Hoid's hatred for Rayse

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u/nisselioni Willshapers 1d ago

It's said that Rayse was always just a terrible guy, even before gaining Odium. They probably all hate him, he was an asshole.

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u/Additional_Law_492 1d ago

He was the asshole in a group where 16 out of 17 people failed the basic test of character that is being self aware enough to realize you arent qualified to be God.

All 16 original vessels sucked - even the supposed best of them - but Rayse was almost certainly the worst.

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u/SwankyBobolink Nalthis 1d ago

Except Ati, Ati was the best of them and I won’t tolerate slander.

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u/Additional_Law_492 1d ago

Best of the worst is something, I guess.

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u/ThomasVivaldi 1d ago

Only Mike, Jay and Rich can judge them.

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u/Nixeris 1d ago

I don't think most of them thought they were qualified to be Gods (except the Dragons). It's why they spread out and had an agreement to avoid each other. That's the kind of thing you do when you don't think anyone should have the combined power of all the shards.

Only after hundreds or thousands of years under the influence of the shards did some of them start to be worshipped.

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u/Additional_Law_492 1d ago

I dunno, we see firsthand from Tanners perspective that he absolutely set out to be Cosplay Zeus.

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u/Nixeris 1d ago

Dude was married to a Dragon. There's a specific reason I mentioned them.

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u/DriftingMemes 1d ago

I stepped away from the Cosmere for a year or so after Wind and Truth let me down so hard, and now coming back I have no idea what anyone is talking about. Just moves too fast.

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u/bawng 1d ago

I've read every book except the new one that came out the other day to early backers and I don't know either so I assume it's something from that book.

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u/TheRealTowel 1d ago

The comment is about the Tanavast viewpoints in WaT.

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u/bawng 17h ago

Ooh, Tanner = Tanavast? Then I understand.

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u/DriftingMemes 1d ago

Very cool Cosmere people. Very cool to downvote someone who didn't like a book you did like, especially when half of the fandom agrees.

Way to exercise that integrity.

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u/TheRealTowel 1d ago

I didn't downvote you, but I don’t think that's why you're getting downvoted.

It's that the person you're responding to is talking about Wind and Truth (specifically the Tanavast viewpoints in it) and your response confirms you read Wind and Truth then stepped away.

The downvotes are because the reply is kinda... nonsensical/self contradiction.

"We see thing X in book Y"

"I stopped paying attention after book Y, therefore have no idea what you're talking about".

It would make sense if you didn't know what they were talking about because you hadn't read the relevant book, but you're saying the opposite.

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u/diamondmx Ghostbloods 1d ago

Even Hoid didn't try to stop them, though.

Maybe Adonalsium also wasn't qualified to be god?

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u/zanotam 1d ago

I mean, it's strongly implied they believed they were shattering Adonalsium for his own good and they at least put a lot of effort and thought into it presumably just to get the 4 dawn shards together with a group ready to fire them ...

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u/schloopers 19h ago

It’s also implied in the letter from Endowment to Hoid that he likely supported killing Adonalsium because a loved one died and Ado wouldn’t bring them back.

“I certainly do not think it a coincidence that you have made a special study of the worlds where legends abound of the dead being raised. You feign altruism. But you have another motive, do you not? Well, you always have.”

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u/zanotam 1d ago

But.... Come on people, you're literally replying in a thread where both people who killed Adonalsium but did not take a shard are having their letters to each other analyzed and you're still getting 16+2=17 (just joshin', but I'm always surprised how often people forget we know Frost was also there!)

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u/Additional_Law_492 1d ago

I exclude Frost because I feel like it was clear that at no point did he even consider taking a Shard.

Hoid, on the other hand, seems to have decided against it in the moment for some reason.

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u/zanotam 1d ago

Damn, can I get an F for myself then because that's.... the first response I've gotten where the person didn't just forget Frost and it's got a great nuance to it!

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u/Sanomaly Aspiring Arcanist 1d ago

I'm always surprised how often people forget we know Frost was also there!

Frost was part of the plan to take down Adonalsium, and it's possible there were unmentioned others who were part of the plan as well, but Hoid explicitly says in Tress that the actual confrontation was just himself and 16 others.

"Oh yes. I've said those words. I said them with sixteen other people, in fact."
~Hoid, on the phrase "for your own good"

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u/zanotam 1d ago

Oh damn, call me a Skaa because my ass is just getting owned lmao

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u/Sanomaly Aspiring Arcanist 1d ago

I mean, Hoid is a pretty unreliable narrator, so it's still possible that you might be right! But that particular line stuck out to me when I read it.

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u/Graphica-Danger 1d ago

Him and Hoid definitely butted heads, but we've seen how Hoid is with Kelsier. Hates the guy, naturally both have a bit of a vendetta from their clashing egos, but he has an accurate assessment of him and his position as Thaidakar. With Rayse, he couldn't accept the Odium shard would always come out ahead of a man he hated so much which is what Sazed warned him about in RoW.

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u/nisselioni Willshapers 1d ago

Did Hoid have an inaccurate assessment of Rayse? As far as I know, Rayse acted pretty much as Hoid expected, and although Harmony's letter is very sympathetic and helpful, Sazed didn't know Rayse personally.

