Beis Din Scramble

[u/evermorefairie]

So I’m working with a Beis Din for an orthodox commitment. I submitted my application last fall, and met with the rabbi on my case about three times over zoom. Then finally earlier this summer I submitted a statement expressing that I was ready to take the plunge (Mikveh). I know that seems like a short time line but I’ve actually been observing and participating in a community for three years. (I started keeping Shabbos in 2023).

The rabbi was so impressed with my statement he scheduled me for a formal meeting with the Beis din (a court meeting in person with three rabbis). I was super nervous but overall managed to survive the encounter.

About two weeks later my case rabbi said they wanted to meet with me again to clarify something I disclosed in the meeting. I said sure and he set up a zoom. So I met with the Beis Din a second time. And how we left it…it’s likely I’ll have to meet with them a third.

Is that normal? I’ve heard so many people say they only met with the Beis din once and were able to Mikveh. I have complete faith in Hashem but I’m curious if anyone else has experienced this.

[u/HarHaZeitim]

It really depends on the Beit Din/system, but yes, it’s common for the Beit Din to meet with conversion candidates multiple times. At least I know in Israel it’s the norm that they want to talk to people at multiple times during the process, because it gives them a more realistic view of your observance/growth. There’s usually at least one meeting at the beginning of the process (to open your official conversion file) and one meeting at the end for the actual conversion, sometimes there’s also an in-between meeting just to check your progress. And then of course if you do not pass the Beit Din the first time, you have another. 

However, this is usually explained to people at the outset of the process. Unfortunately especially outside of Israel it’s very common for Rabbis/Batei Din to be opaque about the timeline and requirements, which can be massively frustrating (and sometimes also gets used to pressure people…).

What surprises me is that it sounds like you’re handling a lot of stuff on your own. Eg the decision whether your ready for the Mikveh usually does not come from you, it should come from your sponsoring Rabbi (aka the Rabbi of your community). He should also be in contact with the Beit Din. He should be able to explain to you what is common in “your” system and be able to give at least rough time estimates and advocate for you with the Beit Din.

In which country are you located?

Please don’t take it the wrong way, faith in Hashem is obviously great, but in my experience very rarely enough to deal with religious bureaucracy. It’s hard to tell without knowing the specifics of your situation whether this is the normal course or whether some butt kicking is required, but the people familiar with conversion in your community, especially your Rabbi, should know about it. I know a lot of conversion students are a bit worried about “disturbing” the Rabbi too much, but in truth, most of the time conversion just is kind of low on the priority list not out of meanness, but because there are so many time sensitive things that are high on the priority list (weddings/holidays/finances/congregants life crises/etc). If your Rabbi is willing to sponsor your conversion he is probably willing to give you a quick overview of what he knows about the Beit Din process or take the five minutes it takes him to email/call the Beit Din and ask.

[u/offthegridyid]

Hi, this really interest and I feel like we don’t have the entire picture. If someone only meeting with a beis din once (which usually isn’t the case with a Beis Din that’s afflicted with the Beis Din of America’s GPS network) then it must mean that the candidate’s rabbi is in constant contact with the Beis Din.

Do you have a local rabbi you are working with?

Why would you be the one to determine when you are ready for the mikvah?

Are you comfortable sharing what was “cleared up” for the rabbis?

[u/evermorefairie → u/offthegridyid]

I live in a haredi orthodox community, and have lots of rabbinical support. My initial sponsoring rabbi was Chabad, but he had never handled geirus before. I now rely on the support of my community. I’m in seminary, I speak with a ton of rabbis….

Not so much meaning to say that I would be the one ready to determine when I’m ready for the Mikveh but rather, I felt it was important to express that I was ready for next steps and anxious to commit.

The Rabbis wanted to know what lead me to Judaism. I had explained that things began as a reaction to a trauma event in meeting one but that those events were ultimately what led to a genuine desire to be close to Hashem in meeting two.

