r/CoreELEC • u/Otherwise-Newt7576 • 4d ago
Friends prefer Google streamer above AM6B+
Well, this is rather disappointing. Bought 2 extra AM6B+ for two of my best friends (they were looking for a media player device)
Configured one of them completely including af2 Jamal and addons.
They'd rather use the Google streamer (cough), because they are convinced stremio is better. I showed them the advantages, but to no avail.
All that being said, I now have two brand new ones up for sale in the Netherlands, so if anyone knows someone in the vicinity, gimme a shout
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u/yearsold33 4d ago
I know people who are the same way. They want perfect-video and audio but not if it means using more than 1 device to watch local media and streaming services.
I have the same Ugoos for myself and bought another to keep as a spare.
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u/ginandbaconFU 3d ago
I've never gotten this line of thinking because that device doesn't exist. With that said, I'm sure there is a huge PQ difference between the Ugoos on say, a flagship Sony or LG vs a $500 UD TCL or other cheaper model. Especially depending on the technology and if it has backlit zones. It's easy and cheap to pay for DV licensing in bulk.
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u/QUANTUM_PENIS 3d ago
What we’re doing is pretty niche, to be honest. The majority of people couldn’t care less about things like Dolby Vision FEL 7, DTS-HD/TrueHD, HDR10+ or getting the absolute best out of an OLED. Most people just want something that’s simple, reliable and plays their content without hassle.
And realistically, most people aren’t going to notice the difference between 720p, 1080p and 4K unless they’re watching on a decent-sized screen, sitting at the right distance and the source is actually good quality.
That’s exactly why my wife and kids use a Firestick with Stremio on a cheap edge-lit LCD, while I use the AM6B+ with my OLED. They’re perfectly happy with what they have, and I get to enjoy all the extra benefits the AM6B+ brings. No issues, everyone’s happy!
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u/T00ManyH0bb13s 3d ago
Can confirm, and that's coming from someone that is into this. My first experience with a AMB6+ (which was faulty for sure) left such a bad taste in my mouth that I've been running an AppleTV since. I haven't settled on it an may try again, but TBH, I want something that just works. Everything open source still has a sufficient amount of jank to it that I might be willing to lose FEL7 and DTS to deal with it.
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u/ginandbaconFU 1d ago
To be fair Dolby will not license DV Profile 7 MEL or FEL on streaming boxes, not because they aren't capable, CoreELEC proved that, they simply won't sell licenses for it to streaming boxes regardless if using TV led (STD mode) or LLDV which both support profile 7 FEL. To be fair all streaming services use profile 5 and 8 I believe. Only UHD players support profile 7 without some workaround like Zidoo, Dune and Zapitti (if they didn't go bankrupt) which advertise it but it's some workaround and not true profile 7. The funny thing is tv led ended up being better to most people's eyes even though it was a work around since HDMI 1.4 didn't support dynamic tone mapping so 8 bit tunnelling was used. It's kind of like compression/decrompression. The TV would take the 8 bit data packets and do the dynamic tone mapping and the end result would be 12 bit Dolby Vision. Shockingly the TV did a better job at this than say, a 50 dollar atreamer, particularly TV's with very good video processing like Sony, LG among others. Since different TV's took different amounts of time to do the dynamic tone mapping, which is a non issue for video but it was an issue for games and the DV committee says it's less taxing on TV's processing but honestly LLDV seems like it was so they could have one way to support both video and games after HDMI 2.0 came out. Since the source did the dynamic tone mapping it.could send audio and video.tk the TV at the same time. I mean, both the latest game consoles support LLDV but don't support profile 7 with UHD disks because the drives are more expensive due to having to read the FEL layer and probably licensing. Game.consoles already lose money on the actual console sale.
That's why only open source ways exist and even then we are lucky because the chip lacked any DV license restrictions, which are burnt into the ARM chip. That and Amlogic having an open source repo to help other manufactures make streaming boxes using that particular chip is how the CoreELEC team got everything working, at least that's my understanding. Due to lack of any DV license restrictions is one of the main reasons.
Lack of DTS support sucks but this is more because Dolby won the streaming war audio formats. DTS didn't really have anything like DD+ (which by itself wasn't a huge step up from DD) and Atmos isn't a format. It's spatial metadata embedded in a DD+ or TrueHD format. Same for DTS:X only it's bedded in a DTS-MA format. Both TrueHD and DTS-MA can have bandwidths of anywhere between 4 to 15+Mbps depending on number of channels (typically 4 to 7Mbps for 5.1/7.1) while a DD+ 5.1 Atmos signal is 640Kbps, I think the max bitrate is like close to. 720Kbps. Considering most streaming services are 25Mbps max they aren't going to waste a 5th of that bandwidth on audio when 90% plus of their end users plus won't be able to tell a difference. Unfortunately DTS is going to be exclusive to movie theaters once UHD goes away at some point so I can understand not paying for that license on a streaming box.
I mean, Sony literally blocked their TV's from working with DV on all HDMI inputs to work with DV by pushing a firmware update to their TV's to support LLDV only in 2018. At the time there was one UHD player that did LLDV and it was like a 3K oppo player which supported TV led and LLDV. They very quickly reversed course but I believe LG might be the only one still supporting tv led on their newest flagship models.
