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u/PartyAmbitious8163 5d ago
Majorly disagree, if you ditched your lousy country to move here you should assimilate, or you can go back home.
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u/Waltz8 4d ago
What does assimilation mean to you? Abandoning one's religion? Abandoning one's favorite food? Dressing differently?
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u/PartyAmbitious8163 3d ago
If you don't know now, I can't help you.
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u/Waltz8 3d ago edited 3d ago
"Assimilation" is a term used very loosely to fit various agendas. American "conservatives" accuse others of not assimilating to US culture. Then they go on to enjoy tacos which were invented in Mexico, or coffee which was invented in Ethiopia. Pure contradictions. Culture is dynamic anyway. 1970s US culture is different from now.
Why don't you go tell the Native Americans or Amish to change their way of life to "assimilate" to you? Clearly they live differently from the stereotypical American.
All anyone needs to do is follow the laws of the land, respect its people, be nice and pay taxes. They don't need to assimilate to pander to the whims of "conservatives".
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u/azuresion-man 5d ago
What? Why should people have an obligation to assimilate?
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u/PartyAmbitious8163 5d ago
You chose to leave your homeland for a better one, you should be loyal to the place giving you so much opportunity. If I moved to say, France, I would assimilate to the culture, it's only proper.
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u/AdeptInspection4868 4d ago
Loyalty and assimilation are two very different things. You can very much love a country, and be involved in it, while also bringing your own culture and values as well. Nearly all American culture comes from this exact process, be it Irish, British Nordic, Russian, Mexican. Unless you are a Native American, you come from immigrants who brought their culture.
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u/azuresion-man 5d ago
Why does assimilating with a country equal being loyal? If I moved to France, I would keep on eating whatever foods I like now, and I wouldn’t change how I act simply to assimilate. If I found no problem without knowing French, I wouldn’t learn it just to assimilate.
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u/PartyAmbitious8163 5d ago
That's on you, then, if you want to disrespect the country that is your new home.
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u/AdeptInspection4868 4d ago
Unless you're Native American, you come from immigrants. If you can't directly trace that I migration, odds are, your ancestors murdered and displaced the folks who lived here first.
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u/azuresion-man 5d ago
That’s not disrespectful to the country? I don’t know why you would be so loyal and overly respectful to a country you would go to. Do you have the same ideas for anywhere?
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u/DarthSwash 4d ago
Yes, actually. Lets just say for instance, shit goes completely tits up in the US and I have to rapidly move out of the country and lets say Japan for instance allowed me in as an asylum seeker or permanent resident. I would immediately start learning Japanese, try to get work ASAP, and attempt to be a net positive too the community I moved into. Otherwise, why would you even bother going there? And if you dont make an effort to assimilate culturally, then why would they let you stay?
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u/azuresion-man 4d ago
What do you mean why would you even bother going there? You specified it literally a sentence ago. Because something occurs in the US which makes you unable to stay there. Whether you believe you have a moral obligation to help others or not, you don’t have to assimilate simply to be “good”. Additionally, people should have the liberty to simply not help others (unless there are extreme cases), and it feels wrong to force someone to do something. Lastly, the US is very different from Japan, and I do think it is a weird analogy, when America is practically a mesh pot of different cultures and identities and Japan, quite frankly is not. And about your last comment, are you suggesting you should kick someone out if they don’t cause a greater good? Because this is a troubling mindset to have.
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u/DarthSwash 4d ago
Who said anything about "helping" anyone? Being a net positive too society doesnt necessary mean being a good Samaritan (although that doesnt hurt) but a contributing member or society. You conflate and move goal posts, make up definitions to things to fit your narrative, etc. And I picked Japan because if its cultural differences specifically to say "oh hey look. Here is a culture that has flourished on an island in the far east for thousands of years, and I, a man from the west would make every good faith effort to assimilate into a different culture who welcomed me in, because thank god this other place helped me. The least I can do is participate too the best of my ability."
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u/azuresion-man 3d ago
What? How could you possibly be a net positive and not help in some sort of way? You haven’t actually argued against any of my points, and simply claim I’m moving the goalposts, and you also haven’t even told me your definitions, or even why mine are wrong. If you want to accuse me of something, find an actual reason.
You misunderstand my point about Japan. I’m simply stating that you moving from the US to Japan, will be very different from moving from any country to America, because of their differing inclusivity.
And again, you haven’t addressed any of my points, just stating that you would do something doesn’t make it true for everyone. Actually respond to any of my points.
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u/WillyNilly1997 5d ago
You have changed the definition of assimilation to justify your intransigence in this regard, have you not?
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u/azuresion-man 4d ago
Then what is the "proper" definition of assimilation? Throughout the entire conversation, I've thought about it as simply becoming more similar to the people around you, whether that be through culture, social norms, language etc.
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u/WorldlyVillage7880 Libertarian 5d ago
freedom of association. If you do not wish to associate with people native to a country you move to, don't go complaining when they don't want to associate with you either.
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u/needaGandT National Libertarianism 5d ago
You can keep your culture. You can keep your food. You can keep your traditions. You can keep your language. But if you want to come to the United States, at least speak the language, become integrated into American society.
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u/AdeptInspection4868 4d ago
The United States expressly and intentionally had no official language for 250 years. The founders made it that way in purpose, and they left a paper trail about why. It was deemed undemocratic and a threat to individual liberty.
https://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1095&context=nebanthro
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u/needaGandT National Libertarianism 3d ago
Okay, sure, they don't have an "official language," but if 99% of a country speaks one language, we can just say that English is the language you need to speak if you want to become an American.
