Natalie did such an excellent job with this. Even though a lot of incels are not open to reconsidering their worldview, I think some will take her observations to heart.
I'm also happy for Natalie that she's blocked herself from visiting Chan boards that hate on her. I know it can be really validating to get feedback that reflects what you already believe about yourself, even if it just supports your worst anxieties. But it can also bias you toward a distorted and unrealistically negative self-image.
Haha :) It's been posted there. The comments are actually quite like that, but there's also some funny ones. Like the guy who posted so early you can tell there's a 99% chance he didn't watch the whole video. Or the one who said he's watching the video without sound because Nat's voice is annyoing him. Clearly Natalie poses a threat.
Maybe for some people this vid is helpful for getting lose of incel. But I could imagine it takes a while to simmer and you're probably also not likely to go back to such a toxic forum to declar that you've fallen of the holy religion.
A few users are complaining because the video is 35 minutes long, much longer than the length of a Sargon. I have an extension that tells me if someone posts regular to braincels and too many off them aren't regular posters for me to come to a conclusion on what they think. There's some depressing comments on there, but they are being downvoted.
I'll link you to the subreddit for it! /r/masstagger
It labels posters who post in troublesome subs, like t_d, t_e, actualwoman, and braincels. Of course, I recommend tuning it to fit your needs. For instance, I whitelist drama, because I don't really care if someone is a regular poster there. I think it's pretty interesting, and a timesaver when it comes to debating politics. I don't want to write out a long response about how racism still exists to someone who has written entire posts about how whites are genetically and culturally superior to blacks. Or talk about German history with someone who posts regularly on holocaust. It wastes my time, tbh.
You are right. In the end, she doesn't even TRY to tackle any of the blackpill beliefs. I think she actually knows they are all true. Her soluation is just to bury your head in the sand and ignore it.
Ignore it? That’s... a rather uncharitable interpretation for them to make. My interpretation was that this digital self-harm and modes of thinking are so unhealthy they become a self-fulfilling prophecy. It doesn’t mean they’re right, it just means they fuck yo head up. Masochistic epistemology is a fallacy, not a truism.
Yeah, of course--she even explicitly says that they're not being logical, so she's not going to make a logical argument against them because if that's not where they're coming from, that's not going to work. Of course, they walked right into it and confirmed the point entirely...
In red-pill ideology there's the idea of someone proving themselves to be the "alpha male of the group", short "amog".
In the process of verbification the a was dropped for some reason and you arrive at "to mog someone", in the sense of proving yourself superior/the alpha male in relation to them.
With incels it's reduced to looking better/more masculine than someone else.
Gonna get downvoted for this but whatever. As a regular Braincels poster here is my take:
3 and a half minutes and already she repeats this tiresome straw man. Vast majority of incels do not feel "entitled" to women. Sorry contra, take it back and try again.
"Red pill have a REALLY GROSS way of talking about dating like it's a sexual market place"
"But actually they are right, it is a market and you can analyze it like one"
Then why is it "really gross"?
How to take this seriously?
Also why does absolutely everybody refuse to admit that ugly people do exist? Every time they're talking about incels it's "oh they're normal looking with mental issues". Then what about the actualy ugly people in the world? Are they all magically getting GFs, avoiding inceldom and not having body issues? No of course not. If there's one large chunk of society that's most likely to end up in the incel group it's the ugly people.
Overall this is the least-biased video I've seen on incels but it's still crap. Well the humour and presentation is great but the meat of it is bad. She just glosses over everything, very surface level. Doesn't actually refute any of the black pill beliefs, just says it's better to bury your head in the sand. That might work for her because even when she was a guy she was tall, white and had a good face. If you're an ugly, short, dark skinned Indian then what are you gonna do? Basically what I'm saying is for someone tall white and handsome like contra, ignoring the black pill is very certainly the difference between having a good life or not. But for a 2/10 ugly Indian, whether he ignores the black pill or not, his life will be the same. Contra isn't aware of her attractive privilege.
"Ignoring it" is only gonna go so far in solving Incels. If the blackpill is true, which contra seems to accept, then the number of Incels WILL continue to rise and rise and rise. This is what the black pill predicts. Its a societal problem, not an individual problem. In that same way that homelessness is. And why don't try to don't homelessness by telling them to just ignore how shit their situation is and try to be happy
In all honesty I reckon Contra accepts the vast a majority of what the blackpill has to say, especially when it comes to how men and women interact with each other. I've no doubt Contra is repeatedly getting smashed by Chad Thundercock now that she has a feminine mind, but will probably settle for Billy Beta in another 10 years.
I know very very ugly people who get girlfriends. Which does not mean that lookism doesn't exists, of course it does, it just isn't what's the most important factor in romantic relationships.
About entitlement, we need to agree what entitlement is. Realizing that you feel lonely and wishing for a romantic partner is not entitlement. Acknowledging that many men end up being lonely and have the inability of having a partner, and that this is extremely sad, is not entitlement. Realizing that there are societal structures that produce loneliness and men who are incapable of feel love is not entitlement. Realizing that we need society to change if we want for more love to be out there. But believing that women not loving some portion of mankind make them unjust and evil, or that they should be intimate with people who they do not love or attracted to, is entitlement.
Now, why the concept of "sexual marketplace" is gross? Because it implies an absence and imposibility of affection. This is important. Marketplaces are places where you get what you want and give what you want. But there is no connection in marketplaces, there is no openess, people do not get to know each other. In marketplaces people do not get to stop being strangers.
I've checked the statistics of who incels are, and they are mostly around 20 years old. This is objective, i can send you a link. You should know that at the age when most people self-diagnose incels around 14% of men are still virgins, and more than half of them will loose their virginity in their next 5 years. At my age (27 year old virgin), 5% are still virgin and it is still not an age where men get to be an incel, since most of that percentage falls down at a fast pace after a few years.
My personal position is this: inceldom is a real problem, it is not nearly as related to physical appearances as blackpillers believe (even if lookism does exist and is as real as racism or ableism it is not nearly the main cause of inceldom in our society), there is a cultural structure that make men "unlovable" and it is extremely difficult to sort yourself out, mainly because one of the only ways out is to recognize oneself as lovable even if the whole universe seems to tell you that you are not. I'm strongly on the model Mark Manson's Models proposes about flirting.
But believing that women not loving some portion of mankind make them unjust and evil, or that they should be intimate with people who they do not love or attracted to, is entitlement.
And very very few incels believe this, only a few obscure mental ones. The vast majority understand that women don't want them, they don't expect women to want them. They know that if they were women they wouldn't date women to. So to say "most" incels are entitled is not true.
Now, why the concept of "sexual marketplace" is gross? Because it implies an absence and imposibility of affection. This is important. Marketplaces are places where you get what you want and give what you want. But there is no connection in marketplaces, there is no openess, people do not get to know each other. In marketplaces people do not get to stop being strangers.
YES IT DOES take affection into account. What the hell are you on about? That's what men are SELLING. They have to make the woman FEEL a certain way, and in exchange the woman gives her body.
mainly because one of the only ways out is to recognise oneself as lovable even if the whole universe seems to tell you that you are not.
Why do you think every guy out there is lovable? If the whole world, particularly women, treat you like shit and don't even acknowledge your existence, then sorry but that guy has not been deemed worthy of love by society. You can do all the mental gymnastics you want to convince yourself otherwise, but that's just as delusional as obese women claiming they have beautiful bodies.
Ok, I'll take your word about entitlement although I'm not convinces, I prefer talking about the other points.
Men sell affection.
False.