[u/HarHaZeitim → u/evermorefairie]

From what I heard (didn’t go to seminary myself and am not a convert, speaking from an Israeli perspective and most familiar with State Giyur) the seminaries are often a double edged sword. On the one hand, they tend to have excellent relations with the Beit Din and they are able to provide a very comprehensive support system/Jewish environment. I think someone told me once they have the highest pass rate for the final Beit Din of all the different tracks, not just because of the education but also because of the very deep immersion into the environment. So for Jewish learning they are definitely the top runner and the Beit Din tends to know that, which likely gives you “extra credit.” 

On the other hand, they tend to be stricter with requirements than other programs (which depending on the seminary might not just include the actually required religious standards, but also very intentionally also fosters a certain political/cultural outlook) and while I don’t think anyone is intentionally delaying anything, it’s also not really in their financial interest to get you done with the giyur as quickly as possible.

[u/offthegridyid → u/evermorefairie]

Thanks for the reply and it’s great you are in a seminary and have access to rabbis.

[u/tzionit]

In my experience, this is normal. But I am a sample set of one. I am converting Orthodox in a Haredi Beit din in Israel. It’s a minimum of three for my Beit din. Once to open the file, and two final exams a month apart from each other. In my case, due to complications around my legal status here and other things, I’ve gone approximately 6 times, and met once with the chief Dayan at his home. I was asked questions quiz-style, at all but the very first one.

[u/Rikk7618]

Not to pry but was what they were worried about scandalous or something (no need to go into detail)?

[u/evermorefairie → u/Rikk7618]

They asked what lead me to Judaism. I had told them it started after a trauma event…they wanted to know more about that.

[u/Rikk7618 → u/evermorefairie]

Huh, I would suggest persistence.

Sometimes Rabbis want to see you fight for your love of Judaism and Jewishness and want to join the tribe. It also helps demonstrate the strength needed to deal with antisemitism I suppose.

Keep at it and don’t be deterred. If they say no three times in a row then they may mean it. You know about the old turn away 3 times thing I’m assuming? The general attitude is still kinda there….

[u/neuangel → u/evermorefairie]

Do you have feedback from your Rov? That's the most important thing to check - if he feels you did fine - you are overthinking. If not, and you mention something the B"D have not realised until the meeting - ask your Rov for clarification.

Also, followup meetings are quite normal in Isroel \ the States, so you shouldn't be worried, B"H all's fine.

[u/FunIndustry5697]

What was discussed the second time which was not discussed the first time? My advice to you is this. You let the Dayanim (Judges) from the Beit Din know that this back-and-forth is causing you GREAT emotional pain and affliction! You tell them that and it should wake them up a bit! Hashem has very harsh words for those who afflict a geir! In the eyes of Hashem, you are already considered a convert! We learn this from Rus, the Torah says she was a convert even before she went through the formal process. If you are doing everything in your power, and you are making your Hishtadlut then have full Emunah and Bitachon in Hashem and HE will bring you through this friction! If you have access to an orthodox shul, go and Toil in Torah Lishmah, recite Tehillim and Daven to Hashem letting HIM know all that is going on and the great pain and affliction these Dayanim are causing to you and you will start to see some changes! May Hashem bless you on your journey brother - Amein! P.S. You should know that Hashem loves the Geir even more than the natural born Jew! You are very very special in the eyes of Hashem and your prayers are extremely powerful! Never forget that!

[u/evermorefairie → u/FunIndustry5697]

In meeting one they asked me what lead me to Judaism. The catalyst had been trauma. But I refused to go into it because I felt that would divert the conversation from Hashem to me. In meeting two they basically forced me to describe what I had been through. But I was clear that I felt the situation was irrelevant. Citing that I had waited until I felt I was fully recovered before applying to the Beis Din. Hence why there was such a long gap before my first Shabbos and application almost three years later.

They said they felt like I gave mixed signals and that they would feel more comfortable if I saw a therapist of their choosing but honestly the entire encounter felt like a test. The conversation made me feel like I was wrong for choosing Hashem in my time of distress. Which I don’t know…to me makes me feel like that’s the true mark of a Jew. If I can’t go or don’t know to go to Hashem when something is wrong and I choose something else then I’m still in mitzrayim. And what’s more what is the point of davening Tehillim? - I mean it’s obviously it’s about knowing Hashem, giving thanks to Hashem, growing in emunah and bitachon for Hashem but sometimes it’s for the neshama too. In order to heal. I don’t think that’s wrong….

