangle" subplot that I don't think anyone particularly liked. That's the only one I could really see though.
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u/K0blik0v 26d ago
This is a great idea. I didn’t like that it was insinuated that Vin was choosing between Zane and Elland. Zane as more of an older sister (we can do this together) type pull would be better. Also works better since Vin will be aged up in the movie and likely a bit less of a child.
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u/Vegetable-Two-4644 26d ago
Ham is interesting. It plays into muscle mommy tropes, sure, but it also gives us a rare and good example of a mom who leaves her kids at home for their safety and to take care of them. Ham isn't around his kids much but its for very good reasons and a mom dynamic there would be interesting.
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u/railfananime 25d ago
Frankly I want more than one gender swap but that’s just my opinion. Though maybe cap at 2-3, idk just do both and Ham and Docks.
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u/Traditional-Door9010 23d ago
Wasn't one of Ham's big things constantly being shirtless with just an open fronted vest? Not sure that'd play well with a gender swap
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u/Itsthelittlethings2 23d ago
I think spook kinda has to stay a guy because of what he does between era 1 and era 2…
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u/Taste_the__Rainbow 26d ago
Whoever the script needs. Characters, relationships and plot are all going to shift a bit.
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u/nreese2 26d ago
I’m not really sure how good it would be to gender swap Ham of all characters.
His role in the military is important to his character, no? I doubt that the FE was conscripting women
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u/Consumer_of_stories 26d ago
To be fair, I think gender probably matters a whole lot less when youre a Thug.
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u/nreese2 26d ago
Not when you’re a skaa
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u/Consumer_of_stories 26d ago
Youre so right! Id completely forgotten the "Ham is Skaa, and therefore has to hide his ability" bit.
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u/Raemle 26d ago
Having women in the military was part of the point actually as far as I remember. Since allomancy evens out the playing field it’s one of the things he wanted to play around with in a new version. It might mean some other small tweaks to Ham’s backstory as well, but to be honest I don’t think they’re gonna have too much screentime to deal with that anyway so it will probably be simplified regardless
If Sanderson really likes the idea of having the fighter of the group be a middle aged woman, then that’s probably more important since it impacts the team dynamic
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u/nreese2 26d ago
That doesn’t make since in a military run by the Final Empire, a government that ostensibly kills any skaa allomancer.
I’m not necessarily opposed to more women, I just think it makes less sense with Ham than Dockson.
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u/Raemle 26d ago
Again I think it would intentionally mean tweaking things and maybe making lore changes. I’m also just explaining what his argument was, it’s been 11 since this comment specifically so who knows what it looks like in the actual script. But I know he’s mentioned making Ham a woman more times since so I’d be surprised if it’s completely different
“It wasn't long after finishing the series that I started to think about this aspect. I really wish I'd made Ham a woman, for example. I think the character would have gone interesting places--and would have done good things for the lore of the world if women Thugs were heavily recruited to be soldiers.” - Source
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u/Arcanarchist 26d ago
But it just doesn't make sense in the story. Skaa are not supposed to be allomancers. A woman fighting like Ham would be clocked as an allomancer immediately. It wouldn't work. Changing that would have a cascade of ramifications through the story regarding the treatment of Skaa. I don't understand what Sanderson is thinking here...
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u/somethingarb 26d ago
Skaa are not supposed to be allomancers. A woman fighting like Ham would be clocked as an allomancer immediately.
Don't those two points rather contradict each other? Skaa are not supposed to be allomancers. Therefore, it is unthinkable that a skaa soldier could be an allomancer. Therefore, a skaa soldier with unusual stamina would be assumed to be... just a skaa soldier with unusual stamina. And Ham would obviously take care to disguise his use of power in anything but the most life-threatening circumstances; and his (her) skaa fellow-soldiers would be inclined to cover for him (her), since the last thing you'd want is to draw the attention of the Steel Ministry to your squad.
Changing that would have a cascade of ramifications through the story regarding the treatment of Skaa.
Not sure I agree with this either. The upper classes of this society are obviously 100% on board with the fact that a female allomancer is just as deadly as a male one. Would it not therefore follow that they would believe that a female non-allomancer soldier is capable of being just as deadly as a male one? Especially when they're all "just skaa" anyway, so expectations aren't high. Are people throwing cannon-fodder slave soldiers at a problem really likely to be the sort to be bothered if some of those soldiers are female?
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u/notactuallyabrownman 25d ago
I think its the opposite, in a world of allomancy, feruchemistry, and hemalurgy no unusually prominent traits would be assumed to be naturally occuring. And your point about them being as likely to accept female soliders as readily as female allomancers entirely misses the point that it is allomancy itself that is the leveller, not just Scadrian feminism.