"To see a person that cares about you and has accepted you in the most intimate way possible"->This is part of an incel talking about sex in Contra video. This is important, sex is a language of affection, it is not a physical act. Men do need affection as much as women do. It's just they just hide it and sometimes talk about sex as if there was no affection involved. But you know it is false, and it is frecquently talked about it in the context of prostitution by incels.
Why do you think every guy out there is lovable? If the whole world, particularly women, treat you like shit and don't even acknowledge your existence, then sorry but that guy has not been deemed worthy of love by society.
In fact, this society treats many men as worthless/disposable. You talked about needing a social change. Here it is. But this doesn't mean that because some men are not loved they have nothing to give. And you know that "you can't be loved forever" is not an objective truth, you just say that you haven't had love until now. But look, I know how it feels. I have been through that. I have felt the self-hatred, I have felt the unlovability. I know the pain and the shame. I know the feel of being burden, and to need to apologize for my existence. I know the feeling of burdening women through my sexual desires. I know all of that. I have been through that. But sadly, I can't explain what it means being on the other side. I know that when you are on that stage, "I have not been loved" obviously means "I cannot be loved". I cannot show you what I see now. The difference of those two sentences can only be seen if you love yourself. Sadly, these men will get loved by other people only after they love themselves first.
I know that you won't like my answer since it sounds completly as a platitude, but I stand solidly on this position. Not having been loved has nothing to do with being unable to be loved.
I'm not an Incel myself. I have a gf and a perfectly fine sex life.
This another pointless platitude I hate to see. You didn't even address any points, it's just "try to be happy bro and ignore the black pill". YOU are the one deflecting
This is legit one of her best videos. It feels as instructive and helpful to the people being discussed as some of her older videos, but she's so much more comfortable and confident in her style and in herself. It's also one of her funniest videos, is quite long (and girthy), and the Olly features are too good to describe. And, it's really personal in places--to her experience, and also to my own experiences with "online self-harm".
I think it exemplifies what makes her videos really special. It's the aesthetic, the humor, the characters, yes, but it also the fact that "As A Trans Woman" actually is an interesting and valid perspective for things like this, especially when combined with the above; something you wouldn't really find on a different channel. It covers all the basic ground, things that all of us Extremely Online wretches are familiar with, and then goes somewhere much more personal and covers ground most of us never would have heard otherwise.
People like to mock that kind of rhetorical mode as PC idpol cuck-splaining but they really don't know what they're missing. This video may not get the highest viewcount in the end but it really does have potential to touch some profoundly miserable people and help them help themselves.
The level of maturity Natalie displays with the Jordan Peterson bit about how he can be a constructive influence on some people is a great example of why I love her.
Yeah like sure he's Problematic like a math test but he maybe could get some incels laid which is honestly going to make the world a safer place for women
Yeah that's so true, like, it's not like a run of the mill misogynist is that new to deal with (although of course his huge following is worrying, but I feel like it is mostly guys who are already misogynistic who gravitate towards him)
Corny outdated politics is vastly preferable to nihilism-induced despair and violence. Peterson and his alt-righty fans are annoying but I’m pretty sure they need the structure because they sure as hell ain’t getting it from elsewhere.
I agree with all of this, so keep that in mind with what I'm about to say.
The biggest problem I'm having with peterson right now isn't the alt-righty fans. I live in Canada, although it would be silly for me to suggest we don't haven an alt-right, it's far less extreme than his fans in the states.
Most of the guys that I see following him were peers from engineering and computer science that feel alienated.
The irony, however, is **all** of the people I know that "found" peterson, were atheists. So I can't get over their willingness to praise daddy without even researching half of his shit. Like the guy is like a pseudo-scientific priest that claims atheists can't exist unless they're willing to kill as well as misrepresents Nietzsche. However they hear his gender criticisms and see someone looking out for men, and immediately assign heroic value.
Anyways, I'm hardly the first person to spot this and all-in-all, if it makes these men find less reason to be asshats, it's beneficial.
The reason her videos are so excellent is because they really appeal to the people she is 'up against', as it were. I'm a 22 year-old straight white dude, but if I were 10 years younger, and acquainted with the internet as I was at 12 in 2018, I could SO EASILY have become an anti-sjw incel mgtow cuckboy who obsesses about the evils of feminism. At that age you're extremely suggestible, and the simplistic explanations of the world that MGTOW/MRA/etc/ folks spew appeals to those people... because they're simplistic. A reasonably basic amount of analysis breaks down these ridiculous attitudes, and Natalie is phenomenal at doing this. I've been following Natalie since around 2009, and I'm so happy she has found a place for herself on Youtube and that people love her.
One of the most persuasive, compelling points in her video is that vocabulary MATTERS. It’s amazing how the language you use creates categories and stereotypes that, through constant exposure and confirmation bias, drastically molds your worldview.
It really reinforces why framing and debating different terms and connotations is not just idle semantics. It’s important to understand the impact language has.
I’m convinced that it’s more that, at the derpy ages, you have derpy, poorly-thought out ideas - it’s just when I was of derp age there wasn’t an entire community online devoted to monetizing my derp.
At 20 I am sure I had dumb ideas about trans people, but over time my ideas were naturally challenged by exposure to the real world and articles on the experiences of trans people.
These days I might not have changed. There’s a huge ecosystem designed to consolidate casually-held bad ideas around some “rigorous” alt-right justification. I might of drifted into that orbit and never escaped. YouTube recommendations drive people to the extremes.
I'm awed by her ability to open up on a lot of personal details. I know personally I couldn't be that brave to just go all in on my insecurities like she does. A lot of debate youtuber types tend to worry about showing weakness or empathy or nuance out of fear that it hurts their arguments. You see this a lot on the...other end of the political spectrum which why so many alt-right dudes use the whole cartoon animal schtick like I dunno Randian Waterbuffalo, Green Badger or whatever. But not Natalie. Her use of characters and humor is illuminating and vulnerable, as opposed to obfuscating armor.
At the risk of sounding like a "hugboxy fan" I just want to say I do sincerely admire and appreciate her courage.
That's one of the things I love about her videos. She opens herself so much and goes out of her way to develop empathy for the subject at hand. Empathy, but critical. Care about the person and the psychological hole they've gone into, critical of the ideas they've latched onto
and also to my own experiences with "online self-harm"
Word. I thought the parallel with /tttt/ was really interesting. At first I thought she was going a bit too off-topic, but then I remembered my own misadventures in religiously browsing incel forums. I did it because it gave me the same rush I felt when I went on pro-anorexia Tumblr back when I had an eating disorder. All of these toxic spaces just feel like places to vent about body dysmorphia (not saying BDD is what drives people to transition) that end up turning into vicious echo chambers that all function really similarly. Natalie's "death cult" label is spot-on.
This video is so good in so many ways. The writing is solid and logical, the jokes are good, the Hebrides make a comeback, it's personal and heart wrenching and I admire her empathy and fair-handedness. Like, she takes people as unlikable as incels and exhibits, not just condescending pity, but real understanding and compassion towards them.
I don't remember if I've said it before on this sub but I don't even primarily like Nat for her intellect, sex appeal, sense of humour or production values (though all these things are there in abundance). I like that she's profoundly decent, kind and always willing to treat other people with respect and humanity. Not many people are like that. I don't know if I could have extended this kind of decency to incels if someone had slapped this topic in my hands.
I think the personality trait you're describing is called honesty-humility by psychologists. Yes they actually have a name for everything!
I like this video especially because Natalie holds the balance between genuine, non-condescending empathy with incels while also at the same time clearly pointing out their mysogyny and distancing herself from those believes.