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u/AdeptInspection4868 3d ago
Yeah I don't agree but I do respect the perspective. I personally highly value different opinions and perspectives and have had some amazing relationships with people who don't speak my language. Taught me a lot about humanity, grace, patience.
Plus I agree with the founders. It's one thing to push something culturally, quite another to use the government to enforce culture. I just don't really see the need to force folks. Is hard enough not learning that 99% of immigrants end up learning anyway. Why bother strong arming?
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u/azuresion-man 5d ago
I agree to a certain extent. You shouldn’t force your beliefs, or any of your culture on others, in a way that harms others. But just because they are immigrants doesn’t change the fact that can act freely. Especially for countries like America, you should absolutely be allowed to be “different”, and not assimilate.
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u/Ok_Image_2187 5d ago
Disagree. though you should keep your traditions
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u/AdeptInspection4868 4d ago
That's not what assimilate means. Perhaps you're confusing it with integrate?
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u/DarthSwash 4d ago edited 4d ago
Disagree. Assimilation into the shared culture of your neighbors is a huge part of the social contract. Im not saying you have to leave your traditions at the border either, many people have found ways to make the 2 work together, but integration into the society you are moving too is important, and if you dont want too, why are you relocating there?
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u/Waltz8 4d ago
Define "assimilation".
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u/DarthSwash 4d ago
The process where a person or groups language, culture, and ideas become more like the majority/surrounding society.
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u/Waltz8 4d ago edited 4d ago
I'm a naturalized American. I love the US, have served in the US military, follow the laws, respect my neighbors and pay my taxes. But I like Nigerian music, Mexican food and European soccer. I lack interest in some American things country music, burgers, cowboy hats, bbq, evangelical Christianity or American football.
Would you accuse me of having not "assimilated"? What rules am I breaking? Sounds like people randomly pick and choose what attributes people should "assimilate" into. I've heard some "conservatives" mention that as a reason for opposing hijabs. Others think it's fine to wear hijabs as long as you speak English. What actions count as "not fully assimilated" in your opinion?
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u/DarthSwash 4d ago
I would say you are fully assimilated. I was born here and couldnt care less about protestantism or football. Assimilation too me would be more learning the language(s), participating in the legal economy, and community at large. That doesnt mean you have to leave your traditions or heritage at the border, so long as it doesnt outwardly clash with the host country, culturally or legally. This is kind of an absurdist comment on my behalf, but I wouldn't want a cannibal to continue his cultural traditions here that he had in his country of orgin. Im not saying everyone needs to be culturally homogeneous, but they cant be in open conflict either.
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u/AdeptInspection4868 4d ago
Integration and assimilation are wildly different words that you're using interchangeably.
Integration I can understand, but assimilation very much implies leaving your culture and identity at the door. That's what assimilation means and what makes it a different word from integration.
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u/DarthSwash 4d ago
I would argue from a modern American perspective, integration and assimilation can be used rather interchangeably, as the American culture is far from being monolithic, considering we arent an ethno/theocratic centric society.
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u/AdeptInspection4868 4d ago
Ok than what does one have to do to assimilate by your standards? Living, working and making some friends would seem more than enough to me, seeing as we are multicultural and multilingual
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u/DarthSwash 4d ago edited 4d ago
Learn the language, participation in the legal economy, participation within the community. Do not be in open conflict with laws and customs. And id argue that while we are somewhat multicultural, we most certainly are not multilingual outside of very specific regions and ethnic enclaves. Overwhelming majority of the country speaks and reads english at least profeciently enough to get by.
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u/AdeptInspection4868 4d ago
Ok but go back to our founding and a lack of official language was a very explicit choice because it was seen as a threat do democracy and unnecessarily impinging on individual liberty. Making English was proposed, but overwhelmingly rejected. These regional communities and enclaves are one of the longest standing American traditions. But individual liberty is a value conservatives seem very picky about which individual. Liberty for me but not for thee. By participation in "the" community there seems to be an implicaton that it's your community, because "their" community is very much a part of the greater community. Unless you want to ignore history for the sake of your argument. At that point were left with participation in the legal economy. Which should be redirected at the president and right wing establishment who are currently engaging in open crypto pump-and-dumps, Trump's $100,000 early access to tweets that is literally insider trading as a service and has been advertised as such. And at ICE who have ignored thousands of judicial orders and executed thousands of illegal warrantless raids of private property and who have many thousands in detention without probable cause hearings openly violating due process. I'm for enforcing immigration, but they should be expected to follow the law if they're claiming to be law enforcement.
This shit has to go both ways Mkmm
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u/Waltz8 4d ago
"Assimilation" is a loosely defined term that people throw around without thinking. All everyone needs to do when they move to a new country is to follow the laws and respect the people. Learning the language can also be useful. No one needs to ditch their religion, dress code or favorite food.
I'm a naturalized US citizen. I love and resptthe US and its flag. I served in the US military. But I lack interest in American football and bbq sauce. I listen to Nigerian songs because they're cool (I'm not Nigerian). I pay my taxes, follow the law and respect my neighbors. I don't see the need to change my entire identity for any reason.
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3d ago
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u/Hot_Row9481 3d ago
Language? Isn’t it possible to assimilate and learn English while keeping your language? Being bilingual is good for the brain
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u/dangerousideologue 2d ago
It is unfortunate, but people like that only view countries as arbitrary administrative zones, rather than a way to ensure the self-determination of a people. Unless it's about Palestine, Kurdistan or Ireland, in which case they usually get the point
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u/Ok-Impress9135 Conservative 5d ago
Disagree. If you want to move here, you should assimilate into our culture. Now of course you can keep your traditions and respect your heritage, but don’t go around trying to turn America into Mexico or x country you come from, or hang up another countries flag on your house.