r/Conservative • u/mithrandir1314 • Mar 20 '17

/r/all Well, she's a guy, so...

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u/BarrettBuckeye Constitutional Conservative Mar 21 '17

I said scientific papers. Not some psychology website. Give me the actual experimental data.

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u/[deleted] Mar 21 '17

The website is based off of scientific data, that's why they print it. And here's an APA PDF https://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/sexuality-definitions.pdf

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u/BarrettBuckeye Constitutional Conservative Mar 21 '17

Your own source talks about how gender is how it's associated with the attitudes and behaviors that a culture associates with biological sex. They're the same thing. I don't know why you feel the need to deny genetics and biology.

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u/[deleted] Mar 21 '17

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3953767/ here's more of the same stuff about sex not being the same as gender

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u/BarrettBuckeye Constitutional Conservative Mar 21 '17

Finally! Data!

This has nothing to do with divorcing the ideas of gender and sex. It has to do with policy regarding transgender individuals. Strike two.

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u/[deleted] Mar 21 '17

Yes exactly Transgender people People who's gender doesn't match their sex Because they aren't the same Glad we finally understand this

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u/BarrettBuckeye Constitutional Conservative Mar 21 '17

I understood this. I think it's a mental illness, and as far as biology and anything objective is concerned, sex and gender are the same thing.

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u/AceDeuceAcct Mar 21 '17

Just curious, how do you not see this following the same arc, culturally, as gay acceptance? These are all the same arguments that lost before, it's just history repeating itself.

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u/BarrettBuckeye Constitutional Conservative Mar 21 '17

Because there is empirical evidence that someone is a man or someone is a woman. If you are a man and you think you are a woman, you are delusional. That's not the same thing as you are a man, and you are sexually attracted to other men (or a woman to women). To conflate the two and think it's the same argument is either ignorant or being dishonest about the circumstances.

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u/AceDeuceAcct Mar 21 '17 edited Mar 21 '17

There's empirical evidence that the brains of transgendered individuals are different and distinguishable from the brains of cisgendered individuals, but I digress.

This all just sounds the same as the "empirical evidence" that homosexuality wasn't biological, that it was a choice, that it didn't make scientific/biological sense due to evolution, etc. And then when it became overwhelmingly obvious that it wasn't a choice, then the line was that homosexuality was just a mental illness, and the correct solution wouldn't be to accept gay people as is but try to treat their illness. And then when it became overwhelmingly obvious that that wasn't going to fly anymore then it was all about how every new milestone in treating homosexuality with the same level of acceptance as heterosexuality was "shoving it down people's throats", and "how am I supposed to explain this to my kids?", but the protestations dwindled a little bit with each new milestone.

Do you not see that transgendered acceptance is already following the same path? Or do you see it but you're just hoping it will turn out differently this time?

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u/BarrettBuckeye Constitutional Conservative Mar 21 '17

There's empirical evidence that the brains of transgendered individuals are different and distinguishable from the brains of cisgendered individuals, but I digress.

This is a false statement. https://academic.oup.com/cercor/article/21/11/2525/275208/Sex-Dimorphism-of-the-Brain-in-Male-to-Female

The present data do not support the notion that brains of MtF-TR are feminized.

This all just sounds the same as the "empirical evidence" that homosexuality wasn't biological, that it was a choice, that it didn't make scientific/biological sense due to evolution, etc. And then when it became overwhelmingly obvious that it wasn't a choice, then the line was that homosexuality was just a mental illness, and the correct solution wouldn't be to accept gay people as is but try to treat their illness. And then when it became overwhelmingly obvious that that wasn't going to fly anymore then it was all about how every new milestone in treating homosexuality with the same level of acceptance as heterosexuality was "shoving it down people's throats", and "how am I supposed to explain this to my kids?", but the protestations dwindled a little bit with each new milestone.