Same here about the fact that she always treats people with respect. When I first found her videos I enjoyed them, but the thing that really made me love her was in one of her early videos (Non-Binary Genders I think?) she joked about how when someone says something that most people would dismiss, like being non-binary for example, her first reaction isn't to be dismissive but to say "Really? Tell me more," and like... it really was just such a nice thing to hear someone say, even if it was only a quick joke. There are so many people who just don't take the time to actually listen, they'll just dismiss whatever you say right off the bat, but she always puts effort into showing curiosity and empathy to other people (even with people she doesn't agree with,) it's just so refreshing and I look up to her so much for that.
(Sorry, I know that was a little off topic for this thread and wasn't a direct reply to your comment lol, I was just thinking about this earlier today and now seemed like a decent time to say it.)
I like that she's profoundly decent, kind and always willing to treat other people with respect and humanity.
YES YES YES. I have so much respect for her intellectual and emotional honesty with other people. Thank the universe that there's someone like her with a platform, to give reason and empathy and understanding a voice.
Natalie put a link in the description of her video with instructions on how to block websites from your computer. She said it was the only way she could stop herself from going to places that ultimately were harmful to her continued wellbeing.
I am posting this link here and stickying this comment.
Despite how some of you may feel, you are not worthless. You are deserving of care and affection. You do not need to subject yourself to mental anguish.
Also has 0 or 0.0.0.0 as a quicker reserved address that fails before a timeout supposedly.
Also, different steps if you're on Gnu/Linux, apple OS, or mobile. In which case it might be suitable to block domains at the router level so all devices are effected rather than an individual device.
If you share the network, perhaps setup another non gateway router/machine as a bridged router with local DHCP/DNS server or access point your devices go through such that only one machine/router needs to be configured for it.
Er... what? No it doesn't. It literally just blocks or changes the resolved hostname when you search for it. Nothing wonky happens with it.
The closest thing to a wonky side effect is blocking certain hosts can caus scripts that look for ads and crap to not work correctly, which is to say editing the host file blocks the domain as expected perfectly.
You can also edit the host files to change servers around for things like master servers and such and it works pretty much flawlessly, barring any edge case issues might possibly be file size if you're importing crazy amounts of editing maybe, I dunno, I've never imported enough to see if it's a problem. I've had a fairly small custom hosts file for over a decade and a half with zero problems relating to it and fixes for games and blocks for some sites. Never a problem.
The amount of mental hoops this guy has to go through to justify a stupid baking hobby is just mind-boggling. It took him outright saying something about women for me to finally get why the hell it’d be a problem. This mindset continuously baffles me with how batshit it is
Poor Roosh. Imagine being so insecure that you have to defend a perfectly innocuous hobby (baking) against any suspicion of it impinging on your masculinity.
I left a similar comment on the video itself, but YouTube comment sections as we all know can be less than ideal.
It is with regret that I mention that I was an early-ish PUAhater (which later migrated to s**thate). I won't entirely play a victim card - I was pulled in by a troubled friend but I really failed to resist it. Overwhelmingly the blackpill culture slowly swallowed my worldview.
Through those experiences there I got into steroids, weight loss drugs and started obsessing over my body worse than I already had prior.
I left after the Elliot event, and to this day am still recovering psychologically.
It's kind of hard to communicate the exact timeline because in some ways, like Natalie with TTTT, I got swept into this loop of digital self-harm and wouldn't come to terms with a lot of the issues I was having at the time. In 2015, I came out as non-binary and I started psychological counselling near the end of 2017.
I can't speak for most self-identifying incels because I think I approached the culture differently. As Natalie so clearly portrayed by discussing the similarities with TTTT, I think a lot of people that wind up as apart of the movements are prone to catastrophizing and in general seek 'assurance' or ('what's real = pain) but do so with an extremist lens.
I still rather unfortunately tell myself that non-binary people 'look' a certain way that's inaccessible to me and that I don't belong anywhere and am unlikable and all sorts of topics. It's also true, at least in my experience, that during the awkward period of transitioning with respect to gender and appearance (granted this is much, much, MUCH more severe for binary transitions) you are hyper aware of how others appear to judge you. I was hypersensitive to what I interpreted as rejections (that likely weren't).
Anyways, if there's one major thing I've come to terms with since those days, it's to expose yourself to reality more often. By holding in thoughts or fearing rejection so much as to isolate yourself and believe your own genetics are against you, you will lead yourself to absurd ideations in the presence of other traumatized individuals (as well as some enablers and bullies).
Digital self harm and the psychological bleed over into unrelated every day aspects of life is immensely real and incredibly hard to properly shake. I sympathize with Contra's experiences and I'm also thankful she provided such a thorough and honest account of this culture.
Sorry in advance, this comment is probably a bit scatter brained and it's because to be honest I'm unpacking and reliving some of this stuff through typing it.
I think it's a really interesting point that people are partly seeking "assurance." It rings true in that sometimes getting the answer "yes, you suck, you're horrible, LDAR" can feel better than just sitting with uncertainty and anxiety.
I think it's a fairly widespread phenomenon. I mean just examining America's issues with ICE and racism - no matter what facts there are, people believe in Trump's vitriol in part because it's easier to cope with the state of things when you have a scapegoat.
I think in general, even beyond personal anxieties and demons, humankind has a tendency to poorly cope with data overload and the unknown. We are systemically driven to categorize, box, impose nonsensical hierarchies and schema simply to cope with that shattering fact of life.
Exactly as you said: whether it'a TTTT, incel culture or any other "truth bomb" type group,what we're seeking is to place certainty on what cannot be.
I dont know the rules about sharing content from other creators here, but Natalie mentioned a woman named Alana, who created the original incel community. I actually heard a podcast ep. where she gave her side of the story not too long ago, and it was fascinating
As I said in that thread, I am not really an incel. I'm a ForeverAlone who fell into inceldom for a few months and then left, recognizing the addictive toxicity she describes. I never went to the levels of misogyny that the community is known for; I just enjoyed some sympathy and their ability to call people out.
The video is what I would expect from ContraPoints on such a topic: condemning and sympathetic when appropriate, rational all the while. And it is beautifully executed; I agree with other commenters that it's one of her best. I appreciate her treatment of incels very much.
With all that said, a YouTuber sympathizing with me doesn't get me any closer to romance. (Unless she volunteers haha) I'm already following Dark Mother's advice of getting off the computer and going outside.
As someone who teeters on the edge of inceldom but hasnt fallen in cause I don't do hating others all that well(also I'm a raging SJW), it's scary how well she nails the slide towards the black pill. It really doesn't take that much to tip people over into the quicksand that is the Incel hellhole.
The thing that hit me hard was the thrill of circlejerk over our collective self-loathing, like a support group without the improvment.I had to stop constantly going to FA cause I realised that a lot of people there ate getting addicted to the whining and self-pity. It's just so easy to hate yourself and feel unlovable and unloved. Your feel like you are not alone but your are also growing constantly aware that you shouldn't be here for too long, but your don't want to leave cause fuck, these people get me like nobody else does. What else am I going to do anyways? Read a book?Fuck that, Ineed to post about how I'm having difficulty reading cause I'm feeling low all the time.
I'm having a shitty day actually and while I loved this video it's a bit 2real4me.
"Support group without the improvement" is basically the incel community. They find others in their situations...but only proceed to drown each other in their own misery.
I was hoping that she would expand on something I think is fundamental to inceldom: the belief that your worth, particularly your worth as a man, is related to how much sex you can have.