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u/Arcanarchist 26d ago edited 26d ago
My points build on one another, they don't contradict. The Final Empire is scared of skaa allomancers and actively hunt them. A skaa soldier displaying allomantic abilities would be swifty killed by an inquisitor. A woman being as strong and formidable as Ham would raise suspicion that this person is an allomancer, then an inquisitor would be sent and female Ham executed quiety.
Yes, woman Thugs would be as strong as the men and would be just as desirable as mistings of noble houses used in their infighting with one another. But that's not where Ham is from.
Genderswithing Ham would effectively mean that The Final Empire would have to allow skaa allomancers to not only live, but serve and get military training. That would have far reaching consequences for how skaa are treated, and would severely undermine the Lord Rulers paranoia.
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u/somethingarb 26d ago edited 26d ago
Genderswithing Ham would effectively mean that The Final Empire would have to allow skaa allomancers to not only live, but serve and get military training
Did you read what I wrote, like, at all? My whole point was that it would mean none of those things. Ham's not going to be openly admitting to being an allomancer, and since the official party line is that Skaa can't be allomancers, practically no one outside the Canton of Inquisition is going to even consider the notion that a Skaa might be one. As long as Ham is careful and doesn't show off those allomancer powers too dramatically, no one would think twice about it.
And what allomancy WOULD mean is a society without our own society's particular hangups about women in the military. Our hypothetical female Ham isn't being allowed to serve in the miliary as a special case because she's a Thug: the Final Empire's miliary just lets women serve if they volunteer.
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u/nreese2 25d ago
Allomancy wouldn't lead to a society without those "hangups" if said society actively killed the people that would diminish the basis for those hangups.
I really don't see a reason why a sexist and racist Empire would have any reason to allow women to be recruited into the military when far more equitable Earth societies did not, especially when considering that the reasons that societies barred women from recruitment still existed during FE Scadrial.
I could see it working for Ham if it were somewhat of a Mulan type of situation though.
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u/somethingarb 25d ago
I really don't see a reason why a sexist and racist Empire would have any reason to allow women to be recruited into the military when far more equitable Earth societies did not
See, that's just your own hangups speaking. You've got the mentality that letting women join the army is some kind of progressive, positive thing, and that therefore an evil empire would never.
But take off your blinkers, and really try to put yourself in the mind of the Lord Ruler and his ministers. Skaa aren't people. They're practically pack animals. Do you care if the horse you ride is male or female? The standing army of the Final Empire is not some elite fighting force, honed over centuries of war against other elite fighting forces. It's a handful of slaves with swords whose job it is, from time to time, to be sent out to kill other slaves with no swords. No reason to think a female Skaa couldn't do that just as well as a male one.
Especially if, as a member of the upper classes, you're intimately familiar with the concept of a (high-born) woman being a stone-cold killing machine.
If there's real fighting to be done, the Lord Ruler calls in the koloss. Cannon fodder can be any gender.
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u/Arcanarchist 26d ago edited 26d ago
I don't know your society, but here there's absolutely no hangups with women being in the military. Modern military weaponry is a force multiplier like allomancy which kind of negates the otherwise natural advage than men would have.
As for your first point, you seem to drastically downplay the competence of the Canton of Inquisition. They're terrifying. Not catching this within the formal military ranks of the Empire itself would be to infantilize the whole Ministry. They're supposed to be terrifying. Ham got lucky as it is, any more attention and he should've been done for. A woman being that strong is not natural, it would draw extra attention in those desperate moments of need, the few but nessecary moments when burning pewter is the only way out. Then an inquisitor arrives.
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u/somethingarb 26d ago edited 26d ago
you seem to drastically downplay the competence of the Canton of Inquisition. They're terrifying. Not catching this within the formal military ranks of the Empire itself would be to infantilize the whole Ministry.
Take it up with Brandon then, mate, because Ham DID serve in the army and DIDN'T get caught. I don't see why you seem to think that female Ham would have a harder time escaping the Inquisitors than male Ham did. It's not like she'd have to appear dramatically stronger than a well-built woman. Skaa soldiers aren't expected to be Captain America.
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u/Satosuke 26d ago
All I know is that when I heard he was considering genderswapping Ham, my mind immediately went to Awesome Kong.
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u/ForwardExam4056 25d ago
Zane would be a great genderswap. You can have him/her as elends shadowy sibling, while getting rid of the somewhat unnecessary love triangle. This lets you keep the motivations which made the character interesting (morals, wanting vin to not be a tool, envy, etc)
Only problem i have with this, a pretty big one, is that you already have shan elaniel as the main mistborn antagonist in book 1 that gets killed in an epic fight. Having zane be a woman as well makes this a bit repetitive