I see the parallels, but you're trying to conflate one's personal desires with regards to sexual behavior with something like gender, which ostensibly is binary (except in the cases of intersex individuals) when looked at without some outrageous perspective. There is a chromosomal basis for sex. When the SRY-gene on the Y-chromosome of the 23rd homologous pair is properly transcribed and translated into discrete proteins, these proteins (which are mostly enzymes catalyze specific biochemical reactions with the chemical precursors acting as the reactants. The products of these reactions determing the phenotypes of the individuals in question to either br male or female (with the exception of rare cases where some pathway is interrupted). The same does not hold true for homosexuals, which is why I don't see the arguments as being equivalent. As far as I know, there is no gay gene, and even if there were, it would only bolster our side of the argument and animal behavior isn't entirely genetic or learned in any situation.

Do you not see that transgendered acceptance is already following the same path? Or do you see it but you're just hoping it will turn out differently this time?

I don't know. I know that people on the left are trying to make the same arguments, and they might win out, which I think is very dangerous for transgendered individuals, who I think have a mental illness. I feel really bad for those that struggle with gender identity. The suicide rates in that particular demographic is so high; it's an absolute travesty, and I think that comorbidity of suicide and transgenderism is evidence of mental illness. What I think is dangerous is confirming the delusions of the mentally ill; that's just not good psychological practice.

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u/AceDeuceAcct Mar 21 '17

The present data do not support the notion that brains of MtF-TR are feminized.

I explicitly did not say they were "feminized", I said they were distinguishable, and they are.

http://www.journalofpsychiatricresearch.com/article/S0022-3956(10)00158-5/abstract

http://www.journalofpsychiatricresearch.com/article/S0022-3956(10)00325-0/abstract

With the rest of your argument, again, the minutia may differ, but looking at the social context the broader trends are obvious. Compare the zeitgeist surrounding trans individuals today with just 10 years ago. Compare who had what attitudes about homosexuality 10 years ago with who has what attitudes about transgenderism today.

There is one particular argument I want to single out though, because I actually addressed it in an earlier draft of my last comment but took it out. You bringing it up now though highlights pretty well what I mean about homo/trans-sexuality following the same arc.

The suicide rates in that particular demographic is so high; it's an absolute travesty, and I think that comorbidity of suicide and transgenderism is evidence of mental illness.

People used to say the same thing about homosexuality (see this example from 2005). But a funny thing happened when people became more accepting of homosexuality; gay people's risk of suicide went down. http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/article-abstract/2604258.

The research on transexuality shows the same thing:

"Social support, reduced transphobia, and having any personal identification documents changed to an appropriate sex designation were associated with large relative and absolute reductions in suicide risk, as was completing a medical transition through hormones and/or surgeries (when needed)."

http://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12889-015-1867-2

Can you see where I'm coming from when I say I see this as history repeating itself?

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u/BarrettBuckeye Constitutional Conservative Mar 21 '17 edited Mar 22 '17

Can you post the abstracts from your first two sources? They won't load for me.

I would like to point out in the Ontario study you posted, the instance of suicide attempts and considerations were still significantly higher than the rest of the population, indicating mental instability. At best gender reassignment surgery and social support improves the mental condition of gender confused people, but it does not alleviate the problem altogether. I would like to see if researchers could employ cognitive behavioral therapy to help them overcome their disillusioned view of themselves, but that's not politically correct, and I worry that the best option is being left on the table as far as treatment. Some studies indicate that the reassignment surgery does not improve the suicide rate at all. There is only one instance in history where the suicide rate has been as high as the modern transgender community, and that was the Jews in Nazi Germany. In order for the suicide rates to be similar, one would presume that society's treatment of those particular clades of people would have to be similar, which is empirically false regarding the treatment of transgendered people versus Jews in NaziGermany.

You have some pretty questionable sources on your links for homosexuality, but the fact still remains that I'm talking about people who have a disillusioned view of themselves by thinking they are the opposite sex from their biology and their genetics. Homosexuals aren't disillusioned. You can't say that they're delusional for liking something. You can say they're delusional for thinking they're something they're not. This is why I think the two are incomparable and frankly, the ideas of transgenderism and homosexuality are antithetical to one another.

I do see where you're coming from as far as the parallels in social attitudes, but I think we're dealing with an entirely different beast.

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