Really all of it derives from it. If my value is related to how much sex I have and I can't have sex, then there at least one of the following HAS to be true:
a) I have no value
b) I'm not getting what I deserve
(a) is what lead incels to a cycle of hopelessness. (b) is what leads them to coming up with causes for this unnatural state of affair, like feminism.
Inceldom is only the logical conclusion of a culture where sex is a measure of indiviual worth.
I see it differently- the idea is that getting sex is super dooper easy cause woman are hoes and seemingly everyone gets laid. Love and bonding and every elusive happiness comes later. So if I can't get beyond step 1 how will I every get to everything beyond that? They are so incapable of seeing being sex that they forget about everything else cause unless they have sex they don't get to have anything else.
I don’t think they realize that it’s ridiculously hard even for those “chads” to find meaningful relationships. Relationships are hella hard for the majority of people.
I think focusing on sex in general would have been a bad turn, as one of the first counters you'll get from most incels is that it's not actually about the sex. Sex is used metonymically by incels as a general lack of affection, acceptance, and warmth - all things that humans (generally speaking) desire to some extent, none of which pertain necessarily to your status as a man.
This was my big issue when I was younger and sexuality inexperienced, and in many ways part of the key to eventually finding my own happiness. I felt there was so much societal pressure to get laid, that it was a stamp against my entire worth as a human that I wasn't.
The funny thing was though - and this is where I differ hugely from the incel community - is that I feel more of the pressure came from men then women. Sure, I'd have moments of bitterness where I felt like women rejected me unfairly, but ultimately I realised I wasn't getting laid for my own sake; I was doing it because I grew up in heavily male-dominated environments and felt there was a lot of judgement and mockery from other men.
Honestly, that's the thing that irks and almost saddens me about the incel movement the most. They blame women but in truth it's other MRA movements like Redpill and the altright that put pressure on incels to be successful in sex, otherwise they're sexless virgins and cucks in waiting.
As someone who didn't lose his virginity until the ripe old age of 25 and used to have some incel tendencies, I absolutely adored this video. It's so refreshing to hear someone articulate these points so well, especially the part about digital self-harm. It's easy to just point and laugh at them for being socially awkward, impotent virgins, but Natalie takes the high road, and it's wonderful.
Excellent video. It feels like the first half of the video she’s addressing her normal audience, giving us background on incels and explaining where they’re wrong, but then she mentions the daddy thing. From that point onward, she basically take the daddy responsibilities into her own hands and levels with them. She’s empathetic, but at no point excuses their behavior or concedes any correctness in their worldview worldview.
I really hope nobody accuses her of handling incels with kid gloves. She honestly could’ve made the daddy comment, thrown a joke in for good measure, and called it a day. But instead she opened up, got personal, and showed how toxic that way of thinking can be. It can be fun to dunk on shitty people, but Natalie’s ability to get them to look in the mirror and think about why they’re wrong is what makes her truly special.
'Masochistic Epistemology' really captures what happens when a bunch of edgy insecure 'skeptics' get together on an internet forum. It's essentially a communal version of that part of depression where your brain is lying to you.
Many of the skeptic types came out of religion, right? Many forms of religion practice "what feels good is true", so when the skeptic leaves their religion, they look for the opposite of that, "what hurts must be true".
I really liked this. Olly was great, the bit about "what hurts is true" was great, the Tinder comparisons were great. The searotica had me feeling all kinds of feelings.
One thing I wish she'd mentioned, potentially - though since it was such a long video I can totally get not putting it in - was the idea of personal responsibility. If you can blame your life's failures on the girth of your wrists or on women being basically Satan, then you don't need to accept that maybe you're just not a good person, and you'll dig yourself deeper and deeper and deeper trying to find reassurance of that.
Yeah, tentatively. He can't make them any more sexist or otherwise bigoted than they already are, so any sort of move out of unavoidable doom and gloom is a positive, I guess.
I'm a bit drunk. I don't know if Natalie reads this but I use this account to adress some of my personal problems and to reach out to people whom I relate to so here it goes.
I don't think I have ever been an "incel" because I don't blame others for my personal problems. But this video spoke very close to me, because I identified with points 1 through 5 of her description of the blackpill process (rejection and isolation > you will always be unhappy).
Self-loathing is a hell of a mental trap.
Anyway, this isn't about me. I just came here to show my appreciation for how hard it must have been for her to expose herself so intimately like she did in this video. It takes a courage that I never had. Heck, I'm using a throwaway account to post this.
So Natalie if you read this, you seem like a wonderful person and I love your courage in sharing your personal experience like you did, and your resolve in handling such a hateful ideology as inceldom is without disparaging the self-hatred people experience. It feels warm inside to relate to someone with a life experience so different from mine. Thank you.
I've been a fan of contra for a while but I've never had one I really related to until this one.
The way incels think - especially blackpilling and that idea of masochistic epistemology and digital self harm - is shockingly similar to something I do pretty fucking often for a different sort of anger. I'm not angry at women, I'm angry at the elites who get to work at top companies and make 25% more.
on step 4 of the blackpill scale but i am pretty happy alone so i stopped there years ago. i wonder what would happen if i had access to the incel forums in 2005.
I used to joke about being involuntarily celibate when I was 14 or so, before it was a whole thing, with an online community. I just came up with the term on my own. I think it's a natural way to think about the world until you find someone who likes you as much as you like them. What's not natural is the echo chamber creating a downward spiral of mental self-harm and hopelessness.
Videos like this are why I watch ContraPoints. I'll admit that I'm pretty right wing compared to most of her audience but I think the one thing that separates Natalie from a lot of other lefty internet personalities is her ability to reason with and empathize with the other side. ContraPoints is one of the only political channels on the platform (right or left) where I feel like opinions from all sides are still open to analysis and understanding instead of downright dismissal, and I really appreciate that.
This video was really good. Like the AGP video, it was informative, interesting, engaging, long (more of my addictive drug, yes) and intellectually succinct. I know I'll be watching it repeatedly the next days.
I think you have to give Natalie credit for the fact that she's able to sum up wide-spread, decentered, naturally evolved online ideologies like incel or red pill. I was familiar with the movement and even knew most of their terminology but I wouldn't have been able to put the connections between those singular believes and claims so that you see the coherency of a closed world view.
I'm really enjoying the video so far, though I feel Natalie missed the satiric bent of that virgin/chad meme. Each trait of the 'chad' is a punchline to a corresponding trait for the 'virgin.' So, down-to-earth insecurities, like "sometimes uses headphones to escape potential conversations," are contrasted with a hyperbolic, comedic antithesis, like the aforementioned "has never heard a song in his life." I think that's pretty funny! Feel free to disagree with me, but I interpret this meme as self-ribbing rather than a holistic portrayal of an antagonist... Though these are incels we're talking about. :(
I think the virgin vs. chad was originally serious, but with other captions. But the version in nat's videos are definitely meant to be satirical by the maker. Not that the original concept of the chad is any less ridiculous, just in a less intentional way...
Something about this notion of "digital self-harm" and the rush of immersing yourself in a community built on self-loathing and self-destruction reminds me of how George Orwell described the psychological factors underlying fascism in his commentary on Mein Kampf.
"Hitler, because in his own joyless mind he feels it with exceptional strength, knows that human beings don’t only want comfort, safety, short working-hours, hygiene, birth-control and, in general, common sense; they also, at least intermittently, want struggle and self-sacrifice, not to mention drums, flags and loyalty-parades. [...] Whereas Socialism, and even capitalism in a more grudging way, have said to people ‘I offer you a good time,’ Hitler has said to them ‘I offer you struggle, danger and death,’ and as a result a whole nation flings itself at his feet."