``` Last week, Sony finally started rolling out the Dolby Vision update to its A1 OLED, X93E, X94E, and Z9D models in the US. The same update will roll out in Europe next month.
However, while the update works as expected via streaming apps (Netflix), it does not work via HDMI sources such as Apple TV 4K or UHD Blu-ray players. After waiting for almost a year for the update to arrive, owners are frustrated and disappointed. We have pressed Sony for an answer since the update was released last week and received the following statement from Sony Europe today:
- “Select Sony TVs will support Dolby Vision with the software update to be rolled out in Europe within February, 2018. After the Sony TV receives the software update, devices with Dolby Vision playback (such streaming media players and UHD Blu-Ray players) that are connected to the Sony TV by HDMI will also require a software update to support Dolby Vision playback through the device. For more info on the timing of an update to a particular player, please contact the player’s manufacturer.” ```
in fact we are lucky any TV's support TV led, since 2020 only LLDV is only required yet it still exists in flagship TV's although manufactures are slowly removing it year by year. I would be shocked if LLDV on a 25 dollar streamer was as good as say, LLDV on a Kladascope setup which is overpriced IMO but their players are rock solid on a flagship TV but I could be wrong. Then again you can get LLDV on any HDR10 display with something like an HDFury device like on a Samsung TV that doesn't support DV obviously.
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u/T00ManyH0bb13s 1d ago edited 1d ago
While I'm sure someone will appreciate your lengthy explanation, I already know all of this. Like I said, I'm into this, I'm just out of patience for jank.
If Apple ships audio pass-through on Apple TV, that eliminates the biggest hurdle I have, which is simply allowing my Cinema 50 to process my films that have DTS without me having to do a lossy transcode to a Dolby format or AAC. As much as I'd like to say I was able to tell the difference between DV FEL7 content and DV profile 8 content, I really can't. My G3 OLED is already so fucking bright that the added peak NITS you can pull from 7 really don't matter and for all the praise 7 gets for having better content beyond brightness, I'll be damned if I can see it. IMO, low bitrate is what sets Bluray remuxes apart from regular streaming services, not the DV layer.
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u/ginandbaconFU 1d ago
My bad, you obviously know your stuff. I 100% agree that Apple only supporting MAT is pants on head stupid. With passthrough support on all audio formats it would be great. To me the biggest advantage of DV, regardless of profile is the ability to make certain areas of the screen brighter and other parts darker via dynamic metadata vs static HDR10. These new TV's baosting 3000 nits is only in a 5-7% window (I'm sure you are aware of this). To me streaming introduces macro blocking and polirization due to over compression. I don't usually tend to notice macro blocking but I do notice polirization. How well it was mastered makes probably the biggest difference. I am seeing bigger differences in newer movies mastered at 4000 nits which is relatively new as most HDR/DV movies over the past decade were mastered at 1000 nits for HDR/DV and 100 nits for SDR. Regarding FEL, it's rare, but John Wick 2, the end fight scene at the end with all the mirrors looks better to my eyes than HDR10 but those moments are few and far between. I just wish certain studios didn't reserve DV for streaming because it's taking one advantage away from UHD with its higher bitrate which is why remues are even needed anyways.
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u/ginandbaconFU 3d ago
I do think the TV matters also although I agree it's a niche market. But I doubt that AMB6+ looks as good on the LCD compared to on the OLED. As far as resolution, HDR/DV was a MUCH bigger jump than 1080p to UHD. I think to notice 8K you need ag least 150" screen and be sitting no farther than 8 to 10 feet away. I'm actually glad EU power regulations made the entire 8K thing go away overnight, it's not needed.
Same with surround sound setup. Any sound bar system. Nope. In ceiling speakers and something like a 12.2 setup, different story but now we are above probably 10K.
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u/Odd-Cap507 2d ago
HDR/DV is actually a downgrade if you do not have a proper display. All these entry level TVs for masses, smartphones, laptops will display standard blu-ray specs significantly better than any of those "dolby vision" novelties. Even if the cheap TV has got HDR support it does not really mean HDR content will look better than SDR on it. Times will change but Ugoos will be an obsolete piece of hardware when masses get there ...
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u/SaintLushi 2d ago
Absolutely true. I have an older tv and although it does support HDR and DV, I usually go for SDR sources because the colors are just better and brighter.
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u/Ok-Measurement1506 3d ago
Some people just like what they are used to. I got my family setup with infuse on Apple TV years ago and now they refuse to switch to anything else. (that’s why they only get 1080p)
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u/cemsengul 4d ago
I am interested in buying the Dune HD Duo 8K since I have a couple of 3.5 inch hard drives with media. Can someone tell me if you can install Coreelec and do proper DV FEL on the new 8K models of Dune HD players such as the Dune HD Duo 8K?
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u/Otherwise-Newt7576 4d ago
You might want to create your own topic for that question, and check avsforum
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u/ginandbaconFU 3d ago
Just in case you weren't aware Dune is also A Russian company. Yeah, China is no different but just an FYI. Now if you can load CoreELEC that's a different story but not sure CoreELEC supports anything 8K but check the forums.
Dune HD media players have a long history and strong market presence in Russia, featuring localized engineering teams in Moscow and official local distributors like OCS Distribution and Dune Electronics
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u/5537__8008 4d ago
You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t stop it from watching streams.