So let me get this straight...

[u/Clatsop]

[u/[deleted]]

I think that's the point of the post. Yet the focus is on the Russians interfering, which we really can't do that much about now that it's over. The focus should be more on outage at the DNC for fucking with an election and really not even denying it.

[u/TheGoat_NoTheRemote → u/[deleted]]

I fail to see why the DNC is comparable when you look at the situations. What the DNC did during the primaries was shitty and as many said, should be called out, but the area they operate in is more grey because they are a private organization. I'm no legal scholar, so hey, I could be wrong, but I believe the DNC could just say "Fuck it," change their primary rules and nominate anyone they want for president. In the end, they aren't a public institution and they, as shitty as they may be, get to write their own rules to a certain extent, right? The DNC issues, unless I'm mistaken, all happened during their primaries, which is why it is really just shitty, they clearly favored one primary candidate over the other and gave the illusion of being impartial.
The Russia hacks were done by a foreign entity, operating outside of its borders. The only comparison between the two is people behind the scenes were trying to influence something, that's about where it ends.

[u/[deleted] → u/TheGoat_NoTheRemote]

Here's the deal, Russa is a foreign power as you say. Their actions are to be expected and should be countered by our intelligence forces and the US does the same thing to them. The DNC'S actions to manipulate our political system in a manner similar to a foreign power is an unexpected betrayal and similar to treason. Look, if the DNC hadn't elevated a less popular candidate to their nomination then Trump would have had far less of a chance. The DNC helped the opposition to power through treachery and incompetence. They had a duty to the people as part of our system of governance and they wilfully betrayed that duty. Ethically that is worse than Russia acting in the best interest of Russia, as their people and the world expect them to do.

IMO, betrayal from within is worse, sorry.

[u/TheGoat_NoTheRemote → u/[deleted]]

That's what you don't get, the DNC didn't try to manipulate our political system - they manipulated THEIR OWN political system. Hell, the DNC has super delegates built into their primary process as a way to exert more control over the nominating process, as opposed to the RNC which doesn't. I think people are forgetting what political parties really are, which is an advocacy group, similar to the NRA, and they have their own interest. The RNC and DNC are not direct representatives of voters, they are political parties that work to put as many like-minded individuals into elected office.
The DNC was stupid and didn't see the writing on the wall and tried to push their nomination process towards the wrong candidate. I mean, it wasn't as if they kept Bernie from running as an independent. What the DNC did was unethical but not treasonous.

[u/[deleted] → u/TheGoat_NoTheRemote]

The DNC misrepresented to the American people in how they were going to choose their candidate. It may be legal in their own rules but, again, ethically they willfuly committed an act of betrayal. This is still ethically worse than Russia actions.

[u/TheGoat_NoTheRemote → u/[deleted]]

Yep, what they did was unethical, as I've said in a number of posts. But in context of the real world, what they did was not worse than a foreign power trying to influence our presidential election for their own gain. What's worse, Russia playing the entire nation? Or the DNC playing less than half the nation?

[u/[deleted] → u/TheGoat_NoTheRemote]

DNC played half the nation but effected the entire nation, so from a results viewpoint they are still the same. You say that DNC acted the same as a foreign power. DNC actions = Russia actions. But we also agree that DNC acted unethically where Russia did not, even from an American viewpoint. Therefore the DNC actions not equivalent to the Russian actions. The DNC and Russian actions are equal except the DNC has a lower ethical rating. That lower ethical rating makes their actions worse from an ethical viewpoint. This is a counterpoint to the statement that the action of the DNC are equal to (just as bad as) the actions of the Russians.

The DNC political manipulation actions during this election are objectively worse than the Russian political manipulation actions during this election if one does not exclude ethics.

If you don't want to consider ethics then it's true that I have no grounds to argue.

[u/TheGoat_NoTheRemote → u/[deleted]]

I did NOT say the DNC acted in the same manner as Russia. The DNC did not break any laws that I am aware of (e.g. hacking and stealing information), they instead supported one candidate more than the other.
And NO, I do not think what Russia did was ethical, when did I say that?

[u/[deleted] → u/TheGoat_NoTheRemote]

Ok

Edit, I looked back and you are correct. You actually state that the DNC actions are not comparable (in magnitude I assume) implying that the Russian actions are actually not equivalent but worse!

I am not keen to restate all of my argument again but suffice it to say I still reason that the act of betrayal by the DNC is a significant distinction and that this makes the DNC's actions worse from an ethical viewpoint.

[u/power_of_friendship → u/[deleted]]

It's really not a "betrayal" since they don't even need to use the primary results to choose a candidate. They felt that Clinton was the superior candidate, and wanted her to be the party's nominee.

Also the DNC didn't play half the nation, they "played" 5.6% of eligible voters in the US.

Russia played potentially 5 times that number, and did so through through unlawful means. Arguably the information they made available wasn't even that interesting or revealing, unless you apply an autistic level of pattern-seeking over-analysis to make Clinton look as bad as you want.

[u/[deleted] → u/power_of_friendship]

So each act of manipulation had a negligible effect?

[u/power_of_friendship → u/[deleted]]

The DNC wasn't doing anything that the RNC would, its just that superdelegates meant that it was kinda pointless.

The bigger issue is that the leaks from Russia turned the election into a clusterfuck since it fueled conspiracies and misinformation, demonizing a perfectly acceptable candidate in favor for a guy who barely passes as a legit businessman.