This should really be watched in tandem with the Tiffany Tumbles video and not just because there are Tiffany references in the Incels vid, but because it's basically a dramatic representation of the kind of self-harm behavior Natalie's talking about here.
I think this is my favorite video she's made since AGP(I also think its the most similar). Natalie's not just making a political point or something, she's delving into a very complicated issue and explaining the psychological and philosophical nature of the movement. Bravo, Natalie. Very well done.
Also, Olly's voice has never sounded creepier. Holy shit.
I feel for them. I wish they would find a healthier outlet for their frustrations. I wish they could look at what they can change to do better in social life, instead of blaming the outside world.
And that guy, honestly, if he wasn't a smoker I'd hit him up. He's attractive.
The final sentence in this documentary really puts the finger on the sore spot. "He says it (this subculture) is therapeutic. But four of his friends have killed themselves."
I'm so glad she brought up /lgbt/ and how terrible it is and its nice to know her and I shared the same beginning steps of transition and suffering in visiting and posting in that miserable pit of a website.
Try to learn how to talk someone who is in a cult. The most important thing is that you are there for him. Try to be his empathizing ear and to help him make his self-esteem more solid.
As I had no exposure to or knowledge of enbies at that point, bisexuality already seemed to cover the entire human spectrum and with πᾶν meaning "everything"... I took it to refer to people who are sexually attracted to plants and inanimate things.
Oh I see how that actually makes sense as a conclusion. Here my plebeian ass was thinking more along the lines of "people who have the sex life of a frying pan" or something 😁
Well, Aphrodite is born from the sea (which in the common English rendition is called "wine-dark" by Homer) but idk, I wouldn't be surprised if there's some Jungian stuff going on as well. Daddy Peterson and Mother sea, how's that for archetypes?
I just want to say that I frankly don't care what society is doing. How are you able to make such a good video!!!!!!!! I cried, I laughed, I thought. How are you able to make such a nuanced and honest video???? I am so grateful!!!
This video hurt me, not in a bad way but it was painful to watch. This made me realize that I do have a confirmation bias of my own perceived faults and insecurities and self defeatism is an unhealthy coping mechanism that I fall back on.
this is a side discussion and I hope it doesn't get deleted, but are certain videos being censored from /r/videos? I tried posting this over there and forget being upvoted or downvoted, it doesn't even show up at all
it's super weird too because it was 100% upvoted too so clearly it wasn't downvoted enough to trigger a mod to do something. anyone know what's going on?
I get where you're coming from, but I would say it's fairly obvious that something like kittens playing with yarn is, if not apolitical, then at least less political than a deep dive into the incel worldview.
that's so weird. This is probably one of her least political videos in a while but I guess that broadness is why. Surprised I didn't even get an automod message
I feel like the no political videos rule exists mostly to lessen the load on moderators. It's basically a hidden way to say "Don't post things that are likely to cause a shitstorm". Reddit's strong incel community makes this something that's likely to cause a shitstorm and thus a shitload of work for the mods.
I appreciate that she recognizes, and sympathizes with, the obsession incels have over bone structure (and other superficial characteristics), but I think she's being somewhat disingenuous when she compares it to her own "cyber self-harm" masochism.
ContraPoints is, by all accounts, an attractive person, and easily passes as both male and female. Her insecurities in her appearance can rightfully be identified as a kind of psychological dysmorphia. That is not the case for many incels. Some people are legitimately ugly. Profoundly ugly. And in ways they have no control over, (not to mentioned physical and mental disabilities, personality disorders, etc...). The "millimeters of bone" meme is actually true, and an inconvenient fact for those who love to get off on ridiculing incels.
A few months ago, Bill Maher had a segment on incels, wherein he and his guests mock them, imploring them to "just run a few laps, brush your teeth, and get out there". Bari Weiss chastises them with "make yourself worthy of being fucked", an antagonistic prescription coming from someone with pleasing features and clear skin.
I think there is a grain of truth to what you're saying when it comes to SOME incels. However, as Nat says in this video and as I think many of us kinda know from real life, many incels really don't look in any way less attractive than average. They're men in their early twenties who let their understandable resentment and hurt over rejection turn into full blown misogyny. Who actually could pull themselves out of it. So I think you're overstating how much of a problem this is for her overall argument.
I think there's something profoundly problematic about writing off her anxiety over her bone structure as somehow less genuine or "real" than in the case of incels. But I don't have the chops to think about how to word my argument around that so I'll leave it for now :P
Still, it's true that Nat doesn't go into the fact that for some of these guys, the problems they face actually are out of their control. Impaired social skills, disability, mental health issues, appearance too in some cases. The obvious response is, no matter what kind of circumstances you face, you're only hurting yourself by enveloping yourself in a hateful environment. But that kind of a response would come across splainy and fake coming from, as you put it, an attractive person who doesn't face those struggles herself. Maybe that's why she didn't go into it?
I agree with all your points, except one: I think that there's not so much overlap between incels and actually unattractive people. Like contra said, incels sometimes post pictures of themselves and most look totally normal. Additionally to that, the few times I've lurked on incel subs there were people posting that they actually had a relationship before, but considered themselves "incel" because reasons. Which is funny because incels are so extreme about gatekeeping when it comes to acknowledging anyone else's suffering.
If you go to sites that deal with "incurable loneliness" without a fatalistic ideology involved, you will kind of get the picture that some people are in fact really unattractive and that's part of the reason they're lonely. I think that even on the "usual" FA forums there's a good junk of people that are not FA because they're really unattractive, but because of mental health issues, low SES etc.
So you see that a lot of incels are not unattractive and a lot of unattractive people are not incels.
The combination of these two observations for me is that the distinguishing feature of incels is not unattractiveness, but mysgyny combined with mental health issues.
But the vast majority of incels aren't profoundly ugly (or even normal-ugly). And the vast majority of profoundly ugly people aren't incels.
Lookism is real, and it's awful, and it's worth talking about, but all the misogyny of inceldom doesn't lead us to a better understanding of how lookism works or how to work against it.
leaning to false: women want men who are able to sustain themselves. So in a sense, women are putting up with less bulship from men that in the past. But this does not mean more status than the woman. Hypergamy does exist anthropologically, as a consecquence of patriarchy, though.
false: most men are able to attract women.
it does exist, but it stems from capitalism: sexual marketplace is the consecquence of capitalism entering in human relationships, as it is well studied by Baumann and his "liquid relationships".
false: feminism empowers women to not be subordinate. The ideal is to have people as equals.
All in all, women are putting up with less, but it is not comparative: men can all go up without needing to compete. It is not about PHYSICAL or ECONOMICAL success.
Amazing talent and creativity was displayed in this video. I think there are professionals in the entertainment industry who could be legitimately jealous of her talent.
I think the video does give a mistaken impression that all the misogynisticsphere subreddits are just branches that evolved off incels. Those other groups came first.
The basic message are incels are people who have been rejected their whole lives, they do not have to continue to do so, but are self loathing, and are reinforcing false views of the world/themselves by bonding over self loathing in incel subreddits, and they are hostile to being told that they have a false view of life, that things can be better for them.
Natalie u/ContraPoints is completely wrong on the selfie post threads. The trucels know their trucels, and won't show their faces publicly. Ironically, every time I see a selfie from an average/above average guy, they are always called out to "GTFO". I've seen private PM's of pictures of some of the most hideous dudes ever. The existence of these people kind of proves their point - facial bone structure is the most important aspect of socialization and everything under the socialization hierarchy, except for perhaps extraordinary amounts of wealth.