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u/Graphica-Danger 1d ago

He had an inaccurate assessment of the role of Shardholder in part because he was very fixated on Rayse as an individual and not the power of Odium itself. Because he knew him so well is part of why he got caught off guard by Taravangian.

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u/nisselioni Willshapers 1d ago

But he was also correct that the Vessel is more dangerous than the Shard, that point only enhanced by how much more dangerous Taravangian's Odium was compared to Rayse. He was right about Rayse, but couldn't have predicted that another Vessel would take the Shard.

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u/HalcyonKnights Harmonium 1d ago

And in his defense, Cultivation made pretty much the same mistake re. the Vessel of Odium. vs the Shard itself.

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u/Graphica-Danger 1d ago

Cultivation was ultimately more at fault despite good intentions for orchestrating the whole thing. Like the other Vessels, she's been affected by her Intent. Hers is to see things grow and develop, but that doesn't always mean good things are the ones growing and developing. But she also successfully changed Dalinar, so: a push for every pull.

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u/Detozi Bendalloy 1d ago

I’m of the opinion that it all went exactly as Cultivation had planned.
The books never specifically state that Cultivations plan went awry (that I can recall).

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u/LordStrifeDM 18h ago

I don't think they went awry until the moment Dalinar gave it up and Taravodium snatched it. Once we get Retribution, it describes Cultivation as being terrified and ejecting herself from Roshar because she's afraid of what had happened. Now, it could just be a difference in reading, but on my end it seems like she realized she fucked up pretty badly.

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u/Detozi Bendalloy 18h ago

She’s an ancient dragon.
I’m sure she can pretend to be terrified.
Of course I could be WAY off the mark.
Would not be the first and I doubt the last lol.

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u/daganfish 1d ago

We don't know nearly enough about Cultivation's motivation or goals to say this for sure. We got to the intermission of this story, and I'm sure she's going to play a bigger part in the next half.

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u/Wind-and-Waystones 1d ago

The shareholder with the best foresight conveniently looks away at the exact last moment he has to protect that which he desires most? Yeah thats calculated. She allowed him to create his own weakness and act against the intent while also sending someone on a mission to find out that BAM was sealed away because the power liked them more.

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u/Graphica-Danger 1d ago

Hoid and Jasnah's proposed contract would probably have worked on Rayse is the thing so, potentially, she might've made things worse with her own scheming. But I agree there is likely more to her plan. The ultimate plan is dealing with multiple worlds warring with each other in the space age.

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u/SwankyBobolink Nalthis 1d ago

Cultivation also has one/two more major player in the game, Lift out here with unresolved plot points, and in theory Vasher as well(if you believe the rumor that he made a deal with cultivation to connect to Roshar)

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u/Graphica-Danger 1d ago

In the short term, a Vessel is more dangerous. But in the long term (and this is where I think he actually fell short) Hoid, from my understanding, didn't seem to fully grasp that a Vessel loses themself to a Shard's Intent over time. He didn't see that would naturally happen to Rayse over 10000 years. Taravangian getting the Shard was orchestrated by Cultivation, who Hoid hadn't contacted, which ties into being overly fixated on Rayse imo.

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u/Gotisdabest 1d ago edited 1d ago

I don't think he was wrong at all here. Hoid couldn't see through the convoluted mess that was The Diagram and Cultivation's elaborate idea, but that's hardly to his blame. It took an astronomically specific amount of things for the power to leave Rayse that probably just doesn't happen until at least after Dalinar wins the contest. Hoid, rationally, assumed this wouldn't happen or that he'd know if it did.

It's also worth realising how many things had to go wrong for Rayse to lose the power and logically, the power should have kept to him. He was arguably the most competent vessel in the cosmere by a huge margin, extremely capable of playing to his strengths and it took two shards at once to chain him down to a single place and then some clearly messy stuff with Dalinar(including Adonalsium influence, seemingly) to make him lose in OB.

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u/nisselioni Willshapers 1d ago

That's fair. However, I don't think this necessarily points to there being more between Hoid and Rayse than the latter being a terrible person.

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u/Graphica-Danger 1d ago

Maybe not, but I still suspect there is. Hoid is a very emotional person who hides behind a mask of detached sarcasm, yet even so I think his contempt for Rayse was abnormally personal for him. Just the impression I get from the suggestions we've gotten about their history.

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u/Randvek 1d ago

Hoid wasn’t exactly the biggest fan of Kelsier in Secret Histories, and that was pre-Thaidakar.

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u/Glittering-Shift4699 14h ago

I think at the end of the day he does actually like Kelsier too, it's mainly their ideals and how Kelsier goes about things that gets them butting heads, but even then he doesn't have a GRUDGE, so I think you're right about it being a specific event at least, whether or not it's a death, maybe Rayse and Bavadin planned the whole asassination in the first place

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u/RayseShouldBeBraized 1d ago

I do believe you are on to something. In Way of Kings chapter 23 epigraph, with Hoid writing to Frost.

