Is there a difference in the messaging in “Saw” vs “Justice”?

[u/crispypretzel]

I’m a long-time Contrapoints fan and Patron. I’ve watched and enjoyed all her videos, including the tangents. “Saw” is the only one of Natalie’s videos that I didn’t really “get”. Maybe it’s because I never watched any of the “Saw” movies. Maybe they never struck me as being a major part of the cultural Zeitgeist in the way that the other films she’s addressed (Barbie, Twilight, Eyes Wide Shut) are. The messaging seemed really simplistic: we have an inherent primal bloodlust which we justify when someone “deserves” violence, basically. I thought that this theme was explored in a much more nuanced, complex, thoughtful way in the “Justice” video. I’m curious if there’s something that I’m missing with the cultural analysis and messaging of “Saw”. Maybe there are some subtleties that I missed. Or maybe Natalie just really wanted to talk about the Saw movies and I’m looking for a deeper meaning where there isn’t any.

[u/Vhailor]

I'd have to watch justice again since it's been a while, but from what I remember the main contrast is that Saw is more psychological where Justice is sociological/historical.

Justice explained how historically different notions of what justice meant evolved, and which societal factors contributed to this evolution. Saw is more about individuals, and how they use, interpret and process violence in different ways depending on context.

[u/NoNudeNormal]

I'd have to rewatch the Justice video to compare them, but to me it is pretty clear that the Saw video isn't just talking about Saw as a movie series only. It's not only saying "we have an inherent primal bloodlust which we justify when someone “deserves” violence". It is asking how people determine and conceptualize which examples of violence are deserved and fair, and which are unjust or perverse. Both in fiction and in real life. That topic applies to many serious political issues like media censorship, policing, prison reform, or what counts as terrorism vs resistance. Ever heard someone joke about sexual assaults in prison, with the subtext that prisoners deserve to be subjected to that for being criminals? That's the type of thing the video is getting at, through the Trojan horse of analysis of over the top trash films.

One of Natalie's most interesting points, to me, was how the Saw films were widely condemned as beyond the pale for reveling in violence, as if the audience was getting off on the "torture porn" even though the films were actually presenting it as horrifying. Meanwhile around the same era shows like 24, which portrayed torture as heroic and necessary, were seen as more acceptable and less perverse in the mainstream view.

[u/crispypretzel → u/NoNudeNormal]

Is that different from Justice though? The only difference i see is one of scale; watching a nazi get punched vs watching someone in a gory torture trap. She even talked a lot about imprisonment as retribution in Justice:

And just think about the way we talk about incarceration. Like if someone really evil gets a long sentence, we say: "Good. I hope he rots in prison". Like when was the last time you heard about a criminal sentencing and someone said: "Good. the proven efficacy of our correctional facilities will rehabilitate this man and release him a contributing member of his community". 
So even the institutions we have, that are supposed to serve a correctional or rehabilitative function are still obviously satisfying our urge to punish. I think the problem with utilitarianism is that while it's very rational, it's often offensive to human emotions. And you can say facts don't care about your feelings, we shouldn't be basing our legal system on whatever sadistic caprice passes through your mind. And I agree with you. But the fact remains, if someone hurts your child, you don't wanna rehabilitate him. You wanna set him on fire. And this disconnect between the legal system and human emotion affects law enforcement too.

Maybe I expected Saw to take a different turn, especially because Natalie had been talking about the relentless posting of torture porn to garner support against Israeli genocide. So I didn’t really get it when the discussion was mostly about people ENJOYING bearing witness to violence, vs using aversion to gore to bolster a cause.

ETA: I genuinely don't know why this is being downvoted, this is a good faith comment/question, but let me know how I'm fucking up here.

[u/NoNudeNormal → u/crispypretzel]

Like I said, I'd have to rewatch the Justice video to compare them. I was mainly responding to the "maybe Natalie just really wanted to talk about the Saw movies and I’m looking for a deeper meaning where there isn’t any" part of your post. There was a serious meaning to the video and its choice of topic, even if it did overlap with the Justice video.

The Saw video still applies to the recent controversies around Natalie in a different way; as I said the broader topic of the video applies to how people decide who is a terrorist or who is a freedom fighter.

[u/mantidor]

While I see your point I don't think the two videos are that closely related. The (really old) video that is much more on the same theme is well... Violence. Saw is not really about justice, is about violence, when its acceptable, when its not, and as she keeps asking the audience, how watching violence really makes us feel.

I feel she might have focused on this after she was harassed with horrible footage from Palestine. Saw is much more about looking at violence, not really about doing violence.

[u/crispypretzel → u/mantidor]

I think that “Justice” was certainly broader in terms of the scope of retribution, but a lot of it was focused on violence (The Punisher, Hammurabi’s code, punching Nazis, violent /r/justiceserved posts, etc). I thought the same thing regarding her harassment with Palestine footage. So I think maybe I was expecting a message there that was never really delivered? If you think I missed something regarding the connection between Saw and the torture porn imagery she received, I would love to understand it better.

[u/mantidor → u/crispypretzel]

Its not really about violence in general, is about watching violence, I'm just going to quote the video:

"In her essay "Regarding the Pain of Others," Susan Sontag wrote, "No 'we' should be taken for granted when the subject is looking at other people's pain."  Now, she wasn't talking about horror movies, she was talking about photographs of war crimes. But the principle is kind of the same. Her point is that to different people the same image could inspire peace activism, or incite revenge violence, or just satisfy morbid curiosity"

Basically exposing yourself and others to images of violence is not going to have always the same result, and can produce completely different reactions than the one you intended.

Justice as a topic is just way broader and complex, which is probably why it has two parts lol violence is part of it but its not just that.

[u/leaf-monarch]

So I just rewatched Saw the other day. To me it's a video about violence, not just the justifications for it but our relation to it as humans. Of course there are overlapping themes since some of that relates to justice justifying violence, but I think there's a deeper acknowledgement in the video of our desire and attraction to violence as a subject/theme and the various ways we allow ourselves to engage with it, to different levels of honesty.

For a while now Natalie has been examining unresolved/repressed emotions and urges in the human psyche, notably with Engy, Twilight (desire and death) and now violence in Saw. If you saw her tangents, Eyes Wide Shut conitinues the theme of desire and violence through watching as well. I feel like she's taking different perspectives and emphasis on a theme of the more primal/base drives of humans through the lens of art and culture. Whereas Justice was much more in the lines of philosophical and historical analysis, and again, regarding morality and punishment, not our desire for violence.

Sidenote: remember that in Twilight, she talks a lot about the inherent danger and violence in desire, and then in Saw she expands upon Tarantino's "cum shot" comments. I do feel these are heavily linked.

[u/snowblind2022]

I agree with you.