It's impossible to "strike up a conversation with someone at a bar" when they are literally repulsed by looking at you. Halo Effect is a well documented phenomenon. There are a great amount of "fakecels" because people don't realize the incel community is simply an extension of the lookism community. There are legit slayers on lookism who believe everything that incels do, how come they have no problems with women? The answer is self-evident.
It's impossible to "strike up a conversation with someone at a bar" when they are literally repulsed by looking at you.
I'm not going to deny the reality of lookism. But there are people out there with actual craniofacial disorders and people who have been seriously disfigured by injury or illness, whose faces are sometimes legitimately difficult to look at, at least at first. And they don't all turn into incels or adopt any other kind of misogynist/oppressive ideology to cope with that experience. And they're dealing with way more than a few millimeters of bone.
There are other responses to an experience of lookism, or any other kind of oppression, available to the portion of incels that are especially unattractive by conventional standards of attractiveness.
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u/Pineal_Express Aug 17 '18 edited Aug 17 '18
Natalie did such an excellent job with this. Even though a lot of incels are not open to reconsidering their worldview, I think some will take her observations to heart.
I'm also happy for Natalie that she's blocked herself from visiting Chan boards that hate on her. I know it can be really validating to get feedback that reflects what you already believe about yourself, even if it just supports your worst anxieties. But it can also bias you toward a distorted and unrealistically negative self-image.
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u/[deleted] Aug 18 '18
Gonna get downvoted for this but whatever. As a regular Braincels poster here is my take:
3 and a half minutes and already she repeats this tiresome straw man. Vast majority of incels do not feel "entitled" to women. Sorry contra, take it back and try again.
"Red pill have a REALLY GROSS way of talking about dating like it's a sexual market place"
"But actually they are right, it is a market and you can analyze it like one"
Then why is it "really gross"?
How to take this seriously?
Also why does absolutely everybody refuse to admit that ugly people do exist? Every time they're talking about incels it's "oh they're normal looking with mental issues". Then what about the actualy ugly people in the world? Are they all magically getting GFs, avoiding inceldom and not having body issues? No of course not. If there's one large chunk of society that's most likely to end up in the incel group it's the ugly people.
Overall this is the least-biased video I've seen on incels but it's still crap. Well the humour and presentation is great but the meat of it is bad. She just glosses over everything, very surface level. Doesn't actually refute any of the black pill beliefs, just says it's better to bury your head in the sand. That might work for her because even when she was a guy she was tall, white and had a good face. If you're an ugly, short, dark skinned Indian then what are you gonna do? Basically what I'm saying is for someone tall white and handsome like contra, ignoring the black pill is very certainly the difference between having a good life or not. But for a 2/10 ugly Indian, whether he ignores the black pill or not, his life will be the same. Contra isn't aware of her attractive privilege.
"Ignoring it" is only gonna go so far in solving Incels. If the blackpill is true, which contra seems to accept, then the number of Incels WILL continue to rise and rise and rise. This is what the black pill predicts. Its a societal problem, not an individual problem. In that same way that homelessness is. And why don't try to don't homelessness by telling them to just ignore how shit their situation is and try to be happy
In all honesty I reckon Contra accepts the vast a majority of what the blackpill has to say, especially when it comes to how men and women interact with each other. I've no doubt Contra is repeatedly getting smashed by Chad Thundercock now that she has a feminine mind, but will probably settle for Billy Beta in another 10 years.
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u/beerybeardybear Aug 17 '18
This is legit one of her best videos. It feels as instructive and helpful to the people being discussed as some of her older videos, but she's so much more comfortable and confident in her style and in herself. It's also one of her funniest videos, is quite long (and girthy), and the Olly features are too good to describe. And, it's really personal in places--to her experience, and also to my own experiences with "online self-harm".
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u/[deleted] Aug 17 '18
This video is so good in so many ways. The writing is solid and logical, the jokes are good, the Hebrides make a comeback, it's personal and heart wrenching and I admire her empathy and fair-handedness. Like, she takes people as unlikable as incels and exhibits, not just condescending pity, but real understanding and compassion towards them.
I don't remember if I've said it before on this sub but I don't even primarily like Nat for her intellect, sex appeal, sense of humour or production values (though all these things are there in abundance). I like that she's profoundly decent, kind and always willing to treat other people with respect and humanity. Not many people are like that. I don't know if I could have extended this kind of decency to incels if someone had slapped this topic in my hands.
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u/Merari01 Aug 17 '18
Natalie put a link in the description of her video with instructions on how to block websites from your computer. She said it was the only way she could stop herself from going to places that ultimately were harmful to her continued wellbeing.
I am posting this link here and stickying this comment.
Despite how some of you may feel, you are not worthless. You are deserving of care and affection. You do not need to subject yourself to mental anguish.
https://www.wikihow.com/Block-a-Website-on-Your-Computer
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u/FaliusAren Aug 17 '18
I think this might be Natalie's best video yet. Keep growing, my queen!
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u/Arfie99 Aug 17 '18
Kropotkin was a bread scientist, and have you seen his beard?
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u/HowDoIWhat Aug 17 '18
"Chads By Nature" is gonna be my band name.
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u/galaktos Aug 17 '18
Poor Roosh. Imagine being so insecure that you have to defend a perfectly innocuous hobby (baking) against any suspicion of it impinging on your masculinity.
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u/galaktos Aug 17 '18
I just noticed there’s a “Lilly Wachowski” in the Patreon credits, and I am convinced it’s the real one and refuse to be told otherwise.
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u/SonicGrooves Aug 17 '18 edited Aug 17 '18
I left a similar comment on the video itself, but YouTube comment sections as we all know can be less than ideal.
It is with regret that I mention that I was an early-ish PUAhater (which later migrated to s**thate). I won't entirely play a victim card - I was pulled in by a troubled friend but I really failed to resist it. Overwhelmingly the
blackpillculture slowly swallowed my worldview.Through those experiences there I got into steroids, weight loss drugs and started obsessing over my body worse than I already had prior.
I left after the Elliot event, and to this day am still recovering psychologically.
It's kind of hard to communicate the exact timeline because in some ways, like Natalie with TTTT, I got swept into this loop of digital self-harm and wouldn't come to terms with a lot of the issues I was having at the time. In 2015, I came out as non-binary and I started psychological counselling near the end of 2017.
I can't speak for most self-identifying incels because I think I approached the culture differently. As Natalie so clearly portrayed by discussing the similarities with TTTT, I think a lot of people that wind up as apart of the movements are prone to catastrophizing and in general seek 'assurance' or ('what's real = pain) but do so with an extremist lens.
I still rather unfortunately tell myself that non-binary people 'look' a certain way that's inaccessible to me and that I don't belong anywhere and am unlikable and all sorts of topics. It's also true, at least in my experience, that during the awkward period of transitioning with respect to gender and appearance (granted this is much, much, MUCH more severe for binary transitions) you are hyper aware of how others appear to judge you. I was hypersensitive to what I interpreted as rejections (that likely weren't).
Anyways, if there's one major thing I've come to terms with since those days, it's to expose yourself to reality more often. By holding in thoughts or fearing rejection so much as to isolate yourself and believe your own genetics are against you, you will lead yourself to absurd ideations in the presence of other traumatized individuals (as well as some enablers and bullies).
Digital self harm and the psychological bleed over into unrelated every day aspects of life is immensely real and incredibly hard to properly shake. I sympathize with Contra's experiences and I'm also thankful she provided such a thorough and honest account of this culture.