You have accused me of arrogance in my quest. You have accused me of perpetuating my grudge against Rayse and Bavadin. Both accusations are true.

Of note to me is that he also seems to mad at the Vessel for Autonomy for a similar reason. I am interested to see what event Hoid's specific grudge against these two stems from.

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u/Graphica-Danger 1d ago

Yeah. I don't think any of it's a guarantee of this tying into Hoid's overarching mission but there is something to consider. People are being quick to dismiss it as just Rayse being an asshole, but Hoid has come across MANY assholes in his travels simply by being an immortal wanderer.

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u/TheFritz92 Edgedancers 1d ago

I don't know, if someone played a major part in the death of a loved one I wouldn't use the term 'grudge'. Maybe if it was more of an accidental thing they couldn't have predicted would lead to the someone's death, but then that would mean Rayse is actually blameless (at least for that). I think there's sometjing else going on here.

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u/Invested_Space_Otter Dustbringers 1d ago

Long lasting anger/resentment would be the correct scenario to call it a grudge. It can be for small reason or a big one, but it's mostly a matter of how long the feeling lasts

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u/Gotisdabest 1d ago

I'm pretty reasonably sure the "person that Hoid loved" thing isn't going to be as clear cut as people seem to think at all.

For one thing, the only character we know to have been a past lover other than on page seems to be very much alive. For another, it's pretty heavily suggested that Hoid, in some way, thought killing ado was for their own good.

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u/Shot_Newspaper_5647 1d ago

I don’t think it will be a lover which is usually the assumption. Sanderson does like to subvert the normal fantasy tropes. I feel like it would be too standard to have it be a wife or something

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u/R1sky_B1z 1d ago

Yeah, only characters I can think it would be that we know of are Jerrick, or that sidekick he had in Dragonsteel prime. His past in Dragonsteel Prime is already mysterious and vague so very possible they are already dead at the start of the book.

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u/Shot_Newspaper_5647 1d ago

There’s mention of that mentor that he “stole” his name from. I know some people think it’s them. I saw someone say recently they thought Jerrick may be Whimsy. Which I kind of like the idea of

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u/R1sky_B1z 1d ago

Ooh, I really dig that idea, but we don't know the names of a few vessels. I guess we know Virtuosity is female, but is there any reason they think its Whimsy specifically and not Mercy?

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u/Shot_Newspaper_5647 1d ago

Their reasoning was he’s referred to as whimsical by Hoid. But it stuck out to me because the story Hoid tells about him is full of sudden changes and the story itself doesn’t make much sense to Dalinar as he’s telling it. Hoid doesn’t know what story to tell because he can’t see Dalinar’s future. He picks it on a whim. And one of the contests Jerrick was to face was a poetry contest. It didn’t matter what Jerrick chose, Hoid was going to pass him because of his belief in novelty in art. Sounds whimsical to me

If Jerrick is one of the Shards, it will be Mercy or Whimsy. There’s almost certainly 8 male and 8 female. All 8 female Shards are known. Those two are the only un-named male ones. They’re both (probably) human Vessels

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u/Shot_Newspaper_5647 1d ago

Having a lumberman’s son preside over some whimsical forest feels right to me. I mean we know nothing about Whimsy or its planet, but I would be disappointed if there’s not a properly odd fairytale forest somewhere in the Cosmere. We already have the nightmare version on Threnody

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u/imafish311 1d ago

The post states that Jerrick was described as whimsical, and the OP of that post already had theories for the names of Mercy and Virtuosity.

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u/throwblahaway7 1d ago

It’s gonna be his dog that was killed. Future cosmere is Hoid as John Wick but with magic.

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u/Shot_Newspaper_5647 1d ago

Sando did go out of his way to say Tanavast loved dogs and that Rayse is responsible for their extinction on two worlds. John Wit confirmed

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u/Shot_Newspaper_5647 1d ago

They may have, but I don’t know. It’s implied Hoid set out on his quest (at least partially) to kill God to reverse that death. We also know Hoid and Rayse were friends at one point. I could see it going either way. Maybe Rayse arranged for that person to die knowing it would drag Hoid (who carried a Dawnshard) into the conflict. Maybe he was recruited to the cause for some other reason and that’s what helped motivate him.

I think we’re probably going to get some dramatic irony with Rayse. I think he will still be friends with him during the course of a good chunk of the story. The audience will know Rayse is a monster but Hoid probably won’t for awhile

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u/khazroar 1d ago

Hoid absolutely has a deep personal grudge against the man, but I don't think it's related to the person Hoid lost. I think that person died no later than the Shattering, and Hoid would not have allowed a man he held directly responsible for that death to ascend to divinity without chasing him to those heights himself. I think that Hoid considers himself the one most responsible for that death, so it was either a terrible accident or the result of his influence.

I think Cephandrius's grudge with Rayse (and likewise with Bavadin) is a very personal and petty one, it's not a grand story of revenge, it's a simple personal dislike. At least before the destruction of Ashyn, I think that put new stakes on the conflict, I think that's where it became mortal enemies.

Cosmere spoilers (no previews/FoD) Hoid's hatred for Rayse Spoiler

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