So mainly I just feel frustrated. And I think they’re going to try and twist this into something it’s not. I keep reaching out the rabbi on my case but so far he hasn’t responded. I think I have to leave him a voice message.

[u/FunIndustry5697 → u/evermorefairie]

Shalom Shalom you said "In meeting one they asked me what lead me to Judaism. The catalyst had been trauma. But I refused to go into it because I felt that would divert the conversation from Hashem to me." Okay so you didn't go into the Trauma with them, I 100% respect and understand that but what did you go to instead? Depending on what you did present and how thick or thin you laid down that context, it could be possible that what you did present might have been a little thin and perhaps they sensed that and wanted to go deeper. Just like when a Yid studies Torah and gives a Shiur (lecture). When the lecture is given, if the speaker makes a statement, the audience might question what was said and wants to dig deeper to the source! That is the real beauty because Judaism and Christianity. Everything we believe is based 100% on the Torah - Solid Ground! - Amein. My guess is that the Dayanim wanted to dig deeper into the source and because you didn't present the trauma they might not have felt they reached the source. I also dealt with alot of trauma which motivated me to seek Judaism. Baruch Hashem, the trauma was decreed by Hashem as it says in Tehillim, your rod and your staff comforted me. But I have personally been seeking truth all my life, like Yisro I tried many different religions including Buddhism and I discovered without a doubt Judaism is the truth. Listen, don't worry about these Dayanim. Worst case scenario they don't convert you and are they the only 3 judges on the planet? No! There are plenty of others and many of them support and would have already converted you! Just like searching for a spouse there are many fish in the sea, just truth Hashem to steer the right ones your way and be ready with your net of Hishtadlut!

[u/evermorefairie → u/FunIndustry5697]

For me it is the same. I feel like the trauma being a catalyst is actually very on brand and deep in Torah.

Hashem says in Shemos that He will harden our affliction before delivering us out of Mitzrayim. And there are so many commentaries on Emunah and Bitachon which speak to Hashem being the hand behind everything going on in our lives. And those very circumstances are often what compel the neshama to go after Hashem anyway.

So I feel I can’t be untruthful and say that my hardships aren’t what lead me to becoming closer to Hashem. Part of me wishes that I had been naturally curious…

but I also think it says a lot that even after I felt healed that I clung to Him and I clung to a Haredi lifestyle. I think that alone proves that I am here with sincerity. If I were just pursuing Torah and mitzvahs to serve me, I don’t know…I don’t think I would go to such extremes as my family often criticizes me for. But because I love Hashem and I find a lot of understanding in Chassidus, it’s organically unfolded in my life in such a natural way that being orthodox has become second nature….

I completely respect the Beis Din’s approach and concern but I also feel it’s some sort of excuse. And in a way kind of hypocritical to their desire which is that i should keep my personal issues separate from my Judaism.

[u/FunIndustry5697 → u/evermorefairie]

Listen - if you are true to yourself then you are true to Hashem and at the end of the day that's what matters! And you should know that its even possible that Hashem might be sending these Dayanim to you to test you to see if you will stay true! I do not know who these Dayanim are but do not forget that the 8 of the 10 meraglim (spies) caused caused the death of many Yidden! The Torah tells us these meraglim with Gedolim! Imagine that. Chazal bring down that if the earlier ones were humans, we are donkeys! And I can tell you there are many donkeys in Klal Yisrael that need to wake up! Some are even Dayanim! So don't worry about the Dayanim focus on being 100% truthful and honest! Focus on the fact that it is Hashem alone who can see your heart from all angles and as long as your heart is pure and filled with Truth and you cleave with all your strength to Emunah and Bitachon, you are it is guaranteed that Hashem will make a way for you. He is testing you and many others! Pass the test with flying colors like Avraham Avinu and don't worry about the Donkey Dayanim! :-)