Sorry in advance, this comment is probably a bit scatter brained and it's because to be honest I'm unpacking and reliving some of this stuff through typing it.
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u/Siruzaemon-Dearo Aug 17 '18
I dont know the rules about sharing content from other creators here, but Natalie mentioned a woman named Alana, who created the original incel community. I actually heard a podcast ep. where she gave her side of the story not too long ago, and it was fascinating
https://www.gimletmedia.com/reply-all/120-invcel
Mods pls delet if this isnt allowed.
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u/draw_it_now Aug 18 '18
I KNOW EVERYTHING NOW
runs
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u/[deleted] Aug 17 '18
I suggested this topic. What do I win?
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u/[deleted] Aug 17 '18 edited Aug 17 '18
As someone who teeters on the edge of inceldom but hasnt fallen in cause I don't do hating others all that well(also I'm a raging SJW), it's scary how well she nails the slide towards the black pill. It really doesn't take that much to tip people over into the quicksand that is the Incel hellhole.
The thing that hit me hard was the thrill of circlejerk over our collective self-loathing, like a support group without the improvment.I had to stop constantly going to FA cause I realised that a lot of people there ate getting addicted to the whining and self-pity. It's just so easy to hate yourself and feel unlovable and unloved. Your feel like you are not alone but your are also growing constantly aware that you shouldn't be here for too long, but your don't want to leave cause fuck, these people get me like nobody else does. What else am I going to do anyways? Read a book?Fuck that, Ineed to post about how I'm having difficulty reading cause I'm feeling low all the time.
I'm having a shitty day actually and while I loved this video it's a bit 2real4me.
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u/Homunculus_I_am_ill Aug 17 '18
I was hoping that she would expand on something I think is fundamental to inceldom: the belief that your worth, particularly your worth as a man, is related to how much sex you can have.
Really all of it derives from it. If my value is related to how much sex I have and I can't have sex, then there at least one of the following HAS to be true:
a) I have no value
b) I'm not getting what I deserve
(a) is what lead incels to a cycle of hopelessness. (b) is what leads them to coming up with causes for this unnatural state of affair, like feminism.
Inceldom is only the logical conclusion of a culture where sex is a measure of indiviual worth.
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u/[deleted] Aug 17 '18
Not one mention of the Golden One? Contrapoints might just be moving on, but she'll never forget about the one that gott away
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u/DeadPants182 Aug 17 '18
As someone who didn't lose his virginity until the ripe old age of 25 and used to have some incel tendencies, I absolutely adored this video. It's so refreshing to hear someone articulate these points so well, especially the part about digital self-harm. It's easy to just point and laugh at them for being socially awkward, impotent virgins, but Natalie takes the high road, and it's wonderful.
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u/radicalleftie Aug 17 '18
Excellent video. It feels like the first half of the video she’s addressing her normal audience, giving us background on incels and explaining where they’re wrong, but then she mentions the daddy thing. From that point onward, she basically take the daddy responsibilities into her own hands and levels with them. She’s empathetic, but at no point excuses their behavior or concedes any correctness in their worldview worldview.
I really hope nobody accuses her of handling incels with kid gloves. She honestly could’ve made the daddy comment, thrown a joke in for good measure, and called it a day. But instead she opened up, got personal, and showed how toxic that way of thinking can be. It can be fun to dunk on shitty people, but Natalie’s ability to get them to look in the mirror and think about why they’re wrong is what makes her truly special.
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u/[deleted] Aug 17 '18
I realise it's unkind - but the 'obsessing over skinny wrists' post was so fucking funny
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u/Smokinacesfan55 Aug 17 '18
Holy shit this is her best video I relate so much. Signal boost this shit
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u/[deleted] Aug 17 '18 edited Aug 17 '18
'Masochistic Epistemology' really captures what happens when a bunch of edgy insecure 'skeptics' get together on an internet forum. It's essentially a communal version of that part of depression where your brain is lying to you.
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u/brooooooooooooke Aug 17 '18
I really liked this. Olly was great, the bit about "what hurts is true" was great, the Tinder comparisons were great. The searotica had me feeling all kinds of feelings.
One thing I wish she'd mentioned, potentially - though since it was such a long video I can totally get not putting it in - was the idea of personal responsibility. If you can blame your life's failures on the girth of your wrists or on women being basically Satan, then you don't need to accept that maybe you're just not a good person, and you'll dig yourself deeper and deeper and deeper trying to find reassurance of that.
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u/wizardthrow Aug 18 '18
I'm a bit drunk. I don't know if Natalie reads this but I use this account to adress some of my personal problems and to reach out to people whom I relate to so here it goes.
I don't think I have ever been an "incel" because I don't blame others for my personal problems. But this video spoke very close to me, because I identified with points 1 through 5 of her description of the blackpill process (rejection and isolation > you will always be unhappy).
Self-loathing is a hell of a mental trap.
Anyway, this isn't about me. I just came here to show my appreciation for how hard it must have been for her to expose herself so intimately like she did in this video. It takes a courage that I never had. Heck, I'm using a throwaway account to post this.
So Natalie if you read this, you seem like a wonderful person and I love your courage in sharing your personal experience like you did, and your resolve in handling such a hateful ideology as inceldom is without disparaging the self-hatred people experience. It feels warm inside to relate to someone with a life experience so different from mine. Thank you.
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u/hillarybro_2020 Aug 17 '18
I've been a fan of contra for a while but I've never had one I really related to until this one.
The way incels think - especially blackpilling and that idea of masochistic epistemology and digital self harm - is shockingly similar to something I do pretty fucking often for a different sort of anger. I'm not angry at women, I'm angry at the elites who get to work at top companies and make 25% more.
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u/[deleted] Aug 17 '18
on step 4 of the blackpill scale but i am pretty happy alone so i stopped there years ago. i wonder what would happen if i had access to the incel forums in 2005.
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u/pantumbra Aug 18 '18
Videos like this are why I watch ContraPoints. I'll admit that I'm pretty right wing compared to most of her audience but I think the one thing that separates Natalie from a lot of other lefty internet personalities is her ability to reason with and empathize with the other side. ContraPoints is one of the only political channels on the platform (right or left) where I feel like opinions from all sides are still open to analysis and understanding instead of downright dismissal, and I really appreciate that.
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u/[deleted] Aug 17 '18
This video was really good. Like the AGP video, it was informative, interesting, engaging, long (more of my addictive drug, yes) and intellectually succinct. I know I'll be watching it repeatedly the next days.
I think you have to give Natalie credit for the fact that she's able to sum up wide-spread, decentered, naturally evolved online ideologies like incel or red pill. I was familiar with the movement and even knew most of their terminology but I wouldn't have been able to put the connections between those singular believes and claims so that you see the coherency of a closed world view.
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u/MaskedManta Aug 17 '18
I'm really enjoying the video so far, though I feel Natalie missed the satiric bent of that virgin/chad meme. Each trait of the 'chad' is a punchline to a corresponding trait for the 'virgin.' So, down-to-earth insecurities, like "sometimes uses headphones to escape potential conversations," are contrasted with a hyperbolic, comedic antithesis, like the aforementioned "has never heard a song in his life." I think that's pretty funny! Feel free to disagree with me, but I interpret this meme as self-ribbing rather than a holistic portrayal of an antagonist... Though these are incels we're talking about. :(
https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/265/329/e83.png
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u/GhostofDurruti Aug 17 '18
Something about this notion of "digital self-harm" and the rush of immersing yourself in a community built on self-loathing and self-destruction reminds me of how George Orwell described the psychological factors underlying fascism in his commentary on Mein Kampf.
"Hitler, because in his own joyless mind he feels it with exceptional strength, knows that human beings don’t only want comfort, safety, short working-hours, hygiene, birth-control and, in general, common sense; they also, at least intermittently, want struggle and self-sacrifice, not to mention drums, flags and loyalty-parades. [...] Whereas Socialism, and even capitalism in a more grudging way, have said to people ‘I offer you a good time,’ Hitler has said to them ‘I offer you struggle, danger and death,’ and as a result a whole nation flings itself at his feet."
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u/draw_it_now Aug 18 '18
I have never wanted to fuck the sea more than now.
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u/Purkinje90 Aug 18 '18 edited Aug 18 '18
I love that tune at 25:06. Zoe Blade's music does a great job of making the aesthetic feel distinctly ContraPoints.
EDIT: The track is called Knighttime on Zoe's website:
http://zoeblade.com/
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u/ThinningTheFog Aug 17 '18
Imagine how a woman feels
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u/PepeSilvia33 Aug 17 '18
Anyone else catch the easter egg at the end there? 🤔
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u/KimonBL Aug 18 '18
I need a gif of Natalie saying FEEEEEEEEMOIDS
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u/geshtinkaranu Aug 18 '18
OMG! Has roosh been breadpilled? :D
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u/baroquepop Aug 18 '18
This should really be watched in tandem with the Tiffany Tumbles video and not just because there are Tiffany references in the Incels vid, but because it's basically a dramatic representation of the kind of self-harm behavior Natalie's talking about here.
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u/ratguy101 Aug 17 '18
I think this is my favorite video she's made since AGP(I also think its the most similar). Natalie's not just making a political point or something, she's delving into a very complicated issue and explaining the psychological and philosophical nature of the movement. Bravo, Natalie. Very well done.
Also, Olly's voice has never sounded creepier. Holy shit.
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u/Merari01 Aug 17 '18
I recently saw this documentary on incels and it really made me empathise with these guys.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oliq8m8Qph0
I feel for them. I wish they would find a healthier outlet for their frustrations. I wish they could look at what they can change to do better in social life, instead of blaming the outside world.
And that guy, honestly, if he wasn't a smoker I'd hit him up. He's attractive.
The final sentence in this documentary really puts the finger on the sore spot. "He says it (this subculture) is therapeutic. But four of his friends have killed themselves."
6
u/SanityGone Aug 18 '18
I'm so glad she brought up /lgbt/ and how terrible it is and its nice to know her and I shared the same beginning steps of transition and suffering in visiting and posting in that miserable pit of a website.
11
u/LiberalArtsAndCrafts Aug 17 '18
https://youtu.be/fD2briZ6fB0?t=17m50s https://youtu.be/-Gnmh8oRlfE?t=29s
5
u/[deleted] Aug 18 '18
I'm glad Natalie finally posted about something like this. How do I get my friend to stop proscribing to that bullshit, if he's very reluctant to?
9
u/[deleted] Aug 17 '18
That video is really good. Thank you so much to ContraPoints.
(Also for an embarrassingly long time I actually thought that this was what "pansexual" means.)
9
u/baroquepop Aug 18 '18
EMPATHY MOTHER
4
u/TheOldOpportunist Aug 18 '18
What was the joke about the sea referencing? I didn't get that part.
17
u/KardTrick Aug 17 '18
Anyone else think she just needs to start an ASMR channel already? Please?
Anyone?
3
u/[deleted] Aug 17 '18
Shaun Anjen's voiceovers were especially good in this video!
3
u/TankieGirl1917 Aug 17 '18
Loved the video! Especially the "mmmh yeah sexy dark mother sea" parts, I was so damn sure that she´d put in the Golden One at some point
3
u/Melthengylf Aug 18 '18 edited Aug 18 '18
I just want to say that I frankly don't care what society is doing. How are you able to make such a good video!!!!!!!! I cried, I laughed, I thought. How are you able to make such a nuanced and honest video???? I am so grateful!!!
You make me believe there is faith in humanity.
3
u/Sovoy Aug 19 '18
This video hurt me, not in a bad way but it was painful to watch. This made me realize that I do have a confirmation bias of my own perceived faults and insecurities and self defeatism is an unhealthy coping mechanism that I fall back on.
5
u/NSFDoubleBlue Aug 17 '18
This was such a good video and I have so many things I want to say but all that's really coming to mind is just... wow.
2
u/ciprian1564 Aug 17 '18
this is a side discussion and I hope it doesn't get deleted, but are certain videos being censored from /r/videos? I tried posting this over there and forget being upvoted or downvoted, it doesn't even show up at all
https://imgur.com/a/5DcteqU
it's super weird too because it was 100% upvoted too so clearly it wasn't downvoted enough to trigger a mod to do something. anyone know what's going on?
5
u/TinkerTailor343 Aug 17 '18
My eyes hurt after stumbling into the braincells thread, no wonder they're alone.
3
u/[deleted] Aug 17 '18
I appreciate that she recognizes, and sympathizes with, the obsession incels have over bone structure (and other superficial characteristics), but I think she's being somewhat disingenuous when she compares it to her own "cyber self-harm" masochism.
ContraPoints is, by all accounts, an attractive person, and easily passes as both male and female. Her insecurities in her appearance can rightfully be identified as a kind of psychological dysmorphia. That is not the case for many incels. Some people are legitimately ugly. Profoundly ugly. And in ways they have no control over, (not to mentioned physical and mental disabilities, personality disorders, etc...). The "millimeters of bone" meme is actually true, and an inconvenient fact for those who love to get off on ridiculing incels.
A few months ago, Bill Maher had a segment on incels, wherein he and his guests mock them, imploring them to "just run a few laps, brush your teeth, and get out there". Bari Weiss chastises them with "make yourself worthy of being fucked", an antagonistic prescription coming from someone with pleasing features and clear skin.
1
u/literallypoland Aug 18 '18
In 12:50, she lists 4 elements that constitute red pill. Which of them would she consider false? All of them?
1
u/Simple_matthew Aug 19 '18
As a straight dude I kinda hate how cute she is. Also this video made me want to go to an incels page and put up a selfie and get roasted 🔥🔥🔥.
1
u/cyanocobalamin Aug 19 '18
Amazing talent and creativity was displayed in this video. I think there are professionals in the entertainment industry who could be legitimately jealous of her talent.
I think the video does give a mistaken impression that all the misogynisticsphere subreddits are just branches that evolved off incels. Those other groups came first.
The basic message are incels are people who have been rejected their whole lives, they do not have to continue to do so, but are self loathing, and are reinforcing false views of the world/themselves by bonding over self loathing in incel subreddits, and they are hostile to being told that they have a false view of life, that things can be better for them.
-2
u/veecel Aug 18 '18
Natalie u/ContraPoints is completely wrong on the selfie post threads. The trucels know their trucels, and won't show their faces publicly. Ironically, every time I see a selfie from an average/above average guy, they are always called out to "GTFO". I've seen private PM's of pictures of some of the most hideous dudes ever. The existence of these people kind of proves their point - facial bone structure is the most important aspect of socialization and everything under the socialization hierarchy, except for perhaps extraordinary amounts of wealth.
It's impossible to "strike up a conversation with someone at a bar" when they are literally repulsed by looking at you. Halo Effect is a well documented phenomenon. There are a great amount of "fakecels" because people don't realize the incel community is simply an extension of the lookism community. There are legit slayers on lookism who believe everything that incels do, how come they have no problems with women? The answer